Another thread post brought this though to mind. After handling hundreds of authentic cards from any given set, don't you find that experience & knowledge has given you an instintive awarewaress of what real cards should be like?
Meaning that when you come across a card that somehow isn't right your "SPIDER SENSE" tells you - something is wrong here!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Then the card gets examined more closely/
Or is it only me?
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But, I would agree - I've handled lots of vintage items & have gained that experience. I will often get the sense that something isn't quite right with an item just from its feel and look. When I look more closely, I'll usually find something wrong with the card - usually trimmed or altered in some fashion. Not a sure thing or terribly scientific, but more of an instinct.
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The brain is a very powerful instrument. As one holds a card, the brain is already processing multiple inputs from all the senses. Faster than conscious thoughts can subverbalize what one is seeing, the brain is already racing ahead and computing an outcome . . . that something may be wrong! And conscious thought may only catch up after a while . . .
Our shorthand for this experience is simply that you've "got a feeling."
This message has been edited by 30s_non-sport_gum on Jun 9, 2009 4:48 AM
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RALPH: Very elegantly phrased... Unfortunately, this does not apply to me, as the feeling I have gotten tooooo often is that
I have screwed myself.
I see an item on my want list, am so excited to finally fill in the gap..get home, unpack and open my binder to place in my wonderful new card and see that it has been trimmed or there was a crease I didn't see when purchasing it - etc.
Then Jerry, when looking into the mirror, I do get that SPIDER SENSE.. I feel like an insect with a pea brain, whose life expectancy is very short and filled with danger and uncertainty.
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My view is that card alteration has become so sophisticated that the ordinary collector cannot tell if a card has been altered through visual inspection. Sometimes the grading companies are wrong as well. If you buy an expensive raw card make the purchase contingent on Kevin Saucier giving it his okay and/or PSA/SGC grading it. The days when you can look at a card and detect sophisticated alterations are gone forever--in fact if the card is not graded to begin with you should be suspicious.
Jim
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While I agree with Jim about alterations getting more sophisticated and harder to detect, I no longer think Kevin is the answer. Based on things he said about his ability to alter cards, get them past grading companies, and into the targeted collections of certain Net54 baseball collectors, I'd be very careful.
Even if he was just blowing off steam with his boasts (which I assume he was) the fact that those thoughts formed in his mind, moved through his fingers to a keyboard and into an email, is very troubling.
I always assumed he was one of the good guys in this industry. I'm less sure right now.
Edited to say: This was the troubling quote from an email Kevin sent- "Our secret - I have never sold an altered card but for those few "true asses" on 54, I have made sure that each already has or will have an altered card in their collection (some more than one)....it will be their guess as to which one. I'll tell them exactly that some day. Again...I didn't make a penny (it actually cost me) but well worth it ."
There was a rather long thread on this on the baseball side.
Kevin was just blowing off steam and spoke out of line(for more details see my post on the Full Count Message Board). I don't have any doubt that he is one of the good guys in the hobby and I am confident that he has never altered a card to resell. Moreover, his knowledge about card alteration is on a level with the graders at SGC and PSA in my opinion. He has actually shown Mike Baker a few things that he was not aware of regarding card alteration and Mike has long been recognized as the best grader in the hobby.
Jim
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i agree with jim vb 1000%, just thinking of this is bad enough!!! i would have thought jim c that even you would have found this "trust breaking", i will stay with the majority on this one..
jim c- i really dont waht to get into a debate, but baker overseen a co. gai that graded tons of trimmed cards. i owned 10 in my life, when i tried to cross 5 came back altered...thats good enough for me.
what i think jerry is talking about is normal "stuff", like wavy borders and added color and such, not the real hardcore altering that kevin can do. maybe jerry can add to this a little.
This message has been edited by mighty-q on Jun 9, 2009 12:48 PM This message has been edited by mighty-q on Jun 9, 2009 12:47 PM This message has been edited by mighty-q on Jun 9, 2009 12:45 PM
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I've only owned three GAI graded cards (And only because I bought them at a super low bargain price) and when I cracked them out and resubmitted them to PSA they all came back as altered. If Jim Baker is such a good grader why hasn't he been able to instill at least rudimentary ID techniques in the grading staff at GAI?
I don't know Kevin but from the posts I have read he is a very skilled card doctor. How he uses those skills only Kevin knows. But blowing off steam is not an good or reasonable excuse (IMHO) for the statements in the quoted email.
Marty you are right about what I meant. You look at/pick up a raw card. Some inner knowledge kicks in and almost immediately you know if the card is okay or off.
My basic tools are a 6in. SS ruler with graduations down to 1/64th. of an inch, a 10X illuminated magnifying glass, a jeweler's loupe and a Black Light. Using those tools I am confident that I can detect 99% of bad cards. Maybe not Kevin's sophisticated alterations but I kind of doubt he is altering/improving 50 to 100 buck VG Non-sports cards.
Edited to add I also use a caliper - helps to ID cards that have been soaked, pressed down to expand their dimensions helping to eliminate creases can then be trimmed down to standard size. the card winds up being too thin - a caliper will spot that right away.
This message has been edited by WarHoundR69 on Jun 9, 2009 2:49 PM
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Just wanted to add that one excellent way to press down cards is to soak them in a 1/100 Mole bleach solution until the card board is saturated with moisture. Place the card between two Acetate stamp mounts (Being sure to removed the gummed portion). Then place in a vise, exert maximum pressure, leave it there for 24 hours, place in a stamp blotter, wait until it is dry and voila you have a card where each dimension has expanded by approx. 1/32 of an inch & the very weak bleach solution has helped clean up any discolorations/dirt on the card.
I'm sure that Kevin does something similar.
This message has been edited by WarHoundR69 on Jun 9, 2009 3:00 PM
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I am used to being in the minority on things so it doesn't bother me but let me ask you a question--do you know Kevin personally? Does Jim VB know him personally? I would wager the answer to each of these questions is no. I do and I am telling you he does not alter cards and sell them.
Jim
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I admit I don't know Kevin personally, but know him only by reputation. However when an individual makes a statement like he did, it brings said reputation into question. Since I don't know him personally I'm left to judge him by the things he says and does. In this case, it is judgement by the things he says he has done to other members of the Net54 baseball board.
I certainly didn't do, or say, anything to tarnish his reputation. He did. I know that at one time he was considering opening some sort of business himself, to deal with inspecting and/or authenticating cards. I would be hard pressed to understand how this kind of statement could fit into any such business plan.
Jim, if your personal knowledge of Kevin allows you to ignore a statement like this, fine. But I must ask, how do you know for a fact that you are not one of the people he was talking about fooling?
Edited to add: Jim, he never said he had altered cards and sold them. He carefully phrased it by saying that he had made sure that certain people had placed altered cards in their collection. To me, even thinking that way is very troubling. I don't know how you can see it any other way.
This message has been edited by jvb6034 on Jun 9, 2009 9:29 PM This message has been edited by jvb6034 on Jun 9, 2009 6:27 PM
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Beards are hard to detect--in my opinion that one would have gotten past SGC too.
Jim VB,
The explanation is he was being a big shot and did not mean what he said.
Some people on Net 54 are so arrogant about their knowledge of cards and their ability to detect alterations. The attitude of "I don't need PSA to tell me if a card is legit or not--I can hold it in my hand and tell" is so ridiculous I have often thought these are the guys that probably have altered cards in their collection. I am sure Kevin would have no trouble if he crossed over to the dark side in selling these people altered cards but he hasn't and he wouldn't......and on this issue I am certain I am right!
Jim
This message has been edited by Davalillo on Jun 10, 2009 6:13 AM
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Jerry, right now I have three cards in my collection that I have never felt right about. They look OK, but I agree with you that I have a sense about them that something isn't right. I would love to get replacements for them so I can get rid of them.
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Hi Jim , may i say that it's great to see you posting on the boards .
My statement wasn't a pop at PSA , it was a general comment regarding grading companies . I've no particular loyalty to any grading company but i find it unusual that someone can ink in a beard on a card and it goes undetected .
In my opinion this is just a small ' alteration ' to a less expensive card and would get me slightly concerned that ' graders ' aren't doing their job properly .
It also gives a green light to the big buck forgers that it's ' game on ' .
----
Mark
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"Then Jerry, when looking into the mirror, I do get that SPIDER SENSE.. I feel like an insect with a pea brain, whose life expectancy is very short and filled with danger and uncertainty. "
This quote could not be any more funny or true!
I agree and pull my boat closer to Mr.Krim's ship.
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Get one of the old ones with 386 Processers, DOS platform & 40 MB Hard Drives then you have vintage High Tech. Oh yeah probably 2K RAM, no CD Drive only Floppy Discs.
"128 KILOBYTES of memory will always be more than adequate" - quote from Bill Gates circa 1981.
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....I share your concern. Card collecting for me has always been a sensory experience, and one of the key senses is the sense of touch. That has always been my #1 objection to slabbing cards - you can't feel the cards anymore, and that is a major problem for me.
Several years back, I picked up a set of 1928 FroJoy Babe Ruth cards. This was after the grading companies had decided they'd had enough with the fakes and stopped grading this set entirely.
However, there was no question that the card stock was authentic. You couldn't tell that if the cards were holdered, but by feeling the card stock, not only was I convinced that the set was legit, but so was PSA. They agreed to holder it for me, graded 5.0 (two 4s, two 5s & two 6s).
The rest of the story is when I contacted them again to allow me to register the set, they told me they don't allow that set on the registry anymore....
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