For the guy talking about the late bloomers who make it to the NHL or at least implying that you can be marginal midgets and somehow make it to the NHL you are full of it for a few reasons. Numer one is the age of the kids when they are drafted.

...To be more specific, players who turn 18 by September 15 and are not older than 20 by December 31 are eligible for selection. In addition, non-North American players over the age of 20 are eligible.

What this means of course is you can only be drafted if you are 18-20. The NHL team retains your rights for two years UNLESS you play NCAA hockey at which case they retain your rights for 30 days after your final year of hockey.

I am not denegrating the number of kids who are making it to the NHL from this area, it is staggering and a great thing for this city. But, it was not because they were late bloomers or not incredibly good at early ages.

You want to talk about late bloomers at baseball or football and it does happen there. But that is just not the way it is in hockey.

By the time you are a junior or senior year in high school EVERYONE who has made it from this area is doing one of three things:
1) Already committed to a D1 school-
2) Playing in the USHL
3) Playing in the NAHL

Often a kid who has already committed to a D1 will give option 2 or 3 a try in high school.

There are a lot of people throwing away big money to chase a dream that is not happening. It is your right, the blue print for making it has been established and being a late bloomer is not one of them.

Your post is pointless and unresponsive. A North American player can make it to the NHL after age 20 if he is not drafted. He can make it as an unrestricted free agent. In other words, he is free to entertain offers from any NHL team. So, late bloomers do have a chance, know-it-all.

You are absolutely right. There have been undrafted NHL players who made it to the NHL. A lot of people like to talk about Gino Cavallini who was an undrafted player. However, Gino did play JR A in high school and he also earned a scholarship to a major D1 program (bowling green).

I would not consider playing JR A in high school as being a late bloomer. Do you consider playing JR A in high school as being a later bloomer?

You are correct in that kids take longer times to develop, but my point is that you have to be a damn good player at midgets (playing Jr A or having earned a D1 scholarship) to make it. You name me one player in the NHL who did not make it the NHL that way except for the foriegn born players.

Face it, you gotta be a stud a midgets to have a chance.

I'm not the original poster you were initially responding to. I just wanted to point out that you conveniently left out an option that gives the late bloomers hope all in an effort to convince others that the poster to whom you were reponding did not know what he was talking about - when, in fact, he was making a valid point.

I don't have time to research the background of every North American NHL player to determine whether they were all stud midgets. I do know that there are a heck of a lot of players in other major sports who were not stud athletes at age 16 and 17. I just don't know why hockey would be any different. In fact, if all the NHL players were stud midgets that just tells me that the NHL is artifically limiting the talent pool from which they are selecting their players.

Once again, we are not talking about other sports. This is a hockey board. The original point was and is now, if your kid is not a stud a midgets he aint going anywhere with hockey. You say by proving there are NHL's who were free agents (but where still studs at midgets) you somehow seem to think my point is wrong. That is some wierd logic on your part. Even the players who were not drafted were STUDS at midgets.

I will ask the question very simply, once again. Here it comes....

Do you think a kid at midgets playing Jr A is a late bloomer?

See how simple that question is? A simple yes or no will do.

Another very simple question is where should the NHL be looking for the skipped over talent?

They are drafting kids from european leagues, the Ontario Hockey League, The Western Hockey League, The Quebec Major Junior Hockey League, USHL, WCHA, National Team Development Program, Alberta Junior Hockey League, Eastern Junior Hockey League, CCHA, Central Junior Hockey League, Directly out of high school, etc.

So please tell me where you think the other NHL quality players might be hanging out?


Look this is very simple. Very few are doing anything with hockey. IF your kid is a stud at midgets he has somewhat of a chance but has to keep developing. If he is not a stud by the time he is out of high school, there is NO chance of him doing anything with hockey except some hockey which hopefully gets him a little trim in college.

Kurtis Mclean is an NHL player who was not a stud as a midget. He is your classic late bloomer. He played Division III hockey. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

guy hebert was not a stud as a midget. He played Div II hockey; afterwhich, he played for the Peoria Riverman and later played for the Blues and Ducks.

Wrong again my friend. He played in the Ontario Provincial Jr A league as a midget. Once again, if you played JR A as midget, you were a stud at midgets.


Nexxxxxxttt guess please....

who gives a fuck

You are a bit too quick to move on. I really don't hear of too many stud Jr. A players demoting themselves to div III college hockey. What Jr. A team did Mclean play for as a midget? Don't tell us the league he played in; tell us the team he played for.

And what about Guy Hebert?

McClean played for the Oshawa Generals. You are welcome, glad I could help out!

Jr A as a midget!

Hmm! Me thinks you are making stuff up. I don't see my guy on this list. You are wrong, chump.


List of Oshawa Generals alumni to play in the National Hockey League.

Bryan Allen
Mike Amodeo
Dave Andreychuk
Jason Arnott
John Arundel
Chris Beckford-Tseu
Jan Benda
Frank Bennett
Harvey Bennett
Adam Berti
Nick Beverley
Don Biggs
Chuck Blair
Dusty Blair
Ivan Boldirev
Eric Boulton
Fred Brathwaite
Gerry Brown
Ron Buchanan
Steve Cardwell
Wayne Cashman
Ray Ceresino
Todd Charlesworth
Lex Chisholm
Joe Cirella
Cal Clutterbuck
Kevin Colley
Les Colvin
Jim Conacher
Larry Courville
Mike Craig
Dale Craigwell
Bobby Crawford
Floyd Curry
Jeff Daniels
Buck Davies
Bob Dawes
Dean Defazio
Dale DeGray
Val Delory
Alex Delvecchio
Jim Drummond
Ben Eager
Frank Eddolls
Bill Ezinicki
George Ferguson
Lee Fogolin Jr.
Rick Foley
Mike Fountain
Iain Fraser
Bob Froese
Dick Gamble
Dave Gans
Paul Gardner
Tyrone Garner
Lee Giffin
Trevor Gillies
Bob Gladney
Dan Gratton
Gilles Gratton
Brent Grieve
Bep Guidolin
Jeff Hackett
Paul Harrison
Chris Hayes
Bill Heindl
Ike Hildebrand
Floyd Hillman
Dan Hinote
Larry Hopkins
Nathan Horton
Charlie Huddy
Jim Jackson
Lou Jankowski
Ross Johnstone
Tony Joseph
Claude Julien
Doug Keans
Bob Kelly
Rick Kessell
Derek King
Brian Kinsella
Nick Knott
Steve Konroyd
Joe Kowal
Pete Laframboise
Leo Lamoureux
Mitch Lamoureux
Rick Lanz
Mike Lenarduzzi
Eric Lindros
Ted Lindsay
Bill Lochead
Ross Lowe
Charlie Luksa
Jack Lynch
Calum MacKay
Shawn MacKenzie
John MacLean
Jeff MacMillan
Ian MacNeil
Bud MacPherson
Greg Malone
Jud McAtee
Norm McAtee
Tom McCarthy
Bob McCulley
Brian McGrattan
Kirk McLean
Sean McMorrow
Chris McRae
Bryan McSheffrey
Roland Melanson
Rick Middleton
Kevin Miehm
Dean Morton
Gus Mortson
Gord Murphy
Lee Norwood
Hank Nowak
Fred O'Donnell
Terry O'Reilly
Danny O'Shea
Bobby Orr
Jim Paek
Rob Pearson
Nathan Perrott
Andrew Peters
Steve Peters
Wayne Primeau
Dave Pulkkinen
Nelson Pyatt
Brad Ralph
Paul Ranger
Greg Redquest
Ed Reigle
Pat Ribble
Phil Samis
Marc Savard
Chuck Scherza
Norm Schmidt
Richard Scott
Travis Scott
Sean Shanahan
Peter Sidorkiewicz
Harry Sinden
Jarrod Skalde
Ken Smith
Sid Smith
Rick St. Croix
Greg Stefan
Bud Stefanski
John Stevens
Bob Stewart
Barry Sullivan
Frank Sullivan
Peter Sullivan
Don Sylvestri
Dale Tallon
Tony Tanti
Billy "The Kid" Taylor
Kirk Tomlinson
John Tripp
Pete Vipond
Jeff Ware
Barry Wilkins
Butch Williams
Sean Williams
Dunc Wilson
Wally Wilson
Stephane Yelle
Rod Zaine

Well, Kurtis played JR A but not for Oshawa.


Kurtis McClean played for the Trenton Sting in the OPHJL.

Yeah, he sure did, but he was 20 years old when he played for the trenton sting. He was born in 1980 and played for the Trenton Sting in 2000-2001.

Just face it, bub - you don't have to be a stud at the midget level to make it to the NHL.

Kurtis was 19 when he made the team. WHich means the year before making this team he was a midget. I gaurantee you that he did not make it in the OPJHL while being a "decent" midget player the year before. Neither of know where he played the year before. But we do know the hockey data bases do not track teams like our amatuer blues. There was no way he made it to the OPJHL unless he was a stud on a midget team the year before.

Still was a stud at midgets. Nexxxxxxt.

You are starting to sound like a fool. He did not play Jr. A as a midget. I don't even accept your premise that all Jr. A midget-aged players are studs. And I certainly don't accept your circular argument that because Mclean played in the NHL he must have been a stud as a midget because you cannot make it to the NHL unless you were a stud as a midget. Good grief, mashed- potato head, just accept the fact that you are wrong.

No he did not play JR A as a midget. Did I say he did? But now we are getting somewhere when you say that Jr A midget players are not necessarily studs. So please give us your definition of what a stud midget player is?

Kurtis played a whopping four games in the NHL and did not make it until he was 27 or 28.

I am basing him being a stud at midget at the fact that the year after he was a midget he scored 37 goals in 47 games in the OPJHL. Wherever he played the year before, he was a stud. And that had NOTHING to do with him playing four games in the NHL. It has everything to do with how good the OPJHL is and how successful he was in it. No circular reasoning there.

I am not wrong. But I have to give you credit, this is probably one of the most marginal NHL players of all times (4 NHL games) but he was still a stud at midgets.

The point I think he's trying to make is that after 20 your Junior career is over and there is no where else to develop unless your playing college hockey.

My guess it would be tough to be off the NHL radar at 20 then at 21 and 22 suddenly become a stud. It may have happen but I'm sure the chances of doing it are like winning the lottery.

lets just keep rambling on

Hmm! You never said he played Jr. A as a midget? You be a crazy fool. That's all you have been saying, blabber mouth.

Now that I have shown you a person who has made it to the NHL without having been a stud as a midget, the cry babies are now denigrating his NHL career.

I know you hockey purists want to think that there is something special about hockey versus the other major sports, but the truth is that you could take a 16 year old kid who has never played hockey before (but is nonetheless an excellent athlete) and make an NHL player out of him in 5 years. The best athletes don't play hockey - they play football, basketball, and baseball. Hockey players, with some exceptions, are not very tough athletes; they have been spoon fed too long.

Hmm! You never said he played Jr. A as a midget? You be a crazy fool. That's all you have been saying, blabber mouth.

...I never said he played Jr A as a midget. I said he had to be a stud and he was. He scored almost a goal a game in the OPJHL the year after midgets, he HAD to be a standout midget stud. Never said he was JR A, nice memory..




Now that I have shown you a person who has made it to the NHL without having been a stud as a midget, the cry babies are now denigrating his NHL career.

...I can only assume you are serious here. An NHL "career" that consisted of four, yes count them, four whole games. Wow, what a career!!!!!


I know you hockey purists want to think that there is something special about hockey versus the other major sports, but the truth is that you could take a 16 year old kid who has never played hockey before (but is nonetheless an excellent athlete) and make an NHL player out of him in 5 years.
....another funny one. It has never happened, but why dont you do it and prove us all wrong....


The best athletes don't play hockey - they play football, basketball, and baseball. Hockey players, with some exceptions, are not very tough athletes; they have been spoon fed too long.

....perhaps your funniest part of the post. Hmmmm, getting stiches on the bench, getting teeth knocked out and not coming out of the game, getting placed on tryout teams and the basis of who you know you are going to fight, yep sound like some real candy asses to me. Real spoon fed people to me....



Buddy, just please keep the insanity coming.

Is this guy serious? Your going to really try to argue that you can take any 16 year old exceptional athlete, strap him in some skates and he will be NHL bound in 5 years? I hope your being sarcastic. The arguement that the best athletes are football,basketball, and soccer players is completely insane. The last time i checked..any 16 year old kid could strap on some shoes and run down a field and catch a ball. The same applies for most other sports. Hockey,however, requires a skill that not everyone possesses. Skating is not something any 16 year old can do. Running is. Your arguement has no valid points

I think the guy with the "late bloomer" argument just does not know how it works. Because he talks about other sports with the inference if it is that way in other sports it must be that way in hockey. Later he states that if in fact he is wrong and it does not work that way in hockey then hockey is really missing the boat on some good players. When asked where should the NHL be looking for players that they are not already he offers nothing.

I believe he is just wanting to go with that romantic notion like hey, Michael Jordan got cut from his high school basketball team and went on to become the greatest (arguably) player of all time. So how dare you say that kids have no chance to make it because Michael did. Really has nothing to do with hockey.

Hey that guy can believe in the easter bunny or santa claus or whatever. But the way it works in hockey is the way it works.

Most of the best hockey players (not all) are those players who not only play hockey at the AA level, but also play baseball, basketball, soccer, and football. If you are truly searching out the best talent, you don't look for kids playing on pee wee and midget AAA teams because the vast majority of those kids are incredibly soft athletes.

Now, the way hockey is set up in St. Louis and elsewhere in the United States is that the rich kids play AAA hockey. Because it is cost efficient for scouts to focus on AAA kids because of "show case" tournaments (what a joke those are) that allow scouts to evaluate talent without really having to travel, a self-perpetuating process is put into place where AAA kids are spotted and AA kids are not. The vast majority of these "show case tournaments" expressly prohibit AA teams from entering, even those AA teams capable of evenly competing against and sometimes beating AAA teams.

With all of that said, it is understandable that you want to divert the conversation to another topic in that you got your clocked cleaned on the last topic regarding the myth that all NHL players were once midget studs.

10:59 - L.T.P. to NHL in 5 years.... You need to open an Academy. There has to be a market for that. I think you have found your niche!!!

Thanks for the commedy, my Monday was going slow!!!

Actually no, there is no diversion of anything. I said McLean had to be a stud midget and he did. You got your clock cleaned except for pointing out that four game "NHL Career". LOL, that shit is funny.

The other dude is serious, there are people forking out 10 grand a year at midgets without any real possibility of playing in the nhl. Why dont you open up the learn to play to NHL in five year school. You can retire with Bill Gates type money. Seriously dude, I would go for it if I were you....

Are you mentally ill? You have been yapping for two days about how nobody can make it to the NHL unless he played Jr. A as a midget, unless they were offered a D1 scholarship. You challenged me to name a N. American player who had not gone this route. I named Kurtis Mclean. You responded by saying he did play Jr. A as a midget and tried to convince everybody that he played for the Oshawa Generals (Bobby Orr's former Jr. A team). When I showed that you were lying about Mclean playing for the Generals, you then said that he played for the Trenton Sting. When I showed that Mclean did not play for the Trenton Sting as a midget, your insane response was to argue that Mclean must have been a stud hockey player as a midget if after his midget years he played for the Trenton Sting. Huh? The point is that Mclean was a late bloomer.

I am finished with this topic as arguing with you is like arguing with a can of paint. You are a rubberhead.

Are you mentally ill? You have been yapping for two days about how nobody can make it to the NHL unless he played Jr. A as a midget, unless they were offered a D1 scholarship. You challenged me to name a N. American player who had not gone this route. I named Kurtis Mclean. You responded by saying he did play Jr. A as a midget and tried to convince everybody that he played for the Oshawa Generals (Bobby Orr's former Jr. A team). When I showed that you were lying about Mclean playing for the Generals, you then said that he played for the Trenton Sting. When I showed that Mclean did not play for the Trenton Sting as a midget, your insane response was to argue that Mclean must have been a stud hockey player as a midget if after his midget years he played for the Trenton Sting. Huh? The point is that Mclean was a late bloomer.

I am finished with this topic as arguing with you is like arguing with a can of paint. You are a rubberhead.

When does your hockey school start? I know of dozens of people that will pay you anything. Please let us know.

I think most of them will expect more of a "NHL career" than four games though.

Are you mentally ill? You have been yapping for two days about how nobody can make it to the NHL unless he played Jr. A as a midget, unless they were offered a D1 scholarship. You challenged me to name a N. American player who had not gone this route. I named Kurtis Mclean. You responded by saying he did play Jr. A as a midget and tried to convince everybody that he played for the Oshawa Generals (Bobby Orr's former Jr. A team). When I showed that you were lying about Mclean playing for the Generals, you then said that he played for the Trenton Sting. When I showed that Mclean did not play for the Trenton Sting as a midget, your insane response was to argue that Mclean must have been a stud hockey player as a midget if after his midget years he played for the Trenton Sting. Huh? The point is that Mclean was a late bloomer.

Wow, you either have a very bad memory or are just a dumb ass. Here is what I said, follow along closely....

1) Everyone from this area who has made it has either at midgets played JR A or had a D1 scholarship secured

2) Everyone who has made it to the NHL has been a stud at midgets. See the difference? I never said no one can make to the NHL unless they played JRA or D1 scholarship at midget. I said everyone from this area so far has been JR A or D1. Then, I mentioned you had to be good at midgets and everyone from the NHL has been. You ran those two thoughts together and superimposed to them to I said JR A or D1 for everyone who made it. I never said that.
Maybe you got confused as you put out the example of Maroon not being a stud at midgets and it was pointed out he was MVP of his JRA team.

3) You then say McClain was a "late bloomer". I point out that at 19--not 20 like you said- but at 19 he made the OJPHL and scored nearly a goal a game. Wherever he played at midgets the year before he had to be studly. Again, I NEVER said someone had to play JR A at midgets. I said a kid had to be a stud and he was.

By NHL standards he was a late bloomer. However, he was a stud at midgets.

I will agree that he was a late and less than exciting bloomer, 2 stints of two games when he was in his late 20's. Guess he could have used more of your hockey school.

This whole time you have been trying to prove that you must be a stud in midgets to make it into the nhl. That arguement is not an arguement..you have to be a stud period to make it to the nhl..why is midgets relevant? Are you trying to reassure yourself that your kid is going to the show because he is a 'stud' midget?

Take him to the 5 year school..thats all the reassurance youll need pal.

No, just saying there have been some studs at the younger ages who by the time they got to midgets were not that good anymore.

Midgets is where the rubber meets the road.

There are a lot of players that played 3 to 6 years of minor league hockey that weren't drafted and made an NHL roster at one time or another. The definition of "making it" is making a NHL roster and a lot of undrafted free agents are indeeed late bloomers.

Guess we need to define what a late bloomer is. There are certainly a lot of players who were not drafted and made it to the NHL. Is a kid who played d1 hockey a late bloomer?

Only the players that grow into a mans body by 17-18 are really looked at for the draft. Personally if I had played high level travel hockey at a young age, I would of not been looked at until I was 20 to 23. Thats when I grew into my mans body.No way I would of been looked at from 17 to 18 like players drafted now.
The draft goes by and persistance,heart,skill and desire and of course growing into a mans body at a later age is one good definition of a late bloomer.

What makes an NHL player vs an AHL player?