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What are the two rarest non sports cards?

June 4 2010 at 9:23 PM
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  (Login hfire)

The 30K Superman guy says he has the two rarest non sports cards. Baseball has the Holy Grail, But what about over here, I would love to hear what you guys think are the hardest cards to get. Thanks Ted

TM

 
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Eric B
(Login egbeachley)

Re: What are the two rarest non sports cards?

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June 4 2010, 9:46 PM 

I have 20-30 cards that only 1 are known to exist.

 
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Claude
(Login Gamebits)

Re: What are the two rarest non sports cards?

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June 4 2010, 9:48 PM 

There is probably a lot of cards which are one of a kind, many tobacco card sets still have incomplete checklist BUT any of these cards would not bring the attention or value that a "Mckinley", "Strongman" or "Cowboy outfit" would bring.

If you are looking for what are the key cards on each major sets, well that's a secret

 
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(Login hfire)

Rarest?

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June 4 2010, 10:10 PM 

Co'mon Guys, You have to have an opinion, no one will commit, top 2 then what about top 5? It is the weekend & I have to have a few cards to look for (just kidding). But really, would love to hear some names.

TM

 
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(Login Gamebits)

Re: What are the two rarest non sports cards?

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June 4 2010, 10:22 PM 

I just gave you 3 names

The McKinley I think there is only 2 known
The Strongman I don't think there is one authenticated yet
The Cowboy Outfit One of the member of this board bought one not long ago, and there is another member (may be two) who also have one.

Look in the gallery.

http://www1.coe.neu.edu/~dan/z-ns-tuffies/rare.html
http://www1.coe.neu.edu/~dan/z-ns-tuffies/tuff.html

 
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(Login aelefson)

Re: What are the two rarest non sports cards?

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June 4 2010, 10:25 PM 

Ted-
I would recommend checking the gallery as Dan C created webpages for rare and super rare cards. I believe there was also an excellent thread about rare NS cards a year or two ago. I would agree with what is written above and what is shown in the gallery in terms of some of the most sought after NS cards.
Yours in collecting,
Alan Elefson

 
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ted
(Login hfire)

thanks

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June 4 2010, 11:31 PM 

thanks guys, greatly appreciated

TM

 
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Eric B
(Login egbeachley)

Re: What are the two rarest non sports cards?

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June 4 2010, 11:34 PM 

There are at least 5 McKinley's and over a dozen WW Cowboy Outfit cards. But they aren't nearly as rare as the 20-30 cards I have of which there are only 1 known. And I'm not talking printing errors or similar. Here's a few I already have scanned. Actually the Contentnea's aren't mine, they are Bill Humphrey's and his are also 1 of 1. But I have others. And I know Tom and David R and many others have several uncatalouged N-cards. probably a lot more than I do.

[IMG][linked image][/IMG]

[IMG][linked image][/IMG]

[IMG][linked image][/IMG]





    
This message has been edited by egbeachley on Jun 4, 2010 11:39 PM
This message has been edited by egbeachley on Jun 4, 2010 11:36 PM


 
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(Login 30s_non-sport_gum)

Re: What are the two rarest non sports cards?

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June 5 2010, 5:32 AM 

There is an important aspect that needs to be considered when asking about rare cards, prices, etc.

It's not just which cards have the lowest populations. Any number of our Forum's members could probably dredge up groups of one-of-a-kinds from their shoe boxes . . . trade cards, etc. Dan's "junker" box is probably a treasure trove of these. happy.gif

But those probably won't excite all of us very much because the issue isn't just about population size . . . it's really about the extent to which demand outstrips that supply.

Maybe there are 20 Honus Wagners out there (I don't know, making up a number) but there are hundreds upon hundreds of avid baseball card collectors who all want the card and are willing to pay up for the honor. Result: bingo! High-priced scarce cards.

Another good example might be the Hitler cards in Horrors of War. These are actually not as difficult as many folks believe, probably not THAT much more difficult than some of the other of the scarce high number HOW runs. The difference, though, is that many or most collectors will know something about the Hitler cards, even when the rest of HOW draws a blank for them. They may decide to collect a few type cards from HOW, and target the familiar Hitler cards. Also, there will probablyu be a lot of potential crossover collectors (war buffs, Nazi collectors, history collectors, etc.) As a result, the demand/supply ratio for the Hitler cards is way higher than other HOW cards. Result: bingo again! Strong prices.

So this starts to makes it easier to accept the pricing anomalies such as Honus Wagner vs McKinley. There are probably way more Wagners than McKinleys, hands down. But looking at the relative sizes of the bidding populations for each card, it's easy to see why the McKinley card might be $15k on a good day, but Honus hits 7 digit prices.


 
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(Login carbking)

Re: What are the two rarest non sports cards?

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June 5 2010, 5:44 PM 

This thread could probably easily divide into: (A) rarest N/S cards; (B) most valuable N/S cards.

Jon.

 
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(Login WarHoundR69)

Re: What are the two rarest non sports cards?

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June 5 2010, 7:12 PM 

Actually there are about 50 T206 Honus Wagner cards out there.

 
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Rand
(Login Thrill-of-the-Hunt)

my 2 cents

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June 5 2010, 10:15 PM 

back from a nice long week off.

good thread. ralph, once again pretty much sums it up. there are about 100 wagners out there (so far) they keep coming out of the attic, i think at least 5 "new" wagners have surfaced over the last few years. ty cobb/ty cobb back has about 10 copies and they are worth a fraction of a wagner in poor condition. (poor wagner around $300,000, cobb back in fair condition $60,000 ish )

anyhow. hands down, #4 strongman from the I'd Like to be set... if an authenticated example hit the auction floor... $20,000 would be a start and perhaps a crazier price beyond that.


 
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Ted
(Login hfire)

Mckinley? High # Indian Gum?

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June 5 2010, 11:34 PM 

Read all the threads of the Marquis (WOW),
I thought some of the Indian gum cards were really hard to find? Are they worth more than 30K Superman?
Is Mckinley really that hard or is it just a rumour? I have a feeling a box is gonna pop out of someone's attic in upstate NY or elsewhere when they hear the value. I think you guys are right the demand determines the price.

How much of a demand is there on Mckinley? I wonder what Mr Moses thinks. Thanks for all the info guys.

TM


    
This message has been edited by hfire on Jun 5, 2010 11:39 PM


 
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(Login WarHoundR69)

Re: What are the two rarest non sports cards?

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June 6 2010, 9:25 AM 

Just a cautionary note about Strong Man No. 4. I have found two more fakes that are identical to mine (As shown in the Benjamin Guide). Apparently a bunch of these were made in the early 80's. If you come across one, first step would be to compare it to the one in Benjamin's book. If the punch holes & void mark line up it is almost certainly a fake (Although the real one they were copied from might still be out there). I've posted scans of my fake Strongman No. 4 before but if anyone is interested I'll email scans of the card to you.


    
This message has been edited by WarHoundR69 on Jun 6, 2010 9:25 AM


 
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(Login WarHoundR69)

Re: What are the two rarest non sports cards?

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June 6 2010, 9:28 AM 

Ted - The Series 288 Indian Gums are the hardest/most valuable but you will pay a few hundred bucks each (If you can find them).

 
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ted
(Login hfire)

Fake Mckinley's, N's, etc

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June 6 2010, 10:17 AM 

If there are so many fake Stongman out there, What about other fakes? Is there a lot out there. A lot of cards look too good to be 120 years old in the N series that I have. I have seen a lot of cards on Ebay for hundreds that look too good, but I've only been collecting maybe 6 months. If the Mckinley is so valuable, are there fakes there too? Thanks

TM

 
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(Login WarHoundR69)

Re: What are the two rarest non sports cards?

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June 6 2010, 11:04 AM 

There are fakes of many cards out there, although I do not know of any McKinley fakes. The best protection is knowledge. After handling many real cards you kinda develop a "SPIDER SENSE" when handling a questionable card. Somehow you just know that some thing is not right. Cann't explain it any better than that.

 
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keith lentz
(Login keithlentz)

Rarest

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June 6 2010, 11:19 AM 

The 2 you want, but don't have.

 
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(Login WarHoundR69)

Re: What are the two rarest non sports cards?

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June 6 2010, 12:13 PM 

You are right Keith - Strongman No. 4 & R37 John Dillinger.

 
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ted
(Login hfire)

fake strongmen

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June 6 2010, 4:26 PM 

Does anyone know were the fake strongmen computer generated or were they the devious handwork of someone?

TM

 
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(Login willhc)

rarest non sport cards

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June 6 2010, 7:07 PM 

Ted, I recently ran across one of the Strongman cards Jerry is referring to and I was prepared to make a huge offer for it, but, taking Jerry's posting and using gathered knowledge from some of the board members I made no offer. Why ? - the Strongman had the exact same holes, coloring, cancelled 'Void' marks as Jerry's card (the one in the Benjamin book) and others had told me to be very careful regarding this card to insure its authenticity.
The card I looked at originated in Massachusetts and was obtained by my source in 1983. Benjamin's book was printed with a copy in 1982 and it appears they were both generated at the same time. Jerry and I know of a third copy as well. I am guessing there may be up to twelve copies of this card around (1930's cards were printed usually in multiples of 12).
Like every hobby, we all dream of finding this card or one similiar to it during our life. It fuels the fire of all collectors.
There have been fakes of many other cards and sets through the years of non sport cards. Most collectors who have handled various amounts of cards can usually tell when something is wrong with a card or with the printing. As Jerry says, you develope 'rabbit eyes' and your hands tell you something is amiss with the card you are holding.
I would bet there are many collectors who could tell you different card issues while being blindfolded.

 
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Ted
(Login hfire)

Anyone come across bad N cards?

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June 6 2010, 8:13 PM 

I've been told not to worry about my N tobacco cards, that no one would bother making a fake $20. - $50. card. It just seems that the paper would turn yellow or something after 120 years.

Also I would just like to say I appreciate everyone's help on this thread. It has gone in different directions but I have learned plenty. Thank you all. Ted M.

TM

 
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(Login steveBirmingham)

Re: What are the two rarest non sports cards?

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June 6 2010, 11:00 PM 

Most of the papers used for N cards won't yellow much. The types of paper that yellow like newsprint are ones with a high wood pulp content. Most other papers were made from varying quantities and types of rags. Those are less acidic by nature and don't necessarily degrade with age.

Usually if they look yellowed it's from being stored next to acidic paper. Like many old scrapbooks, or newspapers, or inside a manilla envelope.

 
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Anonymous
(Login boxingcardman)

Re: What are the two rarest non sports cards?

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June 7 2010, 7:07 PM 

It depends on storage too. I've gotten some gorgeous albumen photo cards in the past that were very white and sharp because they'd been stored away from light and air for many decades.

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

 
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(Login hfire)

the backs

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June 7 2010, 10:59 PM 

Everybody & their brother must have had scrapbooks back in the days of moonshine & tobacco cards. It is so hard to find cards with good backs. Just when you think you have something, you see the back. I feel a lot better about my cards now that you guys have taught me about yellowing, etc. Thanks Ted

TM

 
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Mark H
(Login MorrellMan)

Re: What are the two rarest non sports cards?

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June 8 2010, 7:30 PM 

Any idea how many N9 Roumanias are out there?


    
This message has been edited by MorrellMan on Jun 8, 2010 7:31 PM


 
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(Premier Login autograf)
Forum Owner

Think Eric Beachley

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June 9 2010, 8:38 AM 

Tracks that.........I know he has one and I've seen a couple others. Sure there's more than that but they are scarce, much scarcer than the Corea card. I'd love to have one.............


 
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(Login hfire)

corea

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June 9 2010, 9:24 AM 

I noticed it in the Sweet Caporal/Recruit Flag Series. When did the spelling change from Corea to Korea?

TM

 
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keith lentz
(Login keithlentz)

Re: What are the two rarest non sports cards?

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June 9 2010, 9:48 AM 


 
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Eric B
(Login egbeachley)

Re: What are the two rarest non sports cards?

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June 9 2010, 12:37 PM 

N9 Roumania. Easy to track for me as I have only seen 1 in 12 years of collecting. Either they were not fully printed on the production run they came from (short print of a short print) or folks are holding on to them if they have it.

 
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(Login egbeachley)

Re: What are the two rarest non sports cards?

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June 9 2010, 12:44 PM 

To answer the original question. Obviously there are many new uncatalogued finds and other 1 of 1's out there. So there needs to be another criteria for rarest. To me that would be the "expected card that has not surfaced".

So if a R37 Crime Does Not Pay Dillinger shows up, that would make the list. But until then it can't be included.

For me it would be the T64 McAlpin Robert E Lee card. For over 80 years, from the original publishing of the WTI and ACC it was presumed to have been produced but never found until a few years ago. The other would be Strongman. Nobody knows where it is.

 
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Jayc
(Login MarquisofCards)

Re: What are the two rarest non sports cards?

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June 9 2010, 3:26 PM 

Well i know i am biased here, but i think the Marquis of Lorne N519 would have to be mentioned in the top couple, in terms of scarcest non sports cards. So far 4 have been recorded. One from from Wartons Tigers (sp) collection that is in the British Museum, One from Burdicks collection which is in the Met. One that sold at CHristies several years ago for just over 10,000 and one that i sold at Mastro's a few years back for over 18,000 (the only one that has been graded so far). I have heard of rumors of one or two others in some very old and advanced collections in the UK. but nothing has been confirmed.

 
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(Login hfire)

Most expensive @ auction

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June 9 2010, 11:15 PM 

Most recent auctions: Which went higher Marquis, Strongman, Mckinley, something else?

TM

 
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(Login Gamebits)

Re: What are the two rarest non sports cards?

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June 10 2010, 6:25 AM 

Given that many cards are 1 of 1 and given that many cards are expected to show up at some point but haven't been found yet I think a better barometer for the rarest card would be the card that most people would want but cannot get it, I mean by that unlimited resources, there is many cards I'd like to have but cannot afford them but if I had the money they wouldn't be hard to get.


A quick poll, how many of you need a

- Marquis of Lorne
- McKinley
- Strongman
- The Cowboy Outfit

for your collection?

 
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Chuck Ross
(Login ChuckRoss)

Re: What are the two rarest non sports cards?

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June 10 2010, 6:51 AM 

Claude, I need all four of those but not really looking. If I see a couple at a flea market, I'll pick you up one.

On the Strongman, have we ever verified an authentic card? It's starting to sound like all the ones we've seen were produced in the early 80's. That was a time when some folks were producing replica and extended sets of 30's cards so there was obviously some expertise and interest. Is it possible that Schutter-Johnson never even produced card #4 and someone in the early 80's just made one up?

 
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(Login Gamebits)

Re: What are the two rarest non sports cards?

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June 10 2010, 8:13 AM 

I need those 4 cards as well, what differentiate those 4 cards from all the other one of a kind is they are well known, I think many members of this board going through a large collection of cards would miss very rare but unknown cards (to them) but would not miss one of those 4 cards.

It is impossible to know everything about cards but I think the majority of serious collectors know about these.

Could be a fun game, we upload 50 pictures of cards, all breed, tobacco, gum, food, any era, only one is rare all the others are uncommon but not rare and see how many can pick the rare one without looking in a guide.

Rare and wanted that is what make a "star".

 
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(Login willhc)

one rarest non sport card

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June 10 2010, 2:46 PM 

Chuck, just want to talk about the Strongman card. It gets my vote as the rarest because almost everyone knows about it and none have surfaced. First seen in the Benjamin blue book (to my knowledge) and since then a couple of bogus copies have been found. Jerry currently has one and I have reasonable access to one. The thing is someone had to build or copy the card from an original as my card had definitely an older card feel to it. I know the card is a fake because the holes are drilled in exactly the same spot as the one in Benjamin's book and the 'void' is located exactly in the same spot too. If Jerry resubmits his and is graded 'authentic' I'll make an effort to buy or trade for the 'other' one. The fake card is a great conversation piece regardless.
(The other three 'rare' cards are indeed rare but they exist and you've held Dan's McK. I've seen a WW 25 here on the west coast about twenty to twenty-five years ago and it was a beauty. The Lorne card has been seen a few times and wasn't one sold just recently as part of a lot or did that turn out to be a fake?)

 
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Joe Marciano
(Login bvb5366)

Re: What are the two rarest non sports cards?

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June 10 2010, 7:54 PM 

Bill: Just wondering abour something. If the company actually did issue the prize cards, does it not seem possible that they had a small cancelling machine made to invalidate the prize cards after they were sent in and prevent reuse? All cards would be placed in the canceller and would receive hole punches and a cancelling stamp. Logically, if such a device exsisted, all cancelled cards would look exactly alike. As a long time stamp collector, I expect cancelled items to be alike when run through the same cancelling device. Just a thought that perhaps the cancelled cards are not fakes.


    
This message has been edited by bvb5366 on Jun 10, 2010 8:04 PM


 
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(Login aaron1050)

Re: What are the two rarest non sports cards?

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June 10 2010, 8:16 PM 

Chuck, interesting theory and it seems plausible to me. The company could have been so dead set on not giving out any premiums and wanted kids to keep trying to complete the set (buying their gum) even though it was impossible. It's really not that far of a stretch to get there from the extreme scarcity of the Wild West premium card that we know was produced.

Jerry, dumb question, but did you submit your Strongman to PSA?

 
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(Login WarHoundR69)

Re: What are the two rarest non sports cards?

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June 10 2010, 9:14 PM 

Aaron - Yes I did sub. it. Came back questionable authenticity. I doubt a special canceling machine was used on the cards. More likely a hole puncher and a rubber stamped "VOID".

To answer Claude's question - I have a WW No. 25 (PSA2.5), a fake Strongman but I don't have McKinley or the Lorne card.


    
This message has been edited by WarHoundR69 on Jun 10, 2010 9:20 PM


 
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Chuck Ross
(Login ChuckRoss)

Re: What are the two rarest non sports cards?

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June 11 2010, 7:40 AM 

I guess I am just pondering the possibility that an authentic #4 Strongman was never actually printed. In other words, someone just concocted and painted a plausible #4 card that matched the rest of the set and perhaps made a few copies for friends. One of these was pictured in Benjamin's guide.

Actually, I don't think the above scenario is very plausible but I'll just throw it out there for folks to chew on. I recall old-time dealer declaring in every one of his newsletters that there was no McKinley card and even after some began to surface he refused to believe they were real. I think he has been proven wrong so I have hopes there are real Strongman cards out there.

My last encounter with Val was interesting. In one of his newsletters he stated that any Dietz Play Bucks you found without a crease in them were fakes. I wrote him asking two questions that seemed logical to me: Isn't it possible that unfolded Play Bucks were real but not issued (i.e. never folded and put in a pack)? Why would someone go to the immense trouble of faking such a low value collectible?

I don't recall the exact words of his response but they were along the lines of "You are an idiot" and "Don't ever write me again". Guess I hit a nerve with him somehow. Anyway, I haven't heard or seen Val on the scene for a long time. Does anyone know if he is still living or still in the hobby?

 
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(Premier Login autograf)
Forum Owner

With customer service like that........

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June 11 2010, 8:19 AM 

It's no wonder he's not on the cover of the magazines.........

Great discussion....As many have said, there's tons of very scarce cards in nonsports that may be one of ones but the four that we seem to have settled on are the mainstream biggies.

If you've collected baseball before, you know the Wagner, 33 Goudie Lajoie and others are always considered 'rare' but there are literally dozens of them. I guess comparing the census of baseball collectors actually trying to obtain one of those versus the group of nonsports collectors trying to get one of the ones we've identified, the scarcity per collector is kinda close but in terms of raw numbers the nonsports ones are MUCH more difficult.


 
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(Login cemill)

Re: What are the two rarest non sports cards?

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June 11 2010, 8:40 AM 

I know this doesn't belong here, but maybe some of you who do both sports and nonsports will have some info about it.
N508 Women Basebal Players by Mandelbaum - can't find it listed anywhere and have never seen another - similar back as my N500 Flags and N511 Types of People cards by Mandelbaum.

[linked image]
[linked image]


 
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(Login only_child)

Re: What are the two rarest non sports cards?

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June 11 2010, 3:54 PM 

Somehow I think this card has to be in the mix.


Item_14704_1.jpg

------------------------------

www.AlteredCards.com - in-depth education on advanced card doctoring techniques & detection with detailed examples

 
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(Login PancakeBunny)

Re: What are the two rarest non sports cards?

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June 11 2010, 5:15 PM 

If the "An exciting game" card has a Hassan back I agree; otherwise it is just a card that is as equally available as every other card in that particular set.


    
This message has been edited by PancakeBunny on Jun 11, 2010 5:54 PM
This message has been edited by PancakeBunny on Jun 11, 2010 5:52 PM
This message has been edited by PancakeBunny on Jun 11, 2010 5:15 PM


 
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(Login forbesrs)

Lots of rare ones out there....

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June 11 2010, 5:25 PM 

To give some perspective of the number of rare cards out there, I can offer my experience with T-series cards:

T8 National Types - set of 5 - 4 in Burdick collection, 5 that a collector has, 1 I've seen sold on eBay.

T11 Turkish Trophies premiums - set of 20 - 1 in Burdick collection, 1 with a collector, maybe have seen one other.

T55 Embarrassing Moments - 17 reported in World Index - one with a collector (where I got the image for our book), might be one in Burdick collection (can't remember).

T67 Helmar Girls - 3 reported - one with a collector (where I got the image for our book), might be one in Burdick collection (can't remember).

T71 Hotel Greeting Cards - Burdick has 20 of the 24 titles listed in the World Index. Have never seen another and haven't the foggiest where they got the other 4 titles (maybe Wharton-Tigar had them...).

T75 Italo-Turko War Series - 9 reported - Burdick has a few, maybe Wharton-Tigar has the rest. Have never seen one in the hobby.

T92 Orders & Military Medals -12 reported - I don't think Burdick has one, maybe Wharton-Tigar collection has some - never seen these in the hobby.

T101 Silhouettes - 2 known - Burdick has one, a collector sent in a scan of one for the gallery here, never seen otherwise.

T122 Spanish-American War Scenes - 20 reported in World Index - never seen any & not even sure they exist. Might have been an erroneous entry in the World Index.

T123 Actresses - 16 reported - I think Burdick has one, got copies of two from a collector for the book. Never seen otherwise.

T124 Movie Stars - 120 subjects according to the back text. I've seen 2 or 3 of the supposed 120 in the series....

T125 Flags of All Nations (Lazarakis) - two reported, never seen one, haven't any idea who might have one.

T133 Comic Sketches - 5 reported - the only ones I've seen were in the Burdick collection.

T134 Smoker Portraits - 4 reported - the only ones I've seen were in the Burdick collection.

T137 Gene Tierney card - 1 reported - never seen it.

T139 Renowned Paintings - 1 reported - got a color copy from a collector for the book - only one I've ever seen.

That's 16 series and a fair quantity of total subjects in those series that I would consider rare and I don't use that term lightly. I've specialized in T-series cards for 20 years and have actively been looking for all of the above. There may be examples here & there of these in various collections around the country, but they aren't very prevalent! The same case holds true for some of the series of tobacco silks, flannels, leathers, E-series cards, and particularly N-series cards. There are hundreds of different cards out there in many different series that could be considered "one of a kind" or close to it.

I would agree that you need to take into account the demand in the hobby as well as the supply. I just supplied a whole list of rare cards, but the list of folks interested would be relatively short for any of those series. On the other hand, a McKinley has a lot of potential buyers and would fit the definition of "rarest and most desirable" to separate it from the run-of-the-mill "rare" cards that nobody knows about!

 
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(Login hfire)

Bob - T55

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June 11 2010, 10:49 PM 

Bob - Was the T55 issued any other way besides Murad, I've seen I think 2 of these cards. Maybe a big mistake on my part. Ted

TM

 
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(Login 1880nonsports)

I humbly suggest

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June 12 2010, 1:12 AM 

that T8 isn't or perhaps better put SHOULDN'T be a "T" card. Virginia Cheroots did THREE different size and/or textured prints based on the same five charcters. I have owned all three styles. I would put them in the category of tobacco advertising and unsure why they would be tobacco CARDS - and if they were - certainly the other two would similarly fit the definition. Thoughts from others?
BTW - as was mentioned in Bob's last thoughts - there are MANY - yes I said many - N cards that might as well be one of one - in part because they are mostly obscure photo issues that nobody is ACCUMULATING or sharing information about - and other than the "type" collector - few are interested. Of the first 275 "N" sets - only 7/8 are sets where cards are rarely seen - but quite a few where you just can't go to someone and get the one you're looking for. There are no known sets of a couple of these - perhaps a card or two doesn't exist - and a few sets with unchecklisted cards that might represent one of one..............

 
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(Login only_child)

Re: What are the two rarest non sports cards?

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June 12 2010, 1:17 AM 

From REA:

One of the great rarities in all of nonsport card collecting is entitled "An Exciting Game" and at a glance appears to be an unknown card from the 1910 T53 Hassan Cowboy Series. Technically the card is not actually a T53 in that it is from a 1930s Canadian candy set that borrows the images from T53 Hassan Cowboy Series, with the exception of the image that appears on this card #32 which is unique to this set. This card is actually part of a 1930s Canadian 40-card set entitled "The Cowboy, His Life and Fun" (catalogued D25). Card #32 pictures a cowboy drawing his gun on the other players during a poker game. According to card-collecting folklore (and all we can do is report the story, which sounds very plausible to us) the image on this card was originally intended to be included in the T53 set, but was pulled from production in 1910 because it was deemed too violent and inappropriate for distribution by the manufacturer. Few card collectors are familiar with this card today. We can say with certainty that this is the first we have even become familiar with it. Among old-time advanced nonsports-card collectors and historians, however, it has been well known and held in extremely high esteem. Noted nonsports-card historian Chris Benjamin (former editor of Non-Sport Update and author of the classic reference work Sport Americana Price Guide to the Non-Sports Cards) has ranked this card as number three on his list of the ten rarest nonsports cards.

------------------------------

www.AlteredCards.com - in-depth education on advanced card doctoring techniques & detection with detailed examples

 
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Claude
(Login Gamebits)

Re: What are the two rarest non sports cards?

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June 12 2010, 7:48 AM 

I think any blurb from an auction house should be taken with a grain of salt.

 
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(Login Gamebits)

Re: What are the two rarest non sports cards?

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June 12 2010, 8:01 AM 

The following from the NSB

Ganong - Canada ACC# V155 produce a set using the same picture as Hassan T53 "An Exciting Game" is included
Weber Baking Co. - U.S.A. ACC# D25 produce the set as well "An Exciting Game" is also included
Hamilton Chewing Gum - Canada Acc# V290 Also produce the set and "An Exciting Game" is also included

So out of 4 identical sets only Hassan didn't produce the card "An Exciting Game".

I think the rarity of this card as more to do with the fact that they were produced by Canadian Companies and a bakery which are less collected so not aggressively pursued

 
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Eric B
(Login egbeachley)

Re: What are the two rarest non sports cards?

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June 12 2010, 8:56 AM 

Claude is right on this one. When I was collecting the T53 set I considered picking up this card. But other T53 collectors would invariably bid it up to $100 or so and I didn't want to pay that much for a Bread card which technically didn't belong to the set I was collecting.


 
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Anonymous
(Login boxingcardman)

Re: What are the two rarest non sports cards?

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June 12 2010, 12:41 PM 

The 1926 Exhibit theatrical series is extremely rare. I have seen only the following, and only one of each:

--The Marks [sic] Brothers
--Fanny Brice
--Eddie Cantor
--Willie Howard

[linked image]

Presumably there are 12 or 28 more (half sheet or full sheet, respectively)

My experience has been that 1926 Exhibits are generally the most difficult to find across their issues. I think even the baseball cards are tougher than the 1923-24 issue that gets more attention--I know I've found it easier to locate the 1923-24s. And the 1926 boxing set by far has the largest # of confirmed cards on my want list. The 1926 theatrical set (I call it that because the backs of the cards talk about the performers' stage careers) must have had very limited distribution. All of the ones I've seen have come from large aggregations of cards new to the hobby from the eastern part of the country. My guess is that because the subjects were speaking actors and actresses and set was issued the year bfore The Jazz Singer ushered in the talkies, the set was a small run and not very well distributed.

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

 
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Richard L.
(Login nsaddict)

my 2 cents

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June 12 2010, 1:45 PM 

This has been quite an interesting thread. I don't think any collector could accurately list the 2 "rarest" cards. If a card is the only known but is obscure and has no demand, to me that card doesn't carry much weight. Perhaps a more fitting title for the thread would be the 2 most desirable non-sport cards. My 2 picks (but biased towards the 30s)is R72 Strongman and feel certain it was produced as the prizes mentioned on the back every R72 for sending in all 25 cards is a choice of a baseball mitt,wrist watch or roller skates. For the 30s these were decent prizes but in no way would put Schutter-Johnson out of business for giving away a handful. My feeling is they ended up in the trash after time and one still may surface in the future. My other choice is R37 Dillinger, when I did research for the R37 Wrapper article, I could only find 4 confirmed titles and only one of each tracing the ownership back. Did get an email from a collector (with a scan) of Hamilton. This has been my first encounter of a R37 dup and since a partial Dillinger can be seen on this card, I do think it was produced. As for "an exciting game" card, REA is mistaken on the rarity, this card would only be rare with a Hassan back. I was outbid on one (V290) about 8/9 months ago on ebay which was listed in the correct category and finished around 60.00 and if I recall correctly the card in REA hammered around 350.
"One of the great rarities in all of nonsport card collecting" as REA puts it would have certainly fetched more than that amount for "ranked this card as number three on his list of the ten rarest nonsports cards" (according to Chris Benjanim). This can easily be cleared up by contacting Chris. I know a board member that purchased one a month or two prior to the 60,00 card and he paid under 100 for his. To give you a similar scenario, take the Topps Crockett 20a Ambush card. The Ambush title on the reverse is scarce but the "Look out Georgie" back is a common card but always sells for much more because of the piggyback effect as a result of it's scarcer variation. Basically the same thing going on here with the T53/V290 cards.

 
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(Login forbesrs)

RE: T53 - An Exciting Game; T8; etc.

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June 12 2010, 3:01 PM 

The T53 "An Exciting Game" cannot be considered rare because it doesn't exist as far as anyone ever in the hobby has ever reported. The reason for the withdrawal of the card sounds valid to me - probably always be just folklore as I don't know where you'd ever find proof one way or another why there were only 49 in that set (and I've looked....).

As far as the other candy sets that use the same artwork and include the Exciting Game in them - I don't think any of them could be considered "rare" at all. That particular card carries a premium compared to any other cards in those sets due to the "folklore" surrounding it, but they're not impossible to find, which is where I start when I define something as "rare".

T8 National Types - Yes, this was more than likely an advertising piece rather than a premium that was obtained in exchange for coupons. I could make similar arguments for several other T-series sets that really shouldn't be in that category: T101 probably should be an N-series, T133, T134 are cigar packages with designs & don't see how they really count, T139 is I believe an advertising card. On the other hand, N553 Interesting Novelties really ought to be a T-series. Guess you can go complain to Jefferson Burdick about his numbering system or just live with the minor errors and discrepancies.

So - here's a question - if it's not really a "card" (but rather an advertising piece or postcard) but is listed as a card in the American Card Catalog, can it really be considered as one of the rarest cards??

 
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(Login boxingcardman)

Re: What are the two rarest non sports cards?

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June 12 2010, 5:27 PM 

E282 Oh Boy Gum should be an "R" card.

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

 
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Ted
(Login hfire)

Regarding Bob's question,

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June 13 2010, 7:52 AM 

In order to answer whether it is a card or an advertising piece, you have to determine which is which, because according to your book all could be considered advertising pieces, because your description of the card's distributor (Dukes, A&G,etc.) is that they are advertisements for the company. Back in moonshine days everybody had a card with their name & company on it. Regarding the Canadian "Shoot em" card, no way that is rare. There are plenty around.

TM

 
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(Login uglystickers)

val

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June 13 2010, 12:47 PM 

i used to go over vals house to buy cards and other various items-yes he could be rough around the edges-was an old timer that had seen it all-was always fair and how bad could he have been to invite me into his house--i havent seen or herd anything about val in the past 4-5 years-i have also slowed down alot myself for mainly economic reasons-i still love the hobby as much as i did 20 years ago-take care all-rich

 
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Chuck Ross
(Login ChuckRoss)

Re: What are the two rarest non sports cards?

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June 14 2010, 6:52 AM 

Hey Rich, glad to hear you had good experiences with Val (long-time dealer Val DeCarlo, I just realized that I left his last name out of my original message). I had a lot of good deals with him as well and didn't take his tirade too seriously as I realized I was not the only one that got that treatment. One thing I do remember is that he had at that time the most extensive collective of R23 Big Little Book series cards that I was aware of, something like 2/3 of that impossibly hard 224-card set. I hope that Val is doing well, perhaps if Les Davis is reading this he can update us.

 
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(Premier Login autograf)
Forum Owner

Great thread.........

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June 14 2010, 8:34 AM 

One of the better lately.........as good as the ACC is, there are obvious omissions and errors and what we might now understand as misclassifications........

In the E realm, I listed on the 'anybody got 'em' thread some of the real scarcities of the E cards. Like Bob said, within each class of cards, there are real rarities--either whole sets that very few cards have been seen or cards within sets that are individually very scarce.

I think Henry's point about N cards photo cards of actresses in the beyond-N500 realm, some of those are incredibly scarce and you can't really search for them. I've picked up 3-4 that I have that I've never seen again but didn't pay much for them because there's just not the demand for them. I know I've never seen any of the T cards Bob mentions and I'm sure Todd Riley could illuminate us on a lot of D & F cards that are cataloged but never seen.

Even now, with around 50 years since the last ACC update and with all the research tools at our disposal and an ongoing multi0-million item auction daily, we can't find some of these things. I find that intriguing. I always thought that Burdick had all the cards he'd checklisted, but Bob Forbes straightened me out on that point. There are some ACC classifications that he has NONE of. Interestingly some of those really aren't that scarce. Then there are some missing that are incredibly scarce. Then there are some he has quite a few of that are incredibly scarce today. I think it goes to the haphazard way that he had to gain information in the 1930's,1940's,1950's. Mimeographs, phone calls, hand written checklists. All only as good as the person compiling the info. It is an incredible work in and of itself--even with the errors it has.


 
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Rand
(Login Thrill-of-the-Hunt)

val decarlo

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June 14 2010, 11:01 AM 

i remember about 4-5 years ago i came across him when i was gathering 33 goudey indians. he was living in new york at the time and would just send me an envelope full of cards, i could keep what i wanted and send the rest back with a check for my purchase. at the time i knew nothing about non sports (not that it has changed much) but liked the indian cards. he told me he was in the process of moving, i think he mentioned new orleans but not 100% sure. anyhow. it was nice to recieve cards for my review before the hassle of determining condition.


 
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(Login DanCalandriello)

Val from the internet

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June 14 2010, 12:41 PM 


 
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(Login LesWrap1)

Re: What are the two rarest non sports cards?

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June 15 2010, 1:43 PM 

...what a character!(that's all I will say at present) No, I haven't heard from Val in about 10 years.

 
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(Login non-sport.com)

Re: What are the two rarest non sports cards?

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June 15 2010, 2:28 PM 

About a year before Hugh Jones passed away, he told me he bought a bunch of stuff from Val. Not sure if it was just his doubles or entire collection or what. That is the last I have heard about him.

 
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Claude
(Login Gamebits)

Re: What are the two rarest non sports cards?

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June 15 2010, 3:01 PM 

It seems the discussion went from the 2 rarest cards to the rarest dealer happy.gif

 
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Anonymous
(Login hfire)

Re: A Rare Question

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June 15 2010, 3:30 PM 



    
This message has been edited by hfire on Jun 15, 2010 7:27 PM


 
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