Okay.........no one can POSSIBLY know how P.O.'ed I am currently because I just had a MASSIVE post together on this and hit the 'back' side button on my mouse and when I hit the 'forward' button, it erased it. @#$%^*()#$%&*()#$%&*($%^&*

That said..........
I've compiled the backs on these supposed 'scraps' that continue to appear, most recently selling by MWAGNER10_1 and previously by BTHOVEN14--both of which reside in the state of Pennsylvania.

Anyone have more info?
I'll try to re-compose my thoughts after lunch and post them but for now, I've put all 5 backs that have previously 'surfaced' into a single image for comparison purposes........

Sorry for the large scans but useful for comparison...........

To be appended later...........

1. Don't remember anyone from previous thread who had ever seen anything like these prior to the current and recent previous postings by both sellers.

2. Apparently NO ACC or WTI references for any of these (5) supposed 'scrap' sets. Could be wrong but don't think so.

3. New scraps seem to have stamps instead of all other known diecut 'scraps' type of cards like Kinney Novelties, Dukes diecuts and others having pre-printed info.

4. Increasingly more difficult backs have now popped up such as Yum Yum Tobacco and Scrap Iron Scrap. Previously Navy Long Cut & Kinney--the less scarce brands. Lone Jack and Kalamazoo Bats to follow?

5. Tougher backs now bringing $15-$20 each while previously brought 99c to $5+

6. Current listings state they are one of a kind....

7. With the HUGE amount offered over the last few weeks, wouldn't it make sense that Burdick et al would have seen and catalogued them?

8. Incorrect spelling of novelties (as novelities).....Thanks Eric..........

9. Stamps are often over the scrapbook residue....Thanks Jeff.........

10. Geographical variation on location of Tobacco companies represented...

11.




more to come...........

Scrap Iron is now appearing? Now i know they are all junk fakes. Not to mention that Novelties is spelled wrong - a sure sign of forgery.

to the checklist. Nice catch.....didn't see that one. Plus.........Scrap Iron Scrap? Nice slant to try to help 'em sell, huh?

Think it may have been mentioned, but the stamp over the scrapbook glue residue is a giveaway...

This stuff is total garbage. Somebody has taken decent 19th Century scrapps out of albums and stamped them, if any of these sellers want to be taken seriously (or not seriously hurt their reputations) they will stop this nonsense. These are deliberate attempts to defraud, all the companies usung the same ink in the stamp? varied geographically? all came to the market at the same time? stamped on top of scrapbook & glue residue? and not to mention that there seems to be no size requirements-ie the physical size of these scraps are all over the place? no consistency in their subject matter?

All add up to these being garbage.
-Rhett

http://www.network54.com/Forum/526604/thread/1239954641/This+doesn%27t+look+right+to+me-------------------

About 50 of the cards made it over to the UK, probably for resale.

were ringing. The wording of my original post was constructed to allow that I am imperfect. That having been said - IMHO - I doubt Bob did this intentionally (knowing they are fraudulent) - my dealings with him have always been excellent - although I am concerned the listings for his scraps came right on the heals of what were many of his listings of legitimate scrapbooked cards obviously from a collection. I don't know the other seller but I emailed him a while back. Nothing he said changed my mind as the visual and emperical evidence seemed quite strong. I wrote the England buyer as I've sold him things before - and he said they looked fine to him (he had only received the Scrap Iron at that point). I have not had a follow-up from him. Doubt he has enough knowledge or experience compared to "us" (he's just a dealer after all ). One last observation is that WITHIN THE STAMPED GROUPINGS - there's are least a few obvious mismatches of the TYPES and category of scrap - that is - flat vs. embossed, pastoral vs. sports, exaggerated vs. literal. These scraps were sold in sheets - and in just about every one I've seen - there is a THEME that unites the examples. Anyhooooooo - the scraps are real - the stamping isn't - the value still in the small change realm - worth less with the stamps if you ask me although I now have an interesting Jockey's head that I won with a felonious stamping I think was worth the couple/three dollars - we've finally gotten a thread about EARLY cards......
as for noveltease er novelitieis um novelities - that speaks for itself.

great job Tom. What's nice is that we all try and take a lead when we can - helps keep things going here......

HI TOM,
WOULD YOU PLEASE POST SOMETHING ON YOUR SITE REGARDING THE SCRAPS THAT ARE IN QUESTION. I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THE SOURCE OTHER THAN I BOUGHT A COUPLE OF STACKS FROM ONE GUY. ALSO, PLEASE INFORM YOUR VIEWERS ON YOUR WEB SITE THAT I AM NOT MAKING THEM. ALSO, ADVISE THEM TO BE VERY CAREFUL IN ACCUSING ME OF ANY WRONG-DOING AS I DO NOT TAKE IT LIGHTLY. I HAVE BETTER THINGS TO DO THAN TO FAKE $2.00 SCRAPS. THANKS FOR YOUR HELP AND IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO POST THIS EMAIL YOU ARE WELCOME TO. TAKE CARE,
BOB MCCANN


----------
Posted verbatim.......
----------


I don't think anyone is directly accusing Bob of doing this himself, to the contrary most people are saying they've had good dealings with Bob--as have I--and maybe he was taken on them as well. Anyway, the overwhelming concensus is that the scraps are real but they've been 'embellished' by someone with stamps which falsely increase their perceived value.

Anyone posting anonymously in the thread will be zilched.........as was Spildun's post.

I also spoke to the winner of some of the Yum Yum Scraps as I've dealt with him before. He said he was sending to some people in the UK for confirmation. He didn't seem overly concerned with it though even though he'd paid $20 each for a number of the Yum Yums. Think they were from the BWAGNER_10 seller, not Bob.

HELLO "ALL",
THIS IS BOB MCCANN OR BTHOVEN14 FROM EBAY AND I AM WRITING IN RESPONSE TO A FRIEND LETTING ME KNOW OF THESE POSTS REGARDING THESE SCRAPS. I AM TOTALLY INNOCENT OF ANYTHING HEAR. I KNOW NOTHING OTHER THAN I HAD PURCHASED THEM FROM SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN SELLING ME PARTS OF A COLLECTION FROM WEEK TO WEEK THAT RANGES FROM THE NINETEENTH CENTURY TO THE 1960'S. THIS IS NOT THE ONLY PLACE I HAVE BEEN BUYING THE LOADS OF NON-SPORTS CARDS I HAVE BEEN LISTING IN THE PAST YEAR OR TWO ON EBAY. I HAVE ATTACHED BELOW AN EMAIL THAT I HAVE SENT TO TOM WHO IS IN CHARGE OF THIS SITE AND I HOPE THAT HE WILL PRINT IT FOR ME. WHAT ANGERS AND SADDENS ME IS THAT IF YOU ARE OUT HERE TO "HELP YOUR FELLOW MAN" AND PROVIDE THE COLLECTING COMMUNITY WITH INFORMATION AND KNOWLEDGE TO BE SHARED BY ALL, THEN WHY HAS NOT ONE OF YOU CONTACTED ME VIA EMAIL OR TELEPHONED ME UP TO THIS POINT??!! I LOVE CARDS AS MUCH AS MANY OF YOU DO. THANKS AND TAKE CARE, BOB

HI TOM,
WOULD YOU PLEASE POST SOMETHING ON YOUR SITE REGARDING THE SCRAPS THAT ARE IN QUESTION. I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THE SOURCE OTHER THAN I BOUGHT A COUPLE OF STACKS FROM ONE GUY. ALSO, PLEASE INFORM YOUR VIEWERS ON YOUR WEB SITE THAT I AM NOT MAKING THEM. ALSO, ADVISE THEM TO BE VERY CAREFUL IN ACCUSING ME OF ANY WRONG-DOING AS I DO NOT TAKE IT LIGHTLY. I HAVE BETTER THINGS TO DO THAN TO FAKE $2.00 SCRAPS. THANKS FOR YOUR HELP AND IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO POST THIS EMAIL YOU ARE WELCOME TO. TAKE CARE, BOB MCCANN

This is not a perfect analogy but selling stolen property and claiming, ''I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THE SOURCE OTHER THAN I BOUGHT A COUPLE OF STACKS FROM ONE GUY'' does not exonerate! This property is not stolen but is abundantly clear was created to defraud. I would expect any honest person to take responsibility, remove the items from eBay (or modify the descriptions), offer refunds if applicable and provide ALL information about the source with 100% transparency. The fact these items are still listed on eBay despite the recent revelations speaks volumes. Not removing them or changing the listings (at the time of this post) makes you just as culpable, in my opinion. Maybe other opinions differ.

I've had good dealings with Bob in the past. So I'm glad he wasn't doing the forging. And it looks like the other seller profited the most.

I wonder how Bob is going to deal with his seller who is making the forgeries?

As you posted I imagine you might read this at some point. I doubt anyone is accusing you of anything. As I stated before our dealings have always been fine. Obviously the person who sold you the cards put you in a bad spot. People don't like being taken and unfortunately you are among several people trying to sell these recently. Many people here share information for the good of all. I was IN FACT about to write you earlier today - but I'm quite lazy. Somewhere along the chain of finder to collector - items that are "bad" make it into the system - here perhaps included with many legitimate cards in a legitimate circumstance. Sometimes the product is obvious and sometimes not. At some point when the "bad" card/item is discovered to be so - someone gets called upon to pay the price starting with the final buyer and seller. Often the final buyer pays the price but in our community we hope not. BTW - I "won" one of these from you on eBay recently. I knew what I was getting going in - but I imagine if I was interested in getting a refund you would agree. Nobody but my wife knows everything . I don't think asking you to IDENTIFY whom you brought the item from makes any sense. Maybe knowing if he was a dealer or picker would be germain but so what. I think it's good that you know the community feels these are suspect - and that perhaps your future dealings - or not - with whomever you dealt with to get them - will be affected. So many of these have been seen on eBay and in the paper markets that I think they have been in de facto vetted by the dis-interested parties - and their inflated value because of the tobacco association will soon disappear as they begin to languish unsold in binders and seller stores. It's just a shame that this crap happens..........

is that Bob should not be selling these. This brings to the front an interesting question that we're now dealing with - why should he believe that we are right? If it were me - at this point in my life with my word and name being important to me - I would end the listings and either try and get my $ back from the person whom I bought it from - or do further research. OOoops. One of the best places to research is here In any event - some 2$ scraps would be hardly worth it to me to risk my reputation. Bob like any seller can do what he wants - in the long run letting them stay listed is imprudent.

Henry, this is what doesn't make sense to me. While I'm certain they are fake, where's the profit motive to make a handful of stamps for $20 each, and then acquire a bunch of scraps, and then sell the forgeries for $2 each? If the scraps were free, doing 50 of them is break-even. You need to sell many 100's to make it worthwhile and you have to figure the market saturation would prevent that many from selling.

hello again everyone,
well, it appears that some think that i should remove those i had just listed and some are not sure. i myself am not sure what to make of all of this except that i do have some that look like there is scrapbook residue OVER the stamp as well as different color stamps and different fonts. i also did a little looking on the internet and found that the word "novelties" is and was sometimes "mis-spelled" by our understanding of the word today, much like the word "center" can be sometimes found spelled "centre". as i type this i am deciding that the best thing to do is pull those that i have just listed, which i will do in the morning. also, for the detractors out there who just want to find some excuse to chop at someone, i have already been in contact with some that have purchased the scraps in the past and have offered to fully refund their costs if we find out that they are not original. i did not put them up there hoping to make a million dollars off of them, i thought they were fine. if they are not fine, then i will take care of those people that do not want them and i will address the person whom i purchased them from. fair enough? thanks for your time, bob

oh and one more thing.....for those who chose to slam me rather than contact me and handle it in a professional manner, you know nothing of what is or was going on behind the scenes. i will accept your apology when you are ready to give it. i stand behind all that i sell and if someone is unsatisfied they are welcome to let me know and we will do what we can to make them happy. i take great pride in what i do and that is why i have been around so long and many others are not.

Bob is one of the finest old-time dealer/collectors I have met over
my many years of buying/collecting. I've never had \anything but
honest and fair transactions with him.

I believe my first encounter was in the mid-80.....I'm thinking it
could have been a printer's sheet of 1962 Salada baseball players...
I could be wrong..

I also picked up two N36 Indians within a few months and was very
pleased with them.

...Hope no one jumps on me for this off-topic remark......please.....

Dan, I think that was very on-topic. And I think Bob's words about "taking it up with the seller" is fine - he won't "out" him but will at least investigate the issue.

And, btw, a couple that Bob has listed are authentic. But the ones with the stamps over the thick glue residue are suspect. And most of the sales were from the other seller who started selling about 4 months ago.

I too have had recent, very pleasant transactions with Bob and others dating back a long time when I concentrated more on baseball memorabilia. I remember fondly receiving the one sheet auctions and sale ads from him.....so....while starting the thread, I should have contacted Bob myself with my concerns. I think the ultimate result is an admirable one and hopefully Bob can recover some of his losses from the seller. Bob has had great N, T, R and other 1960's stuff lately--likely from this same seller from what he says. That person may not be the person intending to deceive as well. So....we'll see. Hopefully it works out for all. Bob's offer to refund anyone who won lots is admirable........

I have purchased items from you Bob numerous times and have always been 100% satisfied. My post was in no way to cast any doubts on your reputation. Rather, my post was to show how I would deal with this situation. If you did not want opinions, a message board (blog) is the wrong place to post. Just like Bob was outed, I think he should do the same to the person that sold him the junk (assuming he is unable to secure a refund). I would find this beneficial and ultimately helpful in possibly figuring out the person(s) responsible for this 'fraud'. Also, the stamps on the reverses of most (looks to me like they) were added after they were removed from an album. This is a hard one to explain away! Following the chain of command up the junk food chain would be exciting and provocative, if nothing else.

I too have had dealings with Bob in the past and have nothing but positive things to say, and to be honest didn't even realize he was one of those selling these things, as I had initially seen the other sellers' items.

That being said, the items don't pass the small test for all the reasons pointed out at the beginning of this and the previous thread. There are just too many red flags and the timing is so wierd. If the forger had been smart, he would have just stayed with one maker, the biggest giveaway was when the YumYum's and other companies started coming out. It just doesn't make any sense that an entire series of cards like this were not known to exist for the last 120 years then they show up in seemingly endless supply, and then we start seeing 5-6 completely unrelated companies from all over the country being represented.

-Rhett

that they could have been fake. it never dawned on me for a second. your reasons do make sense and my only worry is that we condemn something before we absolutely know for certain. i will be speak to who i bought them from this weekend. the reason i have not given out his name is i am concerned for legal reasons as well as the fact that he, like myself, may not even be aware of it. again, i will take care of it on my end and post for all of you what information i can get over the weekend. thanks, bob

I can also come on his board and praise the good name of Bob McCann. Bob and I have been very close friends for about 13 years, when he would come over my house for the Brimfield Antique Show and tear through my inventory, stacking stuff to buy in the process.

That being said, I can also speak intelligently on this subject as I have broken up literally dozens of 19th century scrapbooks in the past 10 years. Now I can not explain the varied manufacturers stampings or the possible reasonings of why these stamped scraps would exist. However, I can say that a rubber stamp over scrapbook paper does not deem the scrap a forgery. I have broken several scrapbooks in which rubber stamps are stamped over scrapbook paper. People back then merely broke an old scrapbook and pasted the cards into a new scrapbook. In between these happenings (I'm guessing) is that the second owner may have the cards loose from the first scrapbook, rubber stamps his name on them, and then decides to display them in a scrapbook again.

My gut feeling is that these stampings were done years ago by someone who got their hands on some manufacturer's rubber stamps. Am I right? Don't know. Could these be a modern forgery? Possibly.

Hopefully we can get an answer. In the mean time, I think it is most professional if we lay off the finger pointing.

Rich Wetherbee

Hello All,
I met with and spoke to this morning the person who had sold me the stack of scraps that I had been listing in the last few weeks on ebay. He swore to me up and down that he knew nothing of this, was CERTAINLY not making them, and fully made restitution to me on the remaining scraps I had as I have promised to do for those collectors who bought them from me. He was able to tell me that he purchased them (about 1000 of them) at a flea market in Milton, PA. I tend to believe him and he gave me no real reason not to. So, it does appear that these scraps, whether real or not, are originating from the Middle-Pennsylvania area. That's all for now. HOPEFULLY, if anyone finds out any more info on these they will contact me. I am not hard to find. Take care, Bob.