So I think I understand where you are coming from. Any clubs other than the two with central states suck. Even if good players come from other clubs it is because of what those kids do on their own, not what their home clubs did. But I am trying to figure some things out that I hope you can help me out with.

1) How does going to Chicago and beating up on A1 caliber teams help in the kids development?

2) If a kid is going to all those things on his own that you mention, how does a central states club help? He can continue to all those things (camps, stick and puck, dryland, etc) on his own.

3) What does Tier II matter anyway, no kid has ever been drafted by anyone while they were at Tier II. So it is all just for fun if you are tier II.

You seem like a really smart guy and I appreciate your help.

The only clubs that suck are those whose members only play for them when they are forced too. They are the clubs whose members leave them in droves on an annual basis. They are the clubs that can't figure out that they are the cause of their own problems. They are the clubs that can only get ahead when they tear down and blame everyone else. They are the clubs that must change the rules to survive. They are the clubs that must merge with other clubs to find enough coaches and decent players to compete.

As for A1 CS teams, yes there are some weak CS teams but there are also some teams that can hang with a lot of AAA teams. You can get better playing better teams but you can also get better playing some weaker teams if you are smart about it. One team is always going to be the best team. Does that mean that team didn't get any better during the season because they only played weaker teams? But really kids get better more in practices than games.

I don't follow your logic with players doing necessary things on their own to get better. Because they do that they might as well stay at home? No they want to play/practice with better players and coaches and they don't care to play with players and for coaches at their home club if they are not forced to.

Tier II - only for fun? Well fun is a must for anyone who aspires to be successful. But fun and Tier II do not spell the end of anyone's hockey career. The Bandits are Tier II. You think they've sent a few on their way to college scholarships and even an NHL draftee (Pat Maroon) in the last couple of years? But isn't merely striving to do your best, to become your best justification enough to attempt to rise to higher levels of play?

But you want to take that away from kids because the opportunity threatens your club's existence. You will never understand that it is the kids and the families that make the club. Not vice-versa!

Then if it is about development you can have the Affton guy agree to forego regional and national competition okay? I mean that isn't at all why players move to your club so it shouldn't affect anything, right?

These players can still move to your club to get all that great coaching from Mike Hawkins and Chase Ernst etc. and still play in your Chicago league on an all star team but just not monopolize the USA Hockey national tournaments.

Affton would have to change their ad copy but they can just use more of their coaching staffs resume to fill the page in Hockey Stop.

You okay with that?

You people that are against Central States just don't get it. You can not deny that St. Louis is sending more kids to more places to play more hockey then ever before. AAA is fed by Central States who is fed by AA who is fed by A1 Ect. The fact that your home club may be losing 3,4 or even 5 kids per age level is not what is killing your clubs. What is killing your clubs is the fact that you are not pulling in new players at the grass roots level. You are not taking care of the average players that are playing in your programs. You are losing more kids that just drop out of hockey all together then you are to the higher level clubs. This is why you get all of these Bad coaching comments. When you have players that are out to just have fun, but the coaches don't have a clue, then players and especially parents wonder why they are wasting all their time and money playing for the same goof year after year. If your clubs won't listen to the consumers, then you have a lose- lose situation. Of course that means that the membership need to be heard, but if you attained a parents meeting at any of the clubs, you will see exactly what the problem is. You have 15-20 parents from the entire organization show up for the meeting. And i'll put my money on the fact they aren't the same people that are on here bitching.

I have NEVER seen a post that says Affton or CF develope the best players in there travel programs. What is always said is that there is more developement at these CS programs. That is exactly what is supposed to happen. The parents spend more money the players get more ice time and the teams play better competition. If anything, you would think that the people from Affton and Chesterfield would be the ones up in arms because the Central States team wearing their logo are made up of more players from other clubs then their own club. I don't understand why the clubs don't use the advancement of their players to Central States and AAA as a recruiting tool much like the AAA team does when they advertise that they have sent so many kids to play D1 or Juniors.

To the Affton homer, lets look at this year at the bantam level. Your AA won the end of season and got to play your bantam major cs team to see who would represent MO. at districts. The CS destroyed the AA team that was comprised of your districted talent only. I know for a fact that 4 of the kids on the CS team were from the club my son plays for, thats almost 25% for a club other than yours. No telling how many CS kids were from the other shitty clubs around town. I would to know what that says about "your" talent when they are destroyed by kids from other clubs.

How can MOAM possibly let a team "from" Missouri represent the state when it has nothing to do with the leagues provided by MOAM. I would gess that if CS had to play within district guidelines like everyone else and not get a 50% chace to automatically represent Mo. that it would wither and die here.
I say wake MOAM and get rid of CS here and not let Hazelton get things his way all th time!

You cannot suggest that the problems at the shitty clubs come from within. They won't hear any of it. It is not possible. It would mean an upheaval of the leadership and that can never happen.

The problems must be external. It must be unfair treatment. It must be better options outside the club that we must eliminate. Transfers out at Mite or Squirt? Prevent it! Central States? Eliminate it or cripple it or let everybody play to water it down so it becomes less relevant and goes away.

We don't get it, but they sure do!

The better athletes/players naturally migrate to the better teams. Those same players gradually learn that each can progress--individually and as a unit--and can be more successful with deeper talent to support one another. The remaining talent is diluted across many teams and are predictably mediocre. If my kid could hang, he would want to play Tier 1 or one of the CS teams. Detractors of this logical and predictable process and reality are self-serving morons. DO you really want St Louis to have nothing but a bunch of mediocre teams without any standouts.......? C'mon folks, get real.....CS/Tier 1 is working in the marketplace as regards its intended mission...........and the benders have a hockey home, as well. No worries.

Why are the numbers down at Chesterfield and Affton if you remove the OTT players from the last 5 years?

Explain that away.

Do give us these numbers over the last five years. And how do they compare to every other club's numbers over the last five years.

7:07pm Just so you know the AA team did quite well actually. They only lost 3-1 in the first game vs CS, but then in the second game, the psycho general had to play his kid 3/4 of the game so they could win, at the expense of others ice time of course. The second game was like 7 or 8 to nothing, as the coaches kid sucked up the ice time.

Hey shitty club guy, you are right about most things. The system is working and players are getting developed. The only problem I have with your thoughts is the way you act like affton and cha are such well run machines and the rest of the clubs suck because they have central states teams and kids want to play for that and ott out there.

Those two clubs have something exclusively that many kids want. The have their own little oligopoly going and good for them. But to ramble on about how because kids want to participate in that makes their own club shitty and makes the clubs superior is just stupid.

First of all 10:48 it would be nice if you could put together some sentences that make sense. The other thing is that your players don't need to one time transfer to Affton or CF to play central states. I don't know of one player who OTT to play AA hockey in order to go out for the Central States team the next year. And all of the CS players know that there is no need for them to OTT to play on the team. And according to your own admission all of the CS teams have large numbers of kids from other clubs. Secondly, Nobody comes on here telling you how great Central States is until idiots like you try to attack the program. Call Barack, maybe he can make it all fair for you and your little bender.

Watch yourself there! Don't say anything bad about Obama or you'll get barred from England!

Your response is predictable and tired. If you cut down central states it is because my little bender did not make it. I did not say central states is a bad thing. I know of several people who wishes they could take back their one times to chesterfield and affton. But, you have to lie in the bed you make.

I am curious as to the last 3 or 4 years what the number of one times have been to affton and chesterfield. Anyone have the one time figures.

It is undisputable that over the last ten years St Louis Hockey has put more kids into Jr's and college than ever before. We have kids being drafted and playing pro. The AAA program has nationally top ranked teams. We have won national championships at tier I and II. All during the era of Central States. On the other hand, it is undisputable that clubs that have been around for over thirty years are folding up. It is also undisputable that the CS programs do a great job of combining talent, not developing it. If in the end there are 1000 fewer kids playing hockey in St Louis is that a worthwhile price to pay to accomplish the above successes.

Bullshit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

After considering the #'s of players at these 2 clubs, the positives and negative's the merger could create it seems logical to combine atleast at the AA level. For too long CS has been considered a level that Affton, St. Peters, and Chesterfield offer and that other club's do not. This is not the truth. The truth is CS is a level that players from all clubs can go and play at a level higher than AA. With that I would also add that I support and would suggest trying out for one of the 2 teams offered at that level. The experience is worth while. I suggest it not be refered to Affton & Chesterfield, maybe St. Louis north and south. Then people wouldn't argue the same old auguement that some clubs aren't developing or they're stealing our best players ect. Face it Webster's & Kirkwood's population has fewer kid's every year. Affton's is'nt much better. Creating level playing grounds only would make Mo hockey more competetive and fun for all. A merger of these 2 club's would be a first step toward that goal. What would be wrong with 5-7 teams of even talent instead of 8-10 teams with 2 teams winning 2-3 games. The merger would atleast temporarily stop the ott to Affton & Chesterfield from these 2 clubs. A win - win. If what I'm suggesting is not true, consider in thought only, of having Webster field one of the 2 CS teams and watch where the OTT go. Affton has done a great job with CS but if any other club would take Affton CS program the coaches, players and even though it's not neccessary to do so, the OTT's also would go to that club. Kirkwood & Webster are just looking to the future, it's not about just doing your job coaching it's about the #'s in your organization. That # keeps getting smaller and smaller and this is the best solution no question. Look at the enrollment at these birth years at these area schools. Affton is surviving on ott counts, Meramec, Chesterfield & St. Peters have loads of kid's. This merger is good for Mo hockey....I hope this helps you figure it out, I also changed the message title.

the entire system needs to be revamped, it is outdated and a detriment to the sport in St. Louis. Who has the balls and time to take it on?

From USA Hockey...player registration stats

Season # Players Coaches Officials Total
2007-08 468,202 54,302 26,047 548,551
2006-07 457,038 56,383 25,978 539,399
2005-06 442,077 58,593 26,599 527,269
2004-05 445,245 59,957 26,648 531,850
2003-04 449,610 59,508 26,321 535,439
2002-03 446,328 57,595 26,445 530,368
2001-02 442,725 57,321 25,327 525,373
2000-01 439,140 56,170 24,223 519,533

I thought initially that numbers were trending down; however, that does not appear to be the case. Given the above, it seems clear to me that ALL the clubs along with Mohockey need to do a better job of getting the little ones to the rink. You guys can debate whether CS is helping or killing the remaining clubs in St. Louis but eventually if a real effort isn't made to get the young kids and parents interested in the game, clubs will continue to die.

Some thoughts:

FREE initial LTP program for kids 4-7. Take a small portion of club dues and set it aside for your association's LTP program. Approach area rinks for ice donation...sell the rinks on the idea that it will increase revenues for the rink through future games and birthday parties ;). Approach the Blues and ask if they have any players willing to show up at a LTP or two.

Equipment rentals for these kids...provide for free through an association used equipment drive (who doesn't have a ton of equipment stacked in the garage or basement?) or charge a nominal fee. I recall the old Comets program doing this. Approach the equipment mfgrs to see if they have any discount programs for beginners.

Make the LTP an event. Perhaps a skills competition and on ice awards ceremony. I'm normally against giving every participant a trophy but in this case perhaps a graduating certificate to all participants and announce their name over the PA like they do in the SHOW. By participating in the program, they have truly attempted to achieve one of sports' most difficult skills. Show the kids how fun the game can be.

Finally, IMO, people will gravitate to where the best programs are offered be it work, school, sports, etc. That is the cold, harsh reality. The ones who do not "get" the opportunity to do so have one of two options...do nothing and moan, or do something about it. Relative to hockey, ALL youth clubs from GRHL on up (or AAA on down) can continue to improve because sooner or later there will be another dog nipping at their heels.