They still haven't paid consignors from 2 auctions ago. It looks like they are trying to survive on a Ponzi scheme scenario.

When the consignors who haven't been paid put in a claim for return of product they will win. A consignment isn't over until it has been paid for, so they still own the prodcut. It's the buyer who will be out the money. It's not like these cards won't show up again.

not impressed at all. it will all come out in the wash as time goes on. at the end of the day its a really tough job to secure outstanding material over and over again. if there are issues with payment the consignnments will dry up. i havnt been on the baseball side since it changed over but there are alot of them not to impressed either.

Why does legendary put all the Hassan cards listed as 1910's.... The cowboy series is probably 20's or 30's eh?!

Bobby

Are we OK posting comments critical of Mastro on this message board? (I only ask because Leon banned me from the baseball board for criticizing Legendary for appropriating previously consigned Mastro lots without consignos consent or knowledge.)

Just in case, I will post as "delicately" as possible, as unlike baseball cards, I actually DO collect non-sports cards and would like to continue posting here.

I did bid in their April auction but only seriously on two lots because they were indeed unique lots that wouldn't likely pop up again anytime soon (the complete STS set and the Tarzan/Isis set with many high-grade PSA examples). And even at that, I built in lower limits for myself that I would have otherwise bid on a more stable auction house because I didn't want to take the chance that I would pay a big figure and never actually receive my cards. I was interested in the JRS and Wild Man sets, but one of the main reasons I didn't go after them aggressively was because even high grade PSA examples of those two sets pop up every now and then.

All that said, they shipped my cards promptly and they arrived almost as described (predictably, PSA did not agree with Legendary more generous raw grades), which leaves me open to bidding with them again. But there is no way in the world I think any sane person should consign quality material to them.

Eric, I continue to bid in the Legendary Auctions because I have confidence in the business integrity of Mark Theotikos, Ron Oser and Doug Allen. I've known these people for a long time and have absolutely zero doubts about them.

That doesn't mean to say that a business start-up (and that's what this is) won't at times have some cashflow challenges. None of us knows what the consideration was that they had to pay to in the acquisition of Mastro's assets, but it wouldn't surprise me if their financial modeling indicated that things might be really tight until a few auctions were run to generate enough cash. Wouldn't be the first takeover team who went in leveraged to the hilt and short on full funding. And since time immemorial, one of the first sources of funding to be worked, in a pinch, is to drag on payables, making your supppliers into your unwilling bankers. No, this is not a good thing, but it IS real. Doesn't mean a company is going under, just means cash may temporarily be tight.

From all indications, the unpaid consignor problem is a very limited situation -- we are hearing of one or two cases, only, no? And we don't know the full stories, either. There is always another side.

I am not condoning businesses trying to operate with inadequate working capital, but perhaps there are no other options for Legendary. As you know, this is a really rough environment to attempt to obtain financing. Maybe no third party financing is available.

So, if a few consignors have indeed been dragged upon, this is certainly really unfortunate. But before attributing any ill will (the Ponzi scheme analogy), considering the quality of gentlemen behind Legendary, I think we've got to give them the benefit of the doubt and wait/see what happens. I suspect this is going to turn out well for them and that a year from now, looking back, they will have gotten over any 'hump' and will be very comfortable . . and we'll all be pleased.

Because one thing is for sure: our hobby would be a very different place -- in a bad way -- without the likes of great auction houses like Mastro/Legendary. We need them to survive and provide a source/outlet for high demand hobby material. Starting scare stories could actually damage their business survival chances if doubts about their integrity/operation became widespread, in which case you'd have a self-fulfilling prophecy. And I don't think any of us want that!

Ralph

Ralph, sorry, but unless your post was tongue in cheek, it was unintentionally hilarious. Check out these threads:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=113543

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=112699

Hi Aaron - Glad you enjoyed it!

Yup, I'd already seen those threads on the bb side, but my opinion (key word!) unchanged.

Seems to me there is a lot of 'piling on' happening right now . . . but behind all the smoke, only a very few incidents of people not being paid YET. And no question, I'd hate to be one of those guys waiting for the cash, but this seems pretty limited and, I still feel, temporary. Delayed payment is really different from default.

But if we as a hobby really keep fanning these flames, like the N54 baseball card hyperventilation, this could damage Legendary's reputation and business viability . . . and that would be bad for everybody.

Ralph

ralph, you know i respect you immensely. but with all due respect, the fact that mastro was delivered papers from the FBI due to shill bidding and other issues, plus the horrible transition to this new Legendary auction house, the unpaid folks, ect,ect... it just does not look good. who knows, you may have been shill bidded from these guys in the past if you left a ceiling bid. i just think they are in quick sand. think about it, the # 1 auction house, $10,000,000+ auctions every few months...BAM out of business.

Hi Rand -

Totally understand your and Aaron's point of view on this -- many share it! -- and as far as anyone knows, you guys may well be right.

So, it's that old deal about how " ... I may not agree, but will defend, to the death, your right to say it!"

But the thing, for me, is that nobody really knows for sure all of what's going on, only what's been publicly announced. For now, I guess I am inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to Legendary and its new ownership team, which is trying to salvage things from some evidently very concerning but unclear issues associated with the former Mastro's company.

All the public announcements, etc., have indicated that Legendary is indeed a separate legal business entity, associated with those aforenamed folks, who enjoyed strong reputations over the past decade or more in our hobby's auction business. (Ron Oser goes back to the early 1990s and his auctions were the pioneering efforts for what Mastro/Leland/REA/etc later became.)

If Legendary's status, as a new company, is all a fiction, then all bets would be off. But I, for one, for the time being, feel it is fair to give Mark, Ron and Doug a chance to dig out from whatever the previous mess was, aright the ship, and provide us as a hobby with another viable auction house.

Hi all,

I support Ralp's comments earlier in this thread. I believe we should give the new team a chance to prove themselves. I am sure they have a lot at stake personally and financially, and goodness knows the hobby could use another good auction source which features non-sports cards.

Let's not shoot the horse before she runs a few races.

Best in collecting, Bill Bengen

i think one of the problems is lack of communication, lack of real information, and the certainty of wrongful doing by mastro. here is what i mean, Doug has been asked numerous times on the BB side to explain what happened and why was the transition incredibly bad. he has not responded, thus a lack of communication. in addition the unpaid consignors with material in the newer auctions is a ponzi scheme of sorts. doug was the president of mastro auctions, he must have known what was going on and if he did not how could he run a $50M company.

at the end of the day, here is why i think things are messy...

1. doug allen is involved as the president - right after mastro announces its closing with the FBI issue, doug steps in with a new company, same website, takes over consignments, no comments about whats going on and people are owed money. with his ties to mastro he is never going to shake that.

2. no consideration with the current consignors when Legendary took over the inventory. each consignor should have been phoned and given the opportunity to move forward or get their material back.

3. people are pissed off that think they were shilled all these years by mastro as employees were allowed to bid, again the direct link with the president of both companies.

4. bill mastro prints a statement that he is not affiliated with legendary, like that was going to work, yet there is still a common denominator.

all i am saying is whatever difficulties legendary is having is brought upon by themselves. i feel this business had no time to get organized and was thrown together at the last second with no real financial foundation.

i do not wish anybody any ill will, i do not wish anybody to fail or be out of work, i am only stating what my opinion is about why they are struggling.

if legendary does not make it, there will be someone else to offer the same cards

Ralph, I'm not being critical of the integrity of the persons in charge. But good people sometimes fail to make a profit. And this isn't a case of a start-up having hiccups, this has been building for over a year and the serious delays in payments are getting longer.

Aaron, receiving the cards is irrelevant. That's my pint. If the consignor hasn't been paid, then title has not transferred over to you. No different than if you purchased a car from me and I gave you the car. 6 months later the bank who owns the title (who I stopped making payments to) takes the car from you. Your recourse would be with me only.

I don't know Doug. I like people I trust and trust people I like. Until something is shown to have gone awry to people I know, me, or hobby friends - I would have no problems bidding. I haven't checked out the very vocal baseball side since the change to their new site - but would if I was planning on bidding or consigning - knowledge is power as are informed decisions. I always prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt...........