actually i know why, it's become a huge pissing contest between the "i want to be #1 at all costs" registry folk. i am reffering to these auctions last week. 1966 batman (black bat).
sorry i dont know how to post a clickable link to the auctions.
item #- 230366060514 $2,950
230366060396 $2,617
230366060217 $2,376
140339010191 $2,861
140339010107 $1,800
total = $12,604.......
there were other nonspots cards that sold for big bucks, these are the most excessive.
i am never one to back down from paying a premium for a card i need, but this is ridiculous!!! this has nothing to do with the set being popular, short printed cards, etc,etc,. has everything to do with #1 status. hey you know what, to each thier own, but for cards that 10 years ago would sell for $5 each (high end) at a philly show it is a bit excessive to me. the registry when first introduced was fun. trying to build a nice high end set for yourself and waiting for those few cards you needed. the prices were for the most part were still affordable . it is not much fun anymore. 95% of what i got graded i sent in raw, aside form a few sets i have bought the submmissions were mine, gald i got what i got when i got it.

just when you thought it was safe to bid on a graded card again.

again please dont get me wrong, if somebody on here bought them good luck with the purchases, i am sure you are happy. like i said to each their own, this is just my worthless opinion.

Marty your opinion is not worthless. This is exactly why I'm happy with PSA1 to 5 range graded cards. I refuse to spend the crazy sums that high grade PSA cards get.

What I like is the chances having PSA Set Registry sets give me for trading plus the offers I get. Those who know me are aware that I am almost always willing to downgrade if the trade offer is right.

I like slabbed cards for the protection they offer. Plus quite frequently I hit the PSA lotto.

marty, looks to me your opinion is worth about $12,000

marty you're right these prices sure seem insane to me as well, batman, stooges and few other tv show titles really go for some crazy coin these daze.
now the zillion $ question what psa set do you think will explode in price next? from 50s- 60s

can you chime in on my sky bird post.

I agree that the prices some PSA 10's bring is insane. It's really like PSA is printing money. I've looked at PSA 8's, 9's, and 10's of the same card at shows and can't really tell a difference with the naked eye. I'm not saying there isn't a difference, just that it wouldn't be worth paying for it to me since I can't see it. However, if you are in the game of having the best set on the registry and that is fun for you (and you have the $$$), then have fun! I certainly understand getting cards graded, I just can't fathom paying the kind of money some people are willing to pay for such an incremental improvement.

Marty, there will be a correction on these card prices, even the "insane" will run out of money spent on their pride.

When I get confused/irratated I try to remember something a man once told me:
" If you try to understand...you will drive yourself crazy. If you learn to accept...you find happiness"

very wise words charlie

There really is no explanation for these prices and like always I wish I happened to be the seller not the buyer.
Slacker, you raised a great question and I think you should start a new thread on it.

There's nothing wrong with paying top dollar for quality items. But grading is sometimes flawed and often subjective. If the 8 was graded a 10 and the 10 an 8, the top prices would go to the 8. Or is it the other way around?

And Eric, there are some different shades to the subjectivity issue you raised.

There is not only possible 'Subjectivity' as in one grader seeing a card as Exmt but the guy seated next to him seeing it as Ex . . . .

There is also possible 'Subjectivity' as in cards submitted by large customers ('whales' like the auction houses or a few of the monsterbucks sportcard collectors) being potentially treated differently from others . . . I think this is the much more serious issue.

Unfortunately, all that clamor right now about the auction houses and their practices centers on their relationship with consignors, big customers and, of course, the grading companies. This mix generates all sorts of potential for conflict of interest, lack of objectivity, etc. What a mess.

After seeing the closeups of shaved corners on graded cards in the baseball thread (posted on our board by Eric B) that last thing I would want to do is shell out 3 grand on a gem mint common

Hi all,

Marty has raised some troubling points, amplified by the other commentators. I rarely bid on PSA-9 and PSA-10 cards anymore, because (1) prices for some series have become absurd, (2) as one observer said, it is hard to distinguish them from a nicely centered PSA-8, and (3) I expect I will be able to pick the same cards up later at cheaper prices, when the owners go bust. It's happened to me before. It will happen again.

The Set Registry could be viewed as a friendly competition which can cement friendships. I know that I regularly check the sets of competing collectors to see if I have cards which would help them. In a few cases, those cards have helped their sets pass mine on the Registry! But, what's more important- being #1, or having good friends?

Apparently for some people, dominance trumps conviviality. There's a high price to be paid for unbridled ambition, both in dollars and psychic reward. I choose not to go there. I try to stay away from the Dark Side of the Registry, where the beast rssides.

It would be interesting if everyone would be forced to post the cost basis of their sets on the PSA Set Registry. I bet mine would be among the lowest for top sets. Marty Quinn is a very astute buyer too; he would probably have low costs as well. The cost of some sets must be unbelievable, judging from the bidding for individual cards! "Never overpay for a card" is my motto. The card will still be out there, and you may catch it on the rebound for half the price.

Best in collecting,

Bill Bengen

"Why??"

Because they're auctions! One guy bid more than the other guy who bid more than the third guy and so on! Whale-on-whale crime!

No disrespect to Marty or Bill or anyone else but at its heart this is just another sore auction loser thread. Marty had a fair crack at the cards like everyone else but he didn't close. Coffee and wingdings are for closers only, and it sounds insincere and ingracious for Marty to wish the winner good luck right after he called the bidding a pissing contest.

I think an astute collector is one who can win or lose an auction with the same equanimity..

Hey Jeff,

You apparently think Marty is a sore loser; that's your right. I don't happen to agree, and I fail to see the purpose of even making that comment. But how about commenting on the main thrust of his post, which was that the PSA Registry leads to some undesirable consequences? Do you have anything to say of substance or contribute to the debate? We are all waiting to hear.

You turned your post into a personal attack, despite your claim of "meaning no disrespect". This forum will go nowhere if people persist in making personal attacks and not dealing with substance. A lot like American civilization in toto nowadays.

Bill Bengen

hi Bill- see, here is where we disagree: I don't think the thrust of this thread has much to do with the PSA registry; it has more to do with how auctions work. I took the time to review the auctions that Marty cited. He didn't cite the registry. He cited specific auctions for specific cards. I looked at the auctions. Crazy bidding. Yes, I think Marty is being a sore loser. Personal attack? Lighten up Bill jeez. What are these "undesirable consequences" that you pull out of the ether?

I lose more auctions that ever, my batting average on snipes is terrible, I'm priced out of a lot of the stuff I collect, yet I'm having as much or more fun collecting than ever. If someone wins a card I want, I'm still having fun. It costs me no money to lose an auction. I don't think people who outbid me are less astute than me.

Marty says he's not having fun. This worries me. The prices of cards worries me not.

Sorry to be the dissenting voice in this thread but every thread should have at least one..

Marty, I thought paying $75,000.00 for your three Three Stooges cards was ridiculous. Compared to that, $2,000 or $3,000 for a card seems like nothing. Plus, why would the Three Stooges be more popular than Batman? I'm sure a huge majority of Americans have seen a Batman movie, but probably very few of them under the age of 40 have ever seen a Three Stooges movie or tv show. And what about Mars Attacks? Mars Attacks PSA 9s sell for $3000-$5000 these days, and again I gotta believe Batman is way more popular than Mars Attacks.

Just my two cents.

Alan

There doesn't seem to be a real "ceiling" on popular sets, especially ultra high end cards in those sets. Another case in point is the HOW set. IMHO the NS arena is gradually coming into it's own, and prices naturally follow. It will probably get worse before it gets better......

yeah building my 1940 superman set to a psa gpa of 5.43 some of the low # psa 7 cost 200-350.00 range high # psa 4 some cost over $500.00 a card insane and yet i paid those prices cuz A i'm crazy or B needed them to complete my set.

Dear Jeff,

You claim Marty didn't mention the Registry in his post. But check again- he mentioned it in his first sentence.

I have no problems with people dissenting, as you aver. I ask only that they do so in a respectful fashion. But apparently you, like many people in our culture, are so accustomed to disrespectful behavior, you accept it as the norm. I do not.

My litmus test of any comment I post is whether I would be willing to say it to the individual when he was standing in front of me. It is easy to spit invective into the virtual ether- no consequences. I bet you wouldn't have the courage to call Marty a sore loser if he was in your presence now. And I bet you wouldn't be telling me to "lighten up" either.

Best in collecting,

Bill Bengen

Bill - with all due respect, how is "it's become a huge pissing contest between the "i want to be #1 at all costs" registry folk" respectful? This seems to be a 'call the winner out on the carpet' thread. Am I wrong?

i have no dog in this fight. but i can see where people are coming from. perception works wonders when a group of people see or read the same thing. i have never seen bill so aggressive, did you switch to Sanka this weekend? i can promise this, everything i have ever wrote i would say in that persons face.

why are cards getting so expensive... Registry driven only. i believe there are two kinds of collectors, 1. the beauty of collecting and enjoying the process from the inside without bringing attention to every single transaction and themselves 2. people who have to blow their own horn through the registry, thats all they ever talk about psa 8 this and psa 9 that, these are the ones that are making up for some short comings in life.

"It would be interesting if everyone would be forced to post the cost basis of their sets on the PSA Set Registry. I bet mine would be among the lowest for top sets. Marty Quinn is a very astute buyer too; he would probably have low costs as well. The cost of some sets must be unbelievable, judging from the bidding for individual cards! "Never overpay for a card" is my motto.''

This quote is very very telling and likely explains why Bill's collection seems to be contracting versus expanding. I did not view Jeff's comment as taking a personal swipe. If anything Marty and Bill are taking personal swipes at anyone willing to pay higher prices or a price above perceived market valuations basically calling them morons with more money then brains. If you are not willing or able to adapt to the new paradigm, other people are picking up where you left off and taking this hobby to the next level. Celebrate not hate them! Opportunism is fine but do not cry when you are unable to win the best of the best these days or you can just wait like a snake in the grass for some big sets to go to auction.

DJR. ya da man. you are one of those great guys they talk about on the baseball side. i have to agree with some of your points. i agree 100% whole heartedly about the highest price paradigm thing, considering this is your genre. if you can (obviously you are) making a living and selling at the top of the market, hats off to you.

even though we have clashed, i have to give you credit for holding out until someone pays your price (no sarcasm here)

DJR i ask you an honest question, please respond to it.. do you think alot more baseball guys are coming to nonsports are so used to paying such high psa prices that these prices seems like bargains? (not just these cards in particular) or are non sports guys just cutting loose?

let it be said, let it be written, i agreed with Alan! i now need to take a xanax

NS is coming into its' own, and prices are reflecting that. Nobody in our hobby should be disrespected, including the "high flyers" or "whales". Consider appearances before charging forward with comments about others, labeling them before we know who they are and why they do what they do. Respect is not a right of passage, but rather it's earned when it is given.

2 more cents

I think it all come down to your personal motivation for collecting and if you happen to have the wallet to match then there is no restriction.

Just keep in mind that you cannot use a single sale to establish a market value.

... but I don't think these recent PSA 10 examples were that out of line. Let's take a closer look:

The majority of these auctions had three people over $2,000. The way the snipes went, who knows if someone's bid didn't show up, which would mean there are more players to these cards than meets the eye.

Out of nearly 4,200 examples, graded by PSA to date, only 23 examples have been awarded (182:1) the elusive "10" grade.

PSA 9's from this issue, I'd estimate, average $400. Some have peaked as high as $900, for low population examples. These examples averaged a little over $2,700. Which is just under 7x the PSA 9 average selling price.

Last year, Memory Lane sold an example in PSA 10 (#47) for a little north of $1,000. It was quickly resold on eBay for $2,500 (It was a "Best Offer" if I recall). I believe that was the first publically offered "10", which quickly led me to believe there is strong demand for these cards last year! If that example could fetch $2,500, each of these examples should realize similar levels. This year, Legendary sold a "Red Bat" example in PSA 10 (#29A) for a little under $2,200. Estimating the average price of PSA 9's in that set is $250, that's nearly 9x.

What was offered in the past, and what is available now are two different beasts. Does it make sense that high end Batman cards "10 years ago would sell for $5 each", in top condition now are averaging $400+? Yes! Comparing now to 10 or 15 years ago, much has changed. Look at the Callahan sets... years ago, they were throw in's to finish off a deal. Those "throw in's", in PSA 9, believe it or not, peaked at $1,000+ a card.

<< It would be interesting if everyone would be forced to post the cost basis of their sets on the PSA Set Registry. I bet mine would be among the lowest for top sets. >>

Hi Bill:

Is that a fair analysis? Seeing as there are collectors who have been collecting these sets when they were worth a fraction of what they are worth today? Essentially, that means that any "new" collector is hindered, because their cost basis is higher than others.

I recall Marty mentioning that he bought a dozen Topps Elvis sets... kept a few sets for himself, and sold the rest for a profit. He's sitting on a goldmine now! Now can that be done today?

Best,
Steve

"Look at the Callahan sets... years ago, they were throw in's to finish off a deal. Those "throw in's", in PSA 9, believe it or not, peaked at $1,000+ a card."

this set (callahans) is completely manipulated. there is one guy who decided to corner the market and buy as many as he can get his hands on, obsessed with these things. i think he bids up and buys to keep the prices higher than they should be. when a new collector comes to the set, they buy a lot of cards from him (ebay) as he has 100's for sale all the time. there are a couple of guys that have money and will pay up, but SMR is not reality at all, just a way to entice new buyers into thinking they are getting a good deal. i like the set, i am building the set, but i have learned (very quickly) to cut through the BS on it.

... than meets the eye. But for that issue, there was more than just that one guy. And that's what drove the prices to $1,000+ in certain instances, a few years ago. And actually, the prices have dropped considerably for these cards now. My point was not about how crazy a collector is, or what their motives are, but that much has changed over the last 10-15 years.

Hello Group:

I see that some of you thought that Marty Q's statement of having a Pissing Contest was a not nice way to introduce is thread.

It actually put a smile on my face because at summer camp, when I was eight, I actually HAD a Pissing Contest (OK, I finished 3rd, but I gave it my best aim).

Where is this thread going? Lets pull it out of the gutter.

jeff k- siad "No disrespect to Marty or Bill or anyone else but at its heart this is just another sore auction loser thread. Marty had a fair crack at the cards like everyone else but he didn't close."- so jeff this means every auction i bid in and lose i am a sore loser correct?.......... so this is your profile on me. or am i missing something? since when being in shock of cards that have gone for big money equate to being a sore loser?

jeff again-"He didn't cite the registry. He cited specific auctions for specific cards."- you must have been so focused working on my profile jeff you probably read the post to fast!! expalin this one for me, thanks.


alan moon-Marty, I thought paying $75,000.00 for your three Three Stooges cards was ridiculous....... you are correct, where did you see me say it wasnt that you needed to add alan??



dave b-Bill - with all due respect, how is "it's become a huge pissing contest between the "i want to be #1 at all costs" registry folk" respectful? This seems to be a 'call the winner out on the carpet' thread. Am I wrong?" ...yeah your wrong dave b!!! just because i have an opinion does not mean i am disrespecting the guy. maybe thats your feeling but not mine. call the winner out on the carpet- this made me laugh, thanks. i could care less who bouhgt them, if they resell tommorrow for twice that i still dont care. "you have to be kidding with this crap"

steve lucas- you have a point, all is relative. times have changed, and not to blow smoke but "i" have helped big time with that change, as well as bill b, and as well as everyone on here. so to make an absolute "wrong" statement as saying some people here are not rolling with the changes is so far from the truth. this from a guy who hopes to sell at the highest of his buy it nows, yeah i know you have the -cover my ass -make an offer auction(s). always easy to pile on right djr !!

i had a good feeling a few would take that and make it into what it wasnt intended. so what, i think it was a pissing contest between 2 registry guys!! so what you *******s. this thread has been up for a few days, wating like snakes in the grass for somebody to break the ice!! djr knows what that means. i have been on this forum since day 1, and some still think that only their opinion and the way they feel matters. and that it's ok to make assumtions.

Marty - I respect your position in the NS world, as well as Bill B's. That being said and meant, I would request that you be constructive in your response, as this is a reflection on the community. "you have to be kidding with this crap" is disrespectful and destructive, as well as other comments in your response. Longevity to me must be supported by actions and choice of words to be fully valid.
This is an open forum welcoming all that are in the hobby, and it would be a shame to lose good members, new or old, based on personal attacks and innuendo. Now I'm open to your constructive criticism, and promise to be objective with your response.........

Marty, you wrote, "there were other nonspots cards that sold for big bucks, these are the most excessive." I think $75,000 for three cards is slightly more excessive. That's why I felt the need to respond.

Alan

Umm, Marty was referring to the ones that completed in the last week. Not all-time.

And I was just using the $75,000 sale to support my point that $2,000 or $3,000 for a card does not seem ridiculous.

Alan

''i am never one to back down from paying a premium for a card i need''

LOL

i dont follow marty's purchases, i do know he bought the sky bird at mastro last year and it was $24,000. thats a nice sum and he was the top bidder, i guess mastro was the under bidder.

i guess in DJR's world thats chump change when you can buy any of his BIN on ebay for around the same price. i think he had a group of sgc 60 goudey indians for $85,000 OR BEST OFFER

ob·jec·tiv·i·ty [ òb jek tívvtee ]

1. ability to view things objectively: the ability to perceive or describe something without being influenced by personal emotions or prejudices

I'm no better than anyone else here with this, but I do think we need to practice......

The Skybirds set was a steal realizing a $20,000 - $30,000 loss for the consignor. This is not Marty's fault! The set was and is clearly worth much more. $85,000 BIN for Goudey Indians? You lost me.

i was just kidding you with your ebay prices, they are great prices.

the sky bird set was beyond a steal, BUT you did not bid on it?? i know that was marty's last bid so the next increment would have won it. i knew the owner of that set and felt terrible he got killed on it, one of the nices people you'll meet. i know he spent well over $50,000 on that set.

***why would you let such a terrific deal pass through your hands?

Good question. I should have purchased the set but my collection and passion is N cards. For retail, I typically do not inventory $25,000 - $50,000 items. The market for big ticket non sports is still very thin and do not know many people willing to pay up for high grade graded sets (even if they never back down from paying a premium).

If I may say so, you have an incredible N series collection, and it appears to be growing every day. Unfortunately I can only 'live vicariously' through your PSA registry. One question - do you think the N series cards will come into their own anytime in the near future? Some obviously have already, but it seems to me most of these cards are more rare than many 20th century cards and yet prices don't seem to follow. What's the kicker?

Hi Dave, Thanks for the nice words of encouragement. At times, my pursuit of anything N related feels lonely. I welcome & encourage others but to date few people are collecting graded N cards sets & typically just a few sets. It is a mixed blessing & what Marty and Bill currently deal with on a regular basis...prices are higher with more collectors involved but finding low priced graded upgrades or low priced high end raw cards virtually impossible. I know a dozen or more collectors working on complete raw N and/or T set collections. Many if not most issues from the 1880s and early 1890s seem scarcer then the more popular modern counterparts (50s - 60s but even 1930s - 1940s) and some super rare. As I collect more sets, I am quickly figuring out what is super rare. As we all know, value is based on supply & demand. Both supply & demand is lacking for high grade N cards. It is NOT lacking for raw cards and can not keep these in stock. This makes me very happy, enabling me to build the non sports collection of my dreams.

Hi Marty- don't mean to profile you or anyone else- I meant to disagree with you. In this particular instance, you sounded like a sore loser, and your congratulations didn't sound genuine. Maybe I should have made sure that you actually placed a bid on at least one of the Batman lots. I just assumed that. If you weren't one of the bidders, just watching the auctions as a interested spectator, then you aren't a sore loser (just sore) and I gladly apologize and wish you all the fun in the world. And for the record I think you have an excellent profile.

Tell you what, though- you haven't really arrived as a human being on this planet until someone calls you a symbol of all that's wrong with American culture. That is just awesome. I feel like I've been knighted. Maybe I'll get a free hat or a T-shirt or a coat of arms or something to go along with such a heavy responsibility.

Jeff - for what it's worth I think you said nothing wrong. Unfortunately things can tend to get out of hand, myself not withstanding.

I will second Jeff's motion and appologize to anyone I offended, including Marty and Bill. Hat in hand.

(smiley face)

listen people-i dont need any appologies, this is your opinoin of me. i am fine with that.(does not mean i will take it of course..) here is my point, i have mine of that auction(s). so whats wrong with that?? what am i missing?? and i did put at the end of my post my opinion. but still a select few had to twist a little. djr is just a huge ass!!! he can bid on anything that i do, but he took his high road. "i only buy n stuff" yada yada yada, looks to me you are a dealer in lots of era's not just 1880's. i never had a problem with you until now, nor did i offer any opinion to people that asked me about you and what you sell...i never bashed, until now. thats right a pay a premium, i dont pay a ransom. your just to much of a moron to understand this. wow what an ******* you are!!!

djr,dave,jeff,- you guys act like only your side counts. get over it. next!!!

I think that Marty's post may have been poorly constructed at worst but fully understand as I tend to ramble or put my thoughts down as they dart through my mind.

If this deserves or qualifies for disection by group members "editors" as a way to throw bombs or make attacks ,then we are all in trouble.

Alan- I thought the same thing "3 stooges" as I was reading MQ's post but knew he was speaking to a current matter. Who would turn that sale down?

Marty is a stand up guy and an asset to net54.

Obviously, there are many axe's to grind here on net54 judging by the responses.

Can't we all get just get along? " a la rodney king "

aaaahhhhh!!!! now i get it, listen up folks, this djr jerk tried to make a deal with me a few years back for a bunch of psa 9 mostly 50's nonsports, the deal was for multiple thousands. i cant remember how much and have not researched my old email yet, he said he could do better, ok i said, he came back with something absolutley laughable...i think it was like .88% off....not even 1%, it was a rip-off price. we left it not the best of friends, but not fighting either. now i get the whole thing, hi figures he would hide behind jeff k's post and it wouldnt look bad because he was just chiming in..lol,lol..what a jerk this guy is...i wish you knew him like i do..i might be mistaken but i think he tried this with bill bengen to...he tries to sell 1978 rocky 2 stickers amongest other stuff for crazy money...yup this is the guy lol..... jeff you got your sore looer all wrong, it;s this sheep djr....lol..i have to get off so i can laugh for an hour....lol...

rand- you gotta love this guy, i dont care what people say about him, he puts it to ya and you better have a good response. your a blood hound rand, you sniff them out pal, good for you.

alan- maybe eric can help you, i see he trying, and if you compare a batman card to some of the toughest 1950's cards (stooge ck-lists) i feel for ya pal. i thought you were getting it, guess not, your right there is no difference.

Marty, your insults, foul mouth and attitude are not constructive but thanks for showing your true colors. Do not claim to know me. We have never made a deal, never met and never spoken. So what if we could not make the deal and you backed out of after writing, ''i will take so far...''. I did not feel a compelling reason to offer a discount to a possible first time customer for the best of best, after I quoted pricing and you told me you would take them (at the quoted pricing). Asking for a discount after the fact is bad form but figured we were simply not on the same page. I moved on, you? This was in 2007. Get over it, next! Since we agree to disagree, all of the sudden, I am bad guy. Let me wish you continued success befriending and shaking down the old time raw collectors with high end raw cards. Hopefully they are smart enough to read through your I'm a good guy and I want to be your friend facade. Also, use a spell checker on your emails and postings. To me, it makes you look like a uncaring buffoon.

lol, again you got me falling over...i exposed you and now you dont like it, you started with me ass!! there i did it again..thats right, i am no way going to be nice to somebody that "assumes" and then says what he wants to and expect me to not retaliate!! if spell check is your best your pitiful, holding a grudge after 2 years you are still pitiful...you told me pick what i want and you would do better...please everbody see this...it was something like 0.80% of a discount, on something liken $5,000 worth, wow thats doing better pal..whew you knoocked me over..btw i am friends with rand before my compliment..i keep poking holes dont i. i knew there was a reason you were fixated on me, i just had you on the "pay no mind " list for all of these years. dont throw insults if you dont like it!! so thats the reason folks....a deal that was never made so djr took the chance and decided to get me back...

this goes for jeff k also...if you want to be a jerk in a public forum against somebody expect it back!!!!!!!! the sore loser is your buddy djr...get your facts straight.

if somebody does not like me fine. but i am telling you right now i will give back what you give me!!! you want to tell me off, dont like what i say, email me private. do not go on a public forum and do spineless crap like this.

12/10/07 (me) hi marty, (15) 1954 Power For Peace, $150 PSA 9s (Pop 1): 10, $120 PSA 9s (Pop 2 & 3): 5... $2,100, (9) 1953 Antique Autos, $400 PSA 10s (Pop 1): 2, $150 PSA 9s (Pop 1 & 2): 3, $100 PSA 9s (Pop 3): 4 $1,650, Please advise. Best Regards, David
12/11/07 (Marty) - hi david, i will take so far. antique autos #9,12,17,30 poer for peace #10,13,18,27,50,52,59,65,74,84,89,91,94

You are all over the map. It was $4,000. All emails archived. Seems pretty straightforward to me. I quoted price and you replied, 'i will take so far'. Maybe you should have stated, I will take so far but plan to add $500 - $1,000 more cards then renegotiate the entire deal. You must have learned this trick from Alan Rosen or Alan Hagar. Holding a grudge? Once again, you have me confused with someone else.

there you go once again bashing somebody, now its alan rosen and alan hager. real nice djr real nice, please show the archived email of your discount, it's priceless...