if you could have any factory uncut sheet. would you cut it (professionally so they would pass grading) or keep it original? what cards would you want?

i would want a sea raider sheet. i would not cut it.
i would take a sky bird sheet, i may be inclined to cut it. i'll never really know

What a great question, Rand!

Anytime I was lucky enough to come upon a sheet, I'd store it away like that and would NEVER consider cutting it apart.  Seems tragic to do so, no?

Don Hayes is, of course, our "Emporer of Uncut Sheets".  We've already seen some of his great ones on this Forum.  I only have a few uncut sheets in my collection (Indian Gum; Skybirds; World War Gum; Horrors of War; American Beauties), but nothing that measures up to some of Don's beauties!

If I could have just one, tho, and trade all the rest for it, I could go for

1.  G-Men & Heroes of the Law sheet, showing lower-left number rares; or

2.  R73 Goudey Indian Gum, Series of 288s ; or 

3.  R73 Goudey Indian Gum, white background portrait cards, Series of 312; or

4.  Lone Ranger Gum

I would EVER cut a sheet or suggest to someone else that they do so..... That being said we all collect what we want and the way we want within our means. I believe in preserving the past - others may have a different view which I can respect - after all the sheets were all MEANT to be cut into cards. What makes them special is their larger size and smaller population. They survived in a state uncommon to their purpose. Even if I had "The Card" on a sheet I couldn't see the value going up when it's dismembered. Like selling the sizzle and not the steak. Once it's cut only cards are left. I take the same view of un-opened packs. I'd love to see one opened that had a card inside - but I'd never do it myself. It got to me in a certain state - and I'm gonna try and keep it that way.......

you guys are all collectors...........IF Hugh did cut the sheet, and I didn't know him but have no reason to believe he didn't, he was a dealer though--right? Was he a collector too? Sounds like he cut it KNOWING full well he already had it all sold. Did he grade them too or did he sell them cut in MINT condition and they were subsequently graded? No one really knows I guess...

I'd find it hard to cut a sheet. I'd have to have 100% complete confidence in whomever was cutting it to be sure it was cut correctly. This isn't a job for someone on a paper cutter regardless of how good the cutter is. This would be a job for a professional printer with some laser sighting equipment or something. I guess I could see where it could be done correctly but geez, if it was even a hair off you have some razor sharp cards with crappy centering.

I just soaked of 16 cards I won on ebay a week ago. They came off where you couldn't even tell they'd been on. Now I have some of my N353 Consol Cigarettes Ladies of the Whitehouse holes filled (woops that didn't sound good). Anyway, that was 'altering' that I was pretty sure about!

Tom, be careful filling those holes.

I would not cut a sheet. Hugh was a businessman, not a collector, so if he was able to pull it off then it certainly made sense for him to do so with the exponential prices realized for the highest grade cards.

My dream sheets would include some of my favorite sets (Believe it or Not, Strange True Stories, Tootsie Circus and Noah's Ark) but I'd also love to have a set of US Caramel Presidents with a McKinley or I'm Going to Be with a Strongman.

about the Presidents........I guess McKinley was NOT on the sheet with the rest of the set.......Would be interesting to see how many cards to the sheet.....if Orange was with Red was with Blue....and then to have a sheet of McKinley's by themselves! That'd be a sheet worth cutting, huh?

As stated in another chain last night, I could not cut an uncut sheet. Definately too hard to come by to casually cut one up, no matter how hard I'd like to get my hands on a Sea Raiders #48.

As for my ideal uncut sheet, I'd take R-109 Pirtae Pictures with the 9,34,and 59 down on the bottom right.

We are all collectors, it's just that dealers collect that other kind of paper with pictures on it, money! No dealer worth his weight could be a collector at the same time. Either it's about accumulating money, or about accumulating cards; they are largely mutually exclusive in my opinion (this has certainly proven to be the case with me anyway; the more cards I get the less money I have).

edited because I can't spell.

I could not bring myself to cut a sheet today, but I cut many 40+ years ago. Thought nothing of it! As a kid, cards had value. Sheets... not so much.

Lot # 834 (of 873)  

1933 R39 Dare Devils Uncut Proof Sheet

Starting Bid - $800.00, Sold For - $4,025.00

Or how about these beauties?

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Lot # 836 (of 873)   

1933 R73 Goudey Indian Gum Uncut Sheet

Starting Bid - $500.00, Sold For - $1,840.00 

Goudey Indian Gum is one of the most popular and difficult to complete of all the 1930s gum card issues. Offered is a beautiful Indian Gum production sheet, featuring 24 cards from this classic 1930s gum card series. The sheet has fully printed backs, and includes the following cards: #'s 92, 93, 94, 95, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 113, 117, 164, 166, 169, 173, 176, 190, 198, 203, 205, and 210. The sheet has a thin strip of yellowed tape which runs the length of the left border, from its storage in Goudey's files, and is otherwise in Excellent condition. 1933 Goudey Indian Gum sheets are almost non-existent, and in fact are even rarer than their highly sought after baseball counterparts. A true rarity and a prize non-sport sheet, from the one of the key gum card issues of the 1930s, ideal for display. Reserve $500. Estimate $1,000/$2,000. SOLD FOR $1,840.00

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Lot # 838 (of 873)   

1933 R136 National Chicle "Sky Birds" Uncut Proof Sheet

Starting Bid - $500.00, Sold For - $1,495.00

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Lot # 837 (of 873)   

1933 Goudey R142 "Soldier Boys" Complete Set Uncut Sheet (24)

Starting Bid - $200.00, Sold For - $1,035.00

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In college, a friend, Tom and I would discuss over a few beers "How much would it cost for you to ..... completely consume this jar of mustard", etc.
Knowing full well that we both would do almost anything, if the price was right.

And I bet that many of you "I would never ...", really would for the right offer.

Gilbert, I don't know you, but you sure sound like a dealer rather than a colllector to me.

I would sell my soul to the devil for the right price - as they are really but things. I would prefer to keep my stuff - and in practice I try and leave things the way I found them. My point is that in today's collecting climate - the price of the sheet intact would exceed any component parts. There has been an added level of sophistication added to the thought processes of the current buyer of esoteric and/or expensive "stuff" and there are more of them.......

I see nothing wrong with cutting them, especially if you can do a good job.

Last year I cut up three 66 card sheets and each card came out perfect. Had GAI grade one set, with an overall GPA of 8.9. I'm not a dealer just a collector who likes individual cards instead of hard-to-handle sheets. I would for sure find a way to bend or ruin something so bulky.

Kevin

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http://www.AlteredCards.com - learn about doctored cards, flips and much more.

So, Kevin, how does one go about getting professional results like you did?  Did you find someone with laser cutting capability or what?  Probably an interesting story for us . . .

I'm L i S t E n I n G..... and wondering if whatever process it was would have the same results if it were an older sheet than whatever sheet you had cut. If so it raises a lot more questions about vintage material in the marketplace or the position of grading companies and their skills. BTW - just an aside but none of the grading services leave me with a warm fuzzy feeling - and GAI - despite a respected individual or two who may or may not have participated in having those particular cards graded - leaves me even less respectful of them. I do have a few graded cards and appreciate the service they render to a point. I assume they do a better job than I do as I don't have the tools they should have. I just think there's too much subjectivity. This ain't about grading and I'm REALLY only interested in hearing how the cutting came about and the nmechanics...... As for your cutting up your sheet - when you own something you can do with it as you please - and each "collector" or "dealer" (both are needed) gets to make their own decisions. I would still never cut-up a vintage sheet that wasn't common. If I couldn't care for it - I wouldn't own it.

If you are talking price - there are always 2 parts - supply AND demand. The demand for expensive uncut sheets is very small. Not many people collect them as they are hard to handle, you need to either have them professionally framed (not cheap) or some large area to store them. Meanwhile, anyone who collects cards wants the singles. In this age of the exponentially high prices received for top condition specimens - you will always get more money for the professionally cut singles. It's simply a matter of economics. Right or wrong - if you are in it for the money - cutting is hands down the most lucrative solution.

So, Kevin, how does one go about getting professional results like you did? Did you find someone with laser cutting capability or what?


For years there has been talk about cards being individually laser trimmed but I have yet to see it done or know anyone who has. I've been told that this is a hobby urban legend.

Nope, I did it myself. Took a few hours for each set but with enough patience, some experience and the right cutting tools it's not that difficult. Started with a sharp razor and a straight edge to cut the sheet into a few manageable sizes then switched tools for the more detailed straight cuts. Granted these were not vintage, but full proof sheets of baseball from 1984...which are even more bulky. Vintage would not be any different, just possibly thicker card stock for some issues...a cut is a cut.

Originally I put them in albums, so it they were convenient to look at but wanted them protected because a few were somewhat valuable. PSA won't grade cuts from a sheet and I don't think SGC will either. While I was down at Global helping out, I brought the set out of curiosity and asked Mike Baker. He stated they did grade these but would be described as hand-cut, which was fine with me. Within a week they came back....graded and protected. Protection is what I was looking for, grades (especially these) were just an extra. I still have two raw sets.

Yes, it did increase the value considerably! As an example one card is now worth as much or more than what I paid for all three sheets.


Kevin



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www.AlteredCards.com - in-depth education on advanced card doctoring techniques & detection with detailed examples

<<PSA won't grade cuts from a sheet and I don't think SGC will either.>>


Kevin,

As I posted earlier, ALL cards were "cut from a sheet" at some point. PSA and SGC won't grade cards they can tell have been cut from a sheet AFTER that sheet has left the factory. Correct?

The question raised here is whether or not the grading companies can tell when and where the cuts were done. Can a professional printing company recreate the cutting methods of 50-70 years ago?

It seems to me that this would, at least in theory, be possible.


Jim

or 'Auth' craze lately, I'm surprised that SGC or PSA won't grade them as Auth or A if they've been cut from a sheet recently. Their mission is to maximize submissions, and I think that'd maximize them for sure.

I always appreciate your posts on our sister board. I have learned things and also re-evaluted the way I look at cards and the marketplace. As for the above - I assumed it was a modern sheet The material fact left out of the original post was that the cards were designated "hand cut". That's a bit different - not with regard to the valuation - but to my personal concerns. I am really just a 19th century guy and uncut material far and few between. Uncut strip cards and silks come up now and again - but I can only think of a single 19th century sheet of cards meant for distribution I have owned - Triplex/Ellis breeds of dogs. There's a sheet or two of the N172's I know of that have survived - but hard to even speculate these extremely low population items. I suppose if something were rare enough on a sheet (types or a replicated image/card) - and many collectors wanted a piece of it - the component parts could yield greater returns than the value of the uncut sheet. That having been said - I still stipulate that there are people that would appreciate the significance of having all the parts - can do so financially - and are emotionally inclined to "top all" in today's marketplace - the sheet being closer to an exclusive item to some of today's peeps than cards themselves. Maybe my mistake is that the mere perception of having the same mint card AVALABLE within a sheet is worth less than actually having the card in that condition. That makes sense I guess but for me a sheet will ALWAYS still contain whatever you would have taken out of it
A bit off topic but this discussion has gotten me thinking about the famous Wagner strip. When Verkman "won" it (forget at the moment the hammer) I thought it was a GREAT deal as there's but ONE o'dem and many Wagners. While he made a profit when it sold again - I believe the market left the value at little more than a better condition single. Other factors regarding the history/lore of the strip may have kept the price depressed in comparrison - but on the surface it can be opined that it is all about the card - bolstering your arguement.

Can a professional printing company recreate the cutting methods of 50-70 years ago?


Factory cuts on vintage cards are unique but they can be recreated and doctored to fool even the best grader. I always say if it was made once it can be made again. Might cost a fortune but it can be done.

One thing I failed to mention is that the set I am referring to above is rare and was only made in sheet form, individual cards do not exist. Let's say a Reggie Jackson collector who wants only that card cannot have it unless it's cut from the sheet. It becomes even more desirable if it's a clean cut with even borders...kinda' like the Wagner.


I always appreciate your posts on our sister board. I have learned things and also re-evaluated the way I look at cards and the marketplace.

Thank you! They, along with my website, were written with the intention that collectors should re-evaluate the way they look at the hobby.


Kevin


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www.AlteredCards.com - in-depth education on advanced card doctoring techniques & detection with detailed examples

dittos to what Henry said about the 'sister' board...........

And to Henry's point.......I think that strip of Wagner T206 only traded in the VERY low six figures 2-3 times. Around 100K +/- or so and now a PSA1 or SGC10 Wagner will sell into the 150-250 range it seems like, so maybe whoever owns it should trim it down! I know it had a major crease through Wagner though.

Recreating the way cards were cut 50 years is actually not that hard to do. As a matter of fact many of the cutting machines in existence today (and used regularly) are probably that old. The cutting of cards is pretty much the same as it has been since the late 1800's. The way it is done is with a large Guillotine Paper Cutter. The key is that this large device is designed to tightly press down on a stack of paper (or cardboard) and then have a very sharp blade slice the entire stack the exact same way without the cards slipping. This same method is used today in all print shops that need to cut large quantities of paper. There is really no way to tell the difference of a vintage card cut then or now if properly cut by a professional with a Guillotine Paper Cutter.

Here is a small vintage cutter:



I have printed modern cards and have viewed the facilities and watched the manufacturing process (including the cutting of the cards). I have a local guy I work with who will cut down sheets for me for a small price on a Guillotine Paper Cutter. So if anyone out there has a sheet they want cut let me know (HA HA!).

I'd love a Mars Attacks sheet and I would not cut it up.

Steve

This auction did quite well considering many cards were poorly hand cut.


http://tinyurl.com/6poc9k

Congratulations on the Donut Corp "THRILLING MOMENTS" uncut box panels.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330248162275

I've never, ever seen these available like this before and think you were very wise to snap these up as BIN. Must be a one-of-a-kind in the hobby. Again, congrats!

I thought it might be interesting to attach your 'catch' to this past thread, though, because perhaps you have a quandry to consider on these:

==> It would be possible to get these professionally cut and then graded ... with an opportunity to pile up the Thrilling Stories sportcards in PSA 9s or perhaps even 10s. In this case, with the Ruth card and others, you are looking at the likelihood of being able to recover a multiple of the $2700 paid to buy ALL the cards on the sheets. (I saw the Ruth graded and for sale at a dealer's table at a Chicago-area sportcard show, a year ago, for $4000.)

Thanks Ralph. A big chunk of money for me, but I couldn't resist. I don't intend to have it cut up, and cannot understand why sheets are worth less than the cards on them. I always thought the whole was supposed to be more than the sum of its parts.

I'll take a T206 Wagner sheet and cut it down, then get PSA to slab the Wagner, and ...
What?
Already been done?
When?
Damn...

Assuming I could get the resulting cards past a grader and into numbered slabs, I'd cut down any sheet that made financial sense to cut down. I'd take a high quality digital image of the front and back before doing the deed so the data would be preserved for later research as needed.


Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

D'OH!!!

Jim, one of the major auction houses had the complete box for auction last year that I believe included the Ruth. I can't remember if it was Mastro, REA or another but the price was BIG! Great buy.

Steve, at the REA auction on 4/26/2004 an uncut sheet of Mars Attacks containing exactly 55 cards (1 complete set) sold for $9500 against a pre sale estimate of 5-10k. At about the same time, a Mars Attacks ad sheet sold for 2500 and the box art for 7000.

It looks like the Thrilling cards come in 4 colors. Anybody know what the fourth color was? (red, yellow, green, and ?)

Jim, you are my hero! Awesome

Jim---congrats on a tremendous pickup! They are beauties---I also have been puzzled by relative values of uncut material, but no one can argue with the impressive display they make, especially in your case where this is how the cards were originally issued to the public. (I also have to agree that the singles value in mint state must be incredible!) Well done!

Blue

Thanks Ralph!