talk about disappointing. i submitted 16 psa cards to sgc for crossover. all the cards are for SGC Registry sets i am working on.... here are the results:

16 cards submitted ... 11 crossed
11 crossed ... 4 downgraded by 1/2 point, 5 crossed the same, 2 bumped up 1/2 point.
5 cards didnt qualify and they were all psa 6 or better and didnt meet SGC's standards
4 only made it because i was willing to accept a lower grade so it could have been 9 cards not crossing which is higher than 50%

how could PSA be so lax on high grade stuff?


the cards are:

1934 sky bird # 27 psa 5 = sgc 60 same
1934 sky bird # 34 psa 5 = sgc 50 down 1 grade
1934 sky bird # 46 psa 6 = sgc 80 same
1934 sky bird # 92 psa 5 = sgc 70 up 1/2 grade

1950 callahan HOF

ban johnson psa 8 = sgc 86 down 1/2 grade
joe mcginnity psa 8 = sgc 88 same
cy young psa 8.5 = sgc 88 down 1/2 grade
museum ext view psa 7 = NO Cross

1936 r322 goudey

bordagaray psa 6 = No Cross
derringer psa 5 = sgc 60 same
cuyler psa 6 = No Cross
harris psa 6 = No Cross

1964 topps giants

kaline psa 9 = sgc 92 down 1/2 grade
torre psa 9 = sgc 96 same
clemente psa 8.5 = No Cross

1965 topps football # 156 psa 7 = sgc 86 up 1/2 grade

Not being lax. Same thing happens when submitting SGC cards to PSA. Better off breaking them out. Also companies do not have identical standards.

I bought an 1967 Leaf Star Trek No. 1 that was graded SGC88. I trusted SGC and did not check the card when I cracked it out and submitted it to PSA. PSA did not grade the card. it came back questionable authenticity. When I got the card back I checked it and PSA was right - a counterfeit.

The lousy part is that I bought the card over a year ago and since I cracked it out I can not go back to the seller. I'm going to send that card back to SGC and see what happens.

I have never had PSA grade a card higher than SGC graded it (All were crackouts). About 80% got the same grade and 25% a lower grade.

Just my experience with SGC vs. PSA.

i cannot speak about sgc to psa crossovers. for 5 years i can speak about psa to sgc, i think overall my success rate has been 40%. 10% of that 40 resulted in higher grades 1/2 - 1 full point. i purposely look for psa cards that i feel have a chance of undergrading, as many could do with sgc undergrading.

i do not crack out cards for one reason, resale and cash flow. if a card does not make it then at least its still in its psa holder and i can try to recoup my money back. if i crack it and the grade is less than what i want or there is a problem i am screwed and take a larger loss.

i think both companies can be guilty of missing cards that are trimmed or questionable authenticity. recently PSA had holdered a rare T206 to find the card does not exist. it just comes with the territory i guess.

i do stick up for sgc, i feel the company has really made leaps and bounds with collectors over the years. i can relate as i am building my own business day by day and understand how difficult it is without extra financial backing.

you have to admit, over the last 3 years all the major auction houses have been submitting to sgc much more frequently and you can see how much new material is showing in the catalogues.

In the sets I collect SGC cards show up much less frequently and when available sell for much less than a comparable PSA card. Recently I bought a SGC 7.5 CWN No. 1 card for $50.00. PSA graded it a 7 - I seriously doubt you could buy a PSA7 CWN No. 1 for $50.00.

Overall I've done well with the SGC to PSA crossovers but only because SGC graded cards sell for so much less than their PSA counterparts.

Quit crying. You were foolish enough to send cards still in their slabs and you paid the price for your mistake. It isn't that PSA is overgrading the card. It is because SGC doesn't have a clue, and neither do you as evidenced by trying to cross in the slab.

what a d$ckhead statement to make. i was not crying, mearly pointing out a very low percentage of crossover. if i bust the cards out then i am stuck with a lower graded card i didnt want in the first place. so it is worth it to me to spend $5 for the crossover and if it doesnt make then resell the card.

maybe if PSA spent an extra second on the cards they all wouldnt be so overgraded in the first place.

and yes, SGC cards do not show up and its tough to complete a set in SGC. THAT'S WHY I LIKE THE CHALLENGE!

Focusing more on the cards and less on the holders (numeric grades) will yield better results and fewer complaints.

Buy the cards...not the holders!!!

Rand, I agree with Jim, you will find the same thing if you were to send SGC holdered cards into PSA. The Grading companies tend to view the other companies graded cards with skepticism, and generally do not cross everything over.

If PSA was to cross SGC cards (and vice versa) and only give equivelent grades and bumps, they would be basically admitting that the other company did a great job grading the cards. If on the other hand they don't cross a few of them or downgrade some of them, they are telling the submitter "See, you should have used us in the first place" (just like you are thinking here).

If you really want an example of this try sending in GAI (still holdered) cards into SGC and then when you get back a bunch of cards they wouldn't holder, then simply resend the same cards in without the GAI holders and you will get back a bunch of slabs (no guarantees as to the grades, but they will be in holders).

My experience is that the grading companies tend to like to make the other companies look "less than good at their job" so that you will be more apt to only buy graded cards graded by them. It is unfortunate that none of the grading companies are very good at being impartial in this type of case. To truly get an impartial look at your cards (if there is such a thing) the cards will need to be busted out prior to being sent in (which can be risky with high graded material).

-Rhett

i realize the grading game. i am not new to it. i really was only offering the information, i usually do not send cards for crossover if i dont think they will make it. but, as with buying ungraded material, there is always a chance the submitter will be disappointed with the results. i would rather take my chances, send the card in its holder, if it doesnt work i can resell and hopefully recoup my purchase price. i have cracked and resubmitted in the past and had better results some of the time, other times the cards came back lower.

lets face it... its all a big game. starting with the Wagner psa 8, to the Doyle hands over head nat'l, ect, ect. both companies have made mistakes, both loyal customers will defend each one's practices.

at the end of the day, its not a big deal to me, this is just a hobby and its fun to try and outwit the next bidder by getting a card that may be a grade higher than assigned.

one thing is for sure, to complete a set in sgc holders in higher grade is twice the accomplishment with the amount of ready psa material out there.

randyl stuckemeyers sets are that much more amazing with this in mind.

Great point Rhett!

This whole thread illustrates some strange goings on in the world of graded cards. Here is what I mean:

1) The grades should be the grades whether in raw, SGC, PSA, or whatever

2) Definitions of the grades have been around for many years (IE: pre grading companies) and are not supposed to be up to individual interpretations (like the bible or the current government on our constitution). These are supposed to be STANDARDS so everyone knows what a card is supposed to look like when it arrives in your hands!

3) Cards SHOULD (I know they aren't) all be graded the same regardless of reputable company (or dealer). When reholdering, the companies should in reality check for errors (in case something slipped through) but just grade it the same as the other company did. The grade should be the grade! Crossing over would then be done only due to personal preference - perhaps to match the rest of their set, or they like one companies holder over the other, or one companies registry over the other, etc.

4) Perhaps there needs to be a concrete set of rules on how to grade a card, created by the collecting community, and these rules need to be adhered to by ALL grading companies (as well as raw dealers). (The companies/dealers themselves can be graded on whether they adhere to the rules or not.)

5) If some monkey business is going on like Rhett surmises then those companies need to be held accountable for that. They should not be purposefully lowering grades just for marketing purposes. That is just plain wrong!

PS) Just for the record - I am not against graded cards. I just think there are many flaws in the current system that need to be worked out.

Maybe I'm naive, but I'm still confident that graders just grade the darn cards, one at a time, according to their standards. All this stuff about one company wanting to make the other look "less than good at their job," I don't see it; I don't possess the psychic ability to get inside the grader's heads like some of you. If someone sends in ten crossovers, and they don't all cross over to his satisfaction, that's an anecdote, not evidence of any broad trend. And please, Rhett- dragging GAI into the discussion just muddies the water. Who wouldn't view a GAI card with skepticism?

Here's a crazy theory: PSA and SGC actually have some professional respect for each other, maybe more than some of their customers have for PSA and SGC.

Hi all,

I must respectfully diagree with Todd's statements about grading. Grading is not an exact science, and probably never will be. There is a strong element of subjectivity to it. That is introduced into the equation when only one number (or three numbers, or four) are used to describe the state of a card. Consider some of the variables in assessing a card's condition:

Wear to the cornerw
Wear to the edges
Wear to the surfaces
Degree of damage, if any, including paper loss
Gloss
Color
Toned vs untoned
Centering
Image sharpness (registration)
Overall eye appeal
Diamond cut vs square cut
Contrast
Printing defects
Strength of back vs front

How can all these be smmarized by one number? I submit it is virtually impossible to completely standardize grading. Would you like to try to put a number on the Mona Lisa?

I think it is important for collectors to become familiar with the propensities of each grading service, and adjust their expectations accordingly. And don't buy cards blindly only by the grade- I have rejected a lot of PSA-8 upgrades to my sets just because the card didn't appeal to me.

In other words, we need to have a reasonable set of expectations for the grading services, and don't expect miracles.

Best in collecting,

Bill Bengen

Jeff, I don't think you are naive, but I disagree with you.

Also, I don't think it muddies the water at all to bring up GAI, in fact it tends to make my point. If (as you say) the companies look at the cards and not the holders they are in, why do they treat cards differently when in GAI holders versus when those same cards are raw, I mean aren't they just grading the card?

i always buy the card and not the holder, BUT, things are puzzling sometimes...

these cards did NOT meet SGC standards for = grades

Rhett, when you say SGC wouldn't holder your GAI cards, was it because they wouldn't meet your minimum grade, or because of some trimming/authentication issue that would require cracking the slab?

-also wanted to say that if the same card gets two different grades, that doesn't mean it was treated differently- that's my point. Like Bill said, grading is inexact and variability happens. Conspiracy, not so much.

Rand, that Clemente has four sharp corners and 50/50 centering, but maybe the grader didn't like the yellowed upper right corner. Or is that a scan artifact?

i have heard many many times over the years that PSA would purposely not crossover any higher graded GAI cards to deter people from using their services, or spending top dollar on their cards.

Clemente has yellow staining on upper right corner. To me, that's worse than a wrinkle.

Harris could have anything like a wrinkle or erasure marks that are hard to see. I guess that applies to all non-crossovers.

i just put the clemente under my loop and do not see the yellow staining, so its something in the scanner.

i am not saying the cards deserve to be crossed equally (although i would have liked them to) but the cards dont look weak to start with.

and if the clemente does have that yellow staining then PSA shouldnt have awarded it 8.5+

at the end of the day... i do think PSA over grades alot of cards. they do not have a second grader to double check them, so its up to the one persons hands they pass through. SGC has a two grader system.

Hello to All ,

Hi Rand ,

Taken from the PSA site ....

'In addition, the sheer number of graders assigned to each card can vary depending on the type of card submitted. In all cases, at minimum, two graders are assigned to every card. '

wow, i heard that it was a one grader system. i stand corrected.

I don't think you are wrong here Rand and I am trying to remember when I used to post about this on the LTS boards perhaps 3-4 years ago but it was around this time that PSA went to a "one and out" grading system. When they say that a minimum of two graders looks at the card I believe that the second grader looks at it after it is already encapsulated.....more of a clerical system. They used to have two graders study the card before it went in the holder. If anyone who is or used to be on LTS remembers this debate and can help please do but as I remember the story came originally from Mike Baker and perhaps another ex-PSA grader.

Jim

Hello to All ,

Hi Jim , more misleading guff from the grading companies then .
----
Mark

jim, we joust 99.9% of the time, i appreciate this .1% that you back my post. i distinctly remember this conversation about psa using one grader.

i do know that SGC uses a 2 grader system, the first grader grades the card then places it in the holder with the tab. the 2nd grader will look at it to determine if it looks correct in that holder and then sends it on its way or regrades the card.

Hello to All .

Hi Rand , Looking at a card in the holder isn't grading is it ?

----
Mark

Its been a while since I have heard about this but personally I doubt that they have gone back to two graders looking at the card before it goes into the holder.

If SGC does do this as you say, I would agree that this is a significant plus to SGC.

If I go to the National, I can ask Mike Baker or I can ask Joe.

Jim

to be honest, i dont really know what happens, does a card get looked at for more than 2 secs, or it just wouldnt make sense to crossover everything? i dont know. i am not pissed at sgc, i am not pissed at psa. part of what drives me to collect is the reward of buying a psa card for my set, paying under market value, and then getting the full point bump. that to me is why my log in name is "Thrill of the Hunt". i am a set builder, my funds are very restricted, so when i jump in i take the risk, i also want to liquidate the cards if they cannot be added to my set so i can get some more. sgc is the company i decided to stay with. i am extremely happy with the decision and my challenges to complete sets in sgc holders is as tough as getting all the cards in the first place.

I have had decent results on crossovers, then again the key is sending
a slabbed card to a diff grading company that is a solid graded card.
So no sliders, cause when in doub't the grading companies will not give
you the benefit of the doubt.

In my quest for N284's which I'm building in SGC slabs, I've turned down
a few PSA & GAI's that I thought wouldn't cross, and since I prefer uniformity
I didn't want 1 GAI and 142 SGC slabs on my set.

Now this GAI pictured below looked like a solid card, and SGC had no problem
crossing it over to the same grade. And yes, it was crossed in the GAI slab,
not cracked out & sent raw. I've also had some PSA's that rec'd bumps in SGC.