brand of cigarettes - and a Marquis of Lorne card - does that make the card an insert for the brand?

(edited out some nonsense)

Good luck on this one Henry. I would love to hear responses to those questions as well. While I'm a 30's guy for the most part, that card has always fascinated me.

I am responding here without checking my notes (watching the eagles/giants game, so details will have to wait.)
I have owned a Marquis. I sold it in 2007 in a Mastro auction. I can't recall the exact date, nor the exact final price but i do believe that it was over 17,000 (again i will check this all after the game).
I am a second generation collector. My parents started in the 1970's. They were members of the British Cartophilic society (we are originally British citizens who emigrated to Canada in the 70's). Even back then the Marquis was a Holy Grail. The British collectors were well ahead of any other collectors in the world with regards to organization (i believe the Cartophilic society began in the 1930's) and research (the WTI is still the best reference series for Tobacco cards).
I mention this because i believe that it was an article in one of the Cartophilic societies news letters that actually had evidence of the publish date for the Marquis card, which made it the earliest card date. (if someone has access to this article it would be amazing if someone could publish it here).
Having owned and handled one i have no doubt as to the fact that it is a card, not a cut out from a package as been suggested in the past. I believe that this belief was begun due to the card that was auctioned by Christies several years ago (the first one offered in an auction ever i believe). It apparently had roughly trimmed edges which brought about speculation that it may have been cut from something larger (like a package). I am unsure of the details but i think that card sold in the 10,000 range in that auction.
The card i sold i believe was the first to have been graded by PSA. It was similar in thickness to the Halls Between the acts cards. Burdick had one which was donated to the Met. along with the rest of his collection. Warton Tieger apparently had one in his collection which was donated to the British Museum. So that is four confirmed. I have heard of rumours two others in collection, but have never been able to confirm their existence.
Is it an insert card? Burdick thought so, so did Tieger. It is so similar in size and style to the Hall Between the Acts cards that it would be hard to believe that one series was inserts (the Halls) and the Marquis was not. However as far as i know we have no absolute proof. That being said do we have any absolute proof that the Halls cards were inserts? (seriously i am asking?)

I have one or two other card which i believe are equally rare and un-recorded (the previously mentioned Yara Indian Maiden card which actually mention to keep the card in the pack, and another that was issued by Sorg's tobacco). I also believe that they of similar age as well. One wonders why certain cards end up being so scarce. Is it because of an unpopular brand? Poor brand distribution or sales? Why did people save the Halls cards in such numbers back in the day and not other cards issued around the same time? Is the Marquis card as rare as it is because people just did not know to save it. I.E. was there a culture of card collecting yet?

Ok i have rambled on too long, and probably come up with more questions that answers. After the game i may add scans of the Yara card and the Sorg card if anyone is interested and i will look for my scan of the Marquis card i sold (i think Chuck Millburn has a scan of it that is being used on Todd Rileys card web site)
Cheers
Jay

Edited to delete more nonsense...

Henry here is the old thread:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/526604/thread/1218233903/N519+Marquis+de+Lorne+card

When I read this thread I never understood if for sure it was determined to be a genuine Marquis of Lorne from the lot on ebay. Jay, I saw you post the Indian Maiden on a recent thread from this same lot. I have been curious if the Marquis of Lorne turned out to be genuine from your lot?

Yes the Yara card is from that lot. No as it turned out the Marquis in that lot was an old photocopy pasted on card. From what i understnad that it was a copy of the card that may have been in the Christies auction originally. I guess it was a bit much to hope that i had found my second Marquis. The seller agreed to refund me my money and we settled on a price for the rest of the cards in the lot (i had asked about her refund policy if the card was a fake before i bid). Just a note that the Marquis that i sold on Mastro i did indeed buy on ebay a few years before i sold it.

Thanks for the clarification Jay. I wasn't sure what happened with that lot.

There is an interesting item under this heading on the excellent 'Burnt Offerings' website.

as fingers were engaged LONGGGGGG before cranial participation

1) It is most likely NOT to be what we classify as a trade card as the size and format suggest otherwise and IS suggestive of an "insert" card - although if it was the "first" it wouldn't have a model to follow.

2) No package is known. There was a registered brand of Marquis of Lorne cigarettes as listed on the back of a known trade card. Cigarettes at the time were packed in different kinds of containers and still being rolled by hand as the Bosack machine wasn't patented until 1880, and it was a few years before it went into use. I have always heard a distribution date around 1880 for the card but unsure. I have a couple cigar boxes that held 100 hand rolled cigarettes. If it was such a box then we would have likely seen one already - which suggests some sort of paper box or sack. * I think the Yara card referred to came in such a box. If so - it could be seen as an insert - but I think it isn't for a couple other reasons which require more research.

3) Not sure when the Marquis held office - would help a bit as one would think the tobacco was being sold during his tenure - much like the Prince Albert and Now King on the tins and others. Knowing the production dates as well as the package dimensions would also help.

4) It is reasonable that the back would be blank as printing something there would add expense.

5) I doubt it was any kind of ticket or "give-away" in part because of it's size.

6) I think I've come full circle for now. It's a mystery - but I am now leaning to insert card. As to whether it's the "first" or even qualifies within MY parameters for a tobacco card - I would really like to know more.....