I was recently checking items on ebay when I stumbled across a seller that once screwed me back in 2004. I had won and paid (with a money order)for a pair of Dare Devil cards. I contacted him via ebay to see if he would do the right thing and send my money back 6 years after the fact. He replied and asked why did I wait so long, fair enough. After not receiving the cards for 2 weeks (remember back in 2004)I called him and said he would look into it. Another week goes by without hearing anything so I call again...you guessed it ,the number has been disconnected and no longer a registered user...how nice. He had several user ID's at the time and they do NOT show up now for ID history. He now has good feedback, I've sent a few more messages but won't reply. This is where things get a little sticky, one card is in the Huggins&Scott action(lot 359) that ends tomorrow night. The same cert number that the card was listed in 2004. I feel I still legally own the card but not sure what I can do. Would be curious how the consignor came to acquire the card. The dirtball seller is Frank Prisco of Philadelphia. He also screwed Mark Finn back then too, only sending a portion of the cards he won. The total for the 2 R39 cards was only 118.00 but he refuses to make things right. Today's value would be more than double what I had paid.
edited to add: if someone has helpful info but would prefer to email directly please do...thanks
edited to add: Leon, she can't even spell your last name correctly?
This message has been edited by nsaddict on Aug 25, 2011 8:34 PM This message has been edited by nsaddict on Mar 29, 2011 6:43 PM
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Richard, you clearly have a valid claim here and this guy still owes you. That much is clear. I don't think there is any statute of limitations on fraud. You have a contract, you paid, he needs to deliver.
But realistically speaking, this looks like one of those things where you'll just have to decide how much all the angst would be worth. Probably your best case is the guy eventually may refund your money paid in 2004 for the non-received card. No huge victory and probably not worth getting your knickers too twisted over.
Worth a shot? No question. But don't bank on a hugely happy ending. As city dwellers know, it's very tough to kill cockroaches.
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And apparently in some cases, the SAME quality cards!
Not sure how I would handle a situation like this, or if there is even any way possible TO handle it and remain a gentleman (I can think of plenty of unscrupulous things to do, but won't expound on those). Unless you know someone on the inside at H&S, you probably won't ever know who their consignor is, or even if it's this same guy. I really don't think there is any way, at this point, to MAKE him do the right thing, and it sounds like he's already shed any personal honor he may have had long ago, meaning that FORCED restitution would be the only way he would ever give you your money back. Even if you were to go to court and get a judgement against him, there is probably no way to make him or H&S turn over the actual card (I believe most auction houses actually have a clause in their consignment agreements precluding the acceptance of any material tied to a judgement).
That said, I'd still be interested to hear others' thoughts on the matter. As a seller, the obvious "right" thing to do would have been to refund your money 6 years ago. At this point, I'm just impressed that you were able to spot the card in the H&S auction and know that it's the same one you bought!
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well, join the club. sending money orders IS the worst thing to do, even paypal back then sucked, but at least there was a small chance of paypal refunding you.
i guess the only thing you "own" was the money order you bought, because those cards may have changed hands 12 times since 2004. you are a great guy, and i am so sorry you got screwed.
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It might be worth a few minutes to simply state the facts to Both Ebay and Huggins and scott. I wouldn't expect either to do much about it, but putting the info out there is a start. If the seller from 6 years ago is the consigner it might get pulled and returned, at the minimum causing a bit of nuisance.
Steve B
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Richard, the Statute of Limitations on Mail Fraud (Title 18 United States Code 1341) is 5 years. Perhaps if you could reach someone at H&S Legal and fax over your eBay sale with an affidavidt outlining the sequence of events...and if H&S Legal believed they may be in possesion of a stolen item, or an item that was obtained by false or fraudulent means...you might be able to pursade them to pull the questionable item until they conducted their own internal investigation. They (H&S) may be under no legal obligation to pull the item, but H&S may opine they are under a moral obligation (good busines practice). No legit company would knowingly sell a stolen item....it's up to you to prove your case...and with luck, get someone to listen.
I think you have my busines card...call my direct line if you have any questions....
Let me know what happens....but, don't give up...allen
This message has been edited by allenmc on Mar 29, 2011 9:31 PM
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Maybe you can't prosecute him based on the statue of limitations,but you still hold title to the card. Don't ask for a refund now if the card is worth more.
This message has been edited by egbeachley on Mar 29, 2011 9:48 PM This message has been edited by egbeachley on Mar 29, 2011 9:47 PM This message has been edited by egbeachley on Mar 29, 2011 9:46 PM
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First of all, contacting eBay will get you nowhere. You're certainly welcome to try, but I guarantee the most you will get is a generic e-mail telling you that they appreciate you letting them know about the situation, but cannot share any information regarding any action they might take. Which is their way of saying, "okay, you've got it off your chest, now go away." And it being a 6-year-old situation that you're describing to them, you would be lucky to get that much of a response.
Anything you might get H&S to do is going to be complicated by the fact that the card is being offered as part of a set (something I didn't note until just now), and the auction ends tomorrow night so that now there are others who have made legal bids based on the inclusion of that card in the set. Even so, unless the guy who ripped you off is the actual consignor to H&S, I don't see how they would be obligated to pull the lot. From their point of view (and this is assuming that Mr. Prisco is not the consignor), they have no way of knowing whether or not you actually received the card and then re-sold it later. (Mind you, I'm not saying that is what happened. Just trying to put some perspective on it). If they did pull the listing based on your say-so, what's to stop anyone who ever owned any graded card pictured in their auctions from raising a stink? Although PSA cards each have a unique identifying number so that you know it's the same card you were buying, it's not like with a car title where every single time the thing changes hands it's recorded in an official record somewhere. It's POSSIBLE that could happen if each owner registered it with PSA, but not a legal requirement. It would be difficult to PROVE a chain of custody, and even if you could, he took your money from you, not the card. Technically, you never had possession of it.
Which brings to mind another possiblity that I hadn't thought of: are you 100% certain that he actually had the card in the first place? If not, it certainly wouldn't be the first time someone sold something on eBay using a picture they had snagged from another source. If he never held title to the card himself, then you wouldn't either. That's not to say that selling you something he never owned to begin with is not fraud, but just because you have a bill of sale for the Brooklyn Bridge doesn't mean you own it.
And again, let me re-iterate that I'm not trying to be hurtful in anything I'm saying here. Just trying to give some perspective on an unfortunate situation.
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Hey Rich, Another well documented sad tale of deception,fraud,slippery and snake like behavior.
Perhaps we (net 54) should have a link,section,list of questionable folk. (a la black list)where the people on the inside loop (here) are able to take a look prior to being a victim.
Of course, each name on the list would have to be WELL documented from start to end result. Each person should be given the chance for redemption by responding or making something right. Each getting an email with a link to the post ABOUT THEM!
Holding folks accountable is a good thing,witch hunts are not. So it would be a fine line of who makes the list and those that don't. Card collecting (like politics)makes strange bedfellows as we have seen on this board over the years. Example: Everyone is up in arms, upset,encouraging the victim and promising never to do business with said person or persons. But if these "crooks" have cards someone needs...well...you know how that ends.(sigh)
Happily, Most people in the Non Sport hobby are above board and things like this don't surface everyday. Can't say the same for the Sports Card Folk.
Like Lance, there is more than 1 way to get flesh...but the cost to the soul are not worth it.
Another matter: Money Orders. I recomend U.S. POSTAL money orders which offer max. protection and are backed up by feds (as Henry knows). ALL other money orders are loaded with fine print and if you ever have to try to get your money back in most cases you will find:
1. You must have a photocopy of the money order BEFORE you send it. (who does that?!)
2. You must submit this and a fee $$$ for the company to provide information on IF it was cashed.
2 A. You must pay an additional fee $$$ for them to tell you WHO cashed it and WHEN
2 B. You are limited to the amount that will be refunded IF they find in your favor. (most times not)
3. You have a very limited time frame to file CLAIM, even if you have all of the above and are willing to shell out as much as 15.00 to begin and additional 35.00 to get more info etc.
BOTTOM LINE: All Money Orders are not created alike.
Anything other than U.S. Postal Money orders is just like sending cash and hoping.
Your level of exposure is so great as to be taken avantage of by BOTH the Money Order company AND the seller.
Just read the fine print on Western Union,Moneygram,Walmart etc.
Baffling why ANYONE would ever use those.
Back to you:
Sorry Dude, looks like you are taking one for the team on this one. Of course I am now aware of the name FRANK PRISCO and likely not to forget it.
"Showin the love since 1962"
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