Anyone considering consigning to Legendary?

Added a link for you Jim , thanks for the heads up .

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2009/07/05/2009-07-05_mastro_fine_sports_auctions_disaster.html

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Mark

Geez, it makes you want to go back to the days when we were putting the cards in the spokes of our bikes

I wonder if Joe Orlando collects comic books?

That hole just gets deeper and deeper. Were there really some posters saying that these were good guys and Legendary needed to stay in business for the good of the hobby? Really scary stuff.

nicely written story, i think its the tip of the iceberg. it also does not look good that dave forman is involved as sgc was getting alot of material to grade from mastro, especially lionel carter's collection.

Those who have had dealings with Mastro/Legendary already know about their eh..problems.

Another reason for REA to expand?

CGC is a comic grading service that is a sister company of SGC. Does Dave Forman have his comics graded by CGC?

Could be a potential conflict of interest. I'm wondering since I also collect comics and do own some CGC graded examples. Anyone know of any Dave Forman comic purchases/sales. This whole thing stinks to high heaven.

At least if Joe Orlando collects comics, he cann't have them graded by an in house comic grading co. (Might be a good time for Collectors Universe to start their long rumored comic grading division).

if i an not mistaken, i believe psa once owned an auction house called superior.

I just found out that SGC & CGC are no longer associated with each other - they were until recently.

Just wanted to point out my earlier mistake.

if i an not mistaken, i believe psa once owned an auction house called superior.

yes, and do to conflict sold all of their cards and went striclty to gradinbg only.

dave forman is buying cards and selling them!!! isnt he is part owner and pres/ceo. or whatever of sgc ???? holy cow is that bad!!!! if this were joe orlando the lynch mob would have been at his door already with pitchforks and fire! but....there are mnany many many sgc fans. check the baseball side. probably 80/20 sgc for. and dont forget his brother steve is a dealer, yes thats right a dealer....why is dave forman runing a grading co. and buying cards to re-sell in auction???

its about money. period. everybody is greedy. forman's # 1 customer has passed away, # 1 auction house out of business, it will all come to the surface. mastro was not the only auction house doing this stuff... its sickening and pathetic, but it happens every single day..look at wall street this last year. just part of this hobby.

what MQ said above:"why is dave forman runing a grading co. and buying cards to re-sell in auction???"

Probably a good time for Brian at SGC to jump in here and clarify?

Guys, check out this statement from SGC that surfaced today in response to allegations from O'Keefe's article that revealed that SGC's owner has been buying and selling cards:

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Please see the below statement from Sean Skeffington, VP of Operations for SGC.

Everyone,

Weve been following the comments and questions on this issue closely, and while we cannot continue to address every question in this forum, we feel compelled to clarify a few issues.

Please understand that due to the nature of the dispute between Dave Forman and Mastro Auctions, we are not at liberty to make statements regarding the issue. What is important for us to communicate is that the dispute does not involve SGC as a company, and thus we cannot make any sort of statement, other than to express our hope that the two parties are able to resolve their differences.

However, in the course of the many online discussions, some questions about perceived inconsistencies in SGCs company policies have come to light, and in the interest of transparency and trust, we feel compelled to comment.

First, in our continuing efforts to refine and improve our internal operations, SGC established a policy prohibiting any employee from submitting cards for grading. That policy was established in the second half of 2008. Prior to that, while there was no official company policy on the matter, it was a non-issue, since the number of cards submitted by employees was minimal. We established the policy on our own, to help eliminate the potential for impropriety.

Secondly, we feel it is important to note that as the owner of SGC, Dave Forman is not involved in the day-to-day operation of the company, and has never dictated grading policy or graded any cards submitted to SGC.

Lastly, as a grading company well-known for honoring its guarantee, we want to remind everyone that SGC continues to stand behind each and every card in an SGC holder. If, at any time, you feel that one of your cards is not accurately graded for whatever reason, we will be happy to review it for you at no charge, and as you all know, we have bought back misgraded cards in the past.

We feel that it is important to note that for the last 11 years, SGC has worked very hard to earn your trust and establish itself as the most knowledgeable, skilled grading company in the hobby. We are truly appreciative of the trust you have shown us, and we continue to work hard to earn that trust, every single day. While we understand many of the concerns that have been expressed here, we also ask you to remember that SGC still boasts the same commitment to accuracy, consistency, knowledge and customer service that you have all come to expect from us.

We appreciate your patience with our response. We also appreciate your understanding that due to the nature of this situation, we are not at liberty to discuss specifics regarding the dispute between Dave Forman and Mastro. If there are any additional questions that we can answer to help restore your confidence, please do not hesitate to call our offices.

Sincerely,

Sean Skeffington
VP of Operations

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I'm honestly shocked. It was always staggering to me that Mastro allowed their principles and employees to consign to and bid on Mastro auctions -- coupled with their inability to provide the FBI with bidding records (in itself illegal), almost confirming that shill bidding was going on, and at the least the appearance of it was like neon.

Now, we hear that SGC's owner and employees could submit their cards to SGC for grading? Seriously this is mind-boggling. How are these guys that stupid and greedy? Do they really think this kind of behavior isn't wrong or that it won't eventually come out and bite them? And the statement doesn't even address the fact that SGC's owner is out there buying and selling cards. (Wow!!)

I'm floored. The wind is nearly completely gone from my sails.

From Glyn Parson, a former employee of SGC (about a year ago) confirming that SGC employees knew which cards SGC's owner was submitting to SGC for grading:

"For the record I think they treated Dave's material with more scrutiny then any other submitters, and he never got the benefit if they were between grades he got the lower, and if there were any questions the card was rejected. I have nothing but praise for the individuals at SGC, they are a fine company and even finer people."

Seriously, I am now at the point where I don't want to know anymore...

if these hobbies of ours ever really crash and burns it will be because of the greed brought about by 3rd party grading and the insane prices the past decade.i do think this card and memorbilia business is more out of control than we think. with no regulation on really anything the thought of making a ton of $$$$$ have distorted the best of them. dont be surprised if even bigger scams are made public. like rand said in an earlier post. $$$$$$$$$$$ is some people only motivation in these hobbies.

a "friggin" shame...

The SGC statement is very carefully written.

It says that their company policy was introduced only in mid-2008 to prohibit EMPLOYEES from submitting cards for grading.

==> But Foreman is NOT AN EMPLOYEE. He is an owner. So, the policy does not restrict him. There is no comfort to be taken from this policy, with regard to potentially huge conflicts of interest.

==> And because there is now litigation afoot, SGC conveniently cannot comment on whether Foreman's raw cards were being submitted to his own company for grading . . . This silence speaks volumes, says it all. If this were untrue, it would be the easiest thing in the world for SGC to announce. They'd take out a full page ad in SCD.


Very sad, as I really like how SGC has been approaching the vintage NS world lately. I really like how Brian has been good to this board. I really like how cards look in their holders. I tend to like their grading standards. But I sure don't like these shenanigans.

this is NOT a cut on marty, this is NOT said to offend him, i am only making a point about 3rd party grading. he sold a group of 3 stooges cards for over $125k in a Mastro auction last Dec.... without the psa label the cards wouldnt have achieved that, what are the chances that winner who is a stooge freak had ceiling bids that were shilled to the max? it is very possible, to me that shows the incredible out of control prices in this hobby as well as many other examples.

look..... auction houses have been shilling people for decades. how about the fine art business, ok, some employee is on the phone driving up the floor bidder to millions of dollars... how the hell do you know if someone is really on the other side of the phone that is really capable of buying the piece?

when you have an auctioneer babbling a million miles an hour spewing what the bid is up to there is no way the average person has the ability to listen to the next bid and realize if someone actually put their paddle up. the auctioneer just goes to the next bid level.

at the end of the day its about money. cards have to be graded in order to achieve the highest payout. money makes people crazy, just look at what it can do to families, business associates, marriages, ect, ect...

what's the difference if Forman had his own cards graded OR back in the day before 3rd party grading that some dealer trimmed his T206's or Goudeys and sold them as mint because he said so. really they are about the same. you think ol' bill mastro found that perfect Wagner just like its encapsulated, he sold that card to a guy for $110,000.00 and ordered a mercedes. what's the difference?

ummm, i dont want to disappoint anybody but that was ""not me"" with the mastro sale!!! i wish people would ask me before they assume. this has happened so many times i lost count. rand may have heard this from another source i dont know, but i have not sent in nonsports to mastro ""ever"". rea yes, mastro and everbody else ""no"". i would love to take credit but not me. i did sell on ebay the 3 psa 9 ck.lists for $75,000.

for some reason i thought they were your cards, never the less, i think my point is still valid.

I made the decision to stop buying from Mastro Auctions when Doug Allen admitted to taking creases out of cards. I said to myself I don't care if its the last card I need in psa 8 or better to finish a set I will not buy it. I subsequently met with Doug in Pa and he basically said he didn't do it anymore.

Shortly after that a group of collectors met in my midtown office in New York City to discuss how we were going to clean up the hobby and everything was discussed from forming a collectors association to setting standards that every dealer would follow. Barry Sloate was there, I think Michael Sarno was there and I know Al Crisafulli was there. Who walked in together next was Dave Forman and Doug Allen(I think--Barry can confirm). Talk about the odd couple. Having Doug there was actually a negative to getting anything accomplished and the effort soon dissapated. Irony of ironies though to have Dave and Doug walk in together and be part of a 6-person meeting on how to change the hobby!

Jim

jim, quite a story. at the end of the day, from a long time ago, every dealer (before 3rd party grading) had the chance to sell mint cards that they created. whether they trimmed oversized T206's or came across uncut sheets and did their own surgery, or just a basic trim job. the auction company & the grading company is the perfect storm, especially if they are in kahoots. i am not implying mastro & sgc, nor am i implying psa & superior auction house. what i am saying is if the cards are pressed and hold long enough to get encapsulated the auction company is immediately off the hook, if the encapsulated card is cracked out and then a crease begins to show signs then the grading company is off the hook since the card has been broken out. a perfect marriage.

there was/is to much money involved for any of this to stop.

so many people can doctor up their cards from pressing out creases, to soaking, ect, ect... so its not just the auction houses that do it.

****** someone please answer this question**** last year Forman was brought to court because he held a guys 52 mantle GAI 9 in his safe and wouldnt return it. has that been settled??????

Hi all,

Keeping the hobby vendors honest sounds like a good idea. What came of your initial meeting, Jim? Sounds like something we should all be supporting.

Best in collecting,

Bill Bengen

Bill,

Back when I was on the vintage card board I called out all the major auction houses given concerns in the hobby about card alteration, shill bidding etc. to explain their policies--I think virtually all refused to do so. The exception at least in the beginning was Doug Allen of Mastronet who in response to a series of questions that I posed to him on what constituted card alteration admitted to taking creases out of cards.

This led to a call for a collectors association which would create a series of standards for the industry and each major dealer or auction house would have to sign on to win a seal of approval. Alas, it never got off the ground. Having Doug and Dave at the initial meeting certainly did not help and their was disagreement over what should be done. I also did not have the time to invest in getting this started. I was a faulty messenger as I was very controvertial on Net 54 at the time but I didn't care as my mission was not to make friends it was to wake up the hobby.

Also certain other people on Net 54 objected to my questioning either because they were consigning cards to Mastronet, certain dealers were their friends or they wanted Net 54 to go back to the old format.

My own view Bill is that there are a lot of bad people in the hobby. I have been and am very concerned about card alteration. I think PSA and SGC are the good guys and I have been urging them to beef up their knowledge of all the card alteration techniques out there. Another good guy in my opinion is Kevin Saucier who knows more about card alteration than virtually anyone and I know shares my concerns.

There are auction houses and dealers that I simply will not buy from because of things I have heard from sources I consider reliable.

Jim

hi jim,
could you please give us a list of the auction houses and dealers we should not buy from? we respect your trust and help in keeping our hobby pure.
thank you,
kind regards,
m

Anonymous or M--what is your real name?

matthew gallegly is my real name, but all my friends call me m or slacker due to my first published book you know you're a slacker if...
kind regards,
m

You should not sign in as anonymous then.

Most of my information is picked up from sources I trust and is not 100% confirmed but since I believe it to be true I do not buy from these auction houses anymore. Since it is not 100% verifiable, I would not want to publish their names.

Jim

Hello to All ,

Can you still claim the 5th ?

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Mark

why is mastro the only auction house outed here, didnt the FBI deliver papers to some others at the national? no way is mastro the only one doing that stuff.