Well I got tbhe latest Wrapper today. Another excellent issue.

Eagerly anticipating the full run I won at REA.

I was wondering if there would be interest in a Gallery section for the Wrapper? After I get them I would be willing to scan every page of every issue and send them to Dan (If he is willing to do it). I hope this would be okay with Les Davis.

So any interest out there?

Not okay with Les Davis...copyright laws.

Just a thought - sorry Les.

Jerry, what are you trying to do to poor Les? We finally get some good news about his health in the latest issue and you post this thread. Holy crap, I'll bet Les has to go in for more heart tests in a day or so. - just kidding, but I know Les needs to occasionally sell an old article or two to help pay a few bills.
This reminds me of a certain board member wanting to start a 'Wrapper' club on line about ten years ago.

I think an on-line Wrapper Club is a great idea. To join, all one has to do is get a subscription. Then we can talk about the stuff we read in the Wrapper on-line, like say, here. Wait a click... that's what we're doing. (I guess we could use more dues paying members, har-har-har!)

jerry, if you have time to scan every page of the wrapper then it may be time to get another hobby. life is to short to sit and scan a magazine.

...20,000 pages! Gimme a break!

Everyone - I'm retired with plenty of time on my hands. I have scanning on an assembly line. Approx. 10 secs. per scan, so 360 scans per hour. Divide that by 10,000 scans means approx. 28 hrs. of scanning time. Even double the scanning time & it is still doable. So maybe I spend 50 to 60 hours on the project,

I have currently over 5,000 scans posted on my PSA Registry sets plus I have posted & emailed hundreds of scans to Dan which he has posted in the Gallery.

Not that hard/impossible to do.

Say what you will about "wasting time" scanning all those Wrapper pages, but I've scanned every single one of them myself... with my eyes! (Maybe that's why my vision is getting blurry, ya think?) My only defense is the old adage, "Time you enjoy wasting isn't wasted time."

Forgive me if this has been raised before, but Les, if Jerry is truly willing to scan the entire run of The Wrapper, why not let him do it and then sell a DVD with the complete run in PDF for, I don't know, $99? The DVD creation and shipping could be 100% handled by an outfit like CafePress, and you and the whole non-sport community would benefit. After all, it's not like you see an additional dime when complete runs of paper back issues sell for $1,000+!

By The way _ I like to simplify numbers when I can. I figured 250 isuues with 40 pages each. That is how I came up with 10,000 scans. Probably pretty close but if there are more then oh well, some extra hours there. I am positive that the entire project will take less than 100 hours of effort.

Edited to add - Wrapper No. 259 has 78 pages counting Front and Back cover. So do the math (And figuring each issue of the Wrapper has the same number of pages) we have a theoretical maximum of 20,202 scans. Say you can do 100 scans per hour (Easy to do) you are at approx. 200+ hours of time needed. Increase that to a max. of 300 hours of effort due to ineffieciencys. Then spend 10 hours per week and in approx. 8 months the project would be done.

I am 100% sure I could do the entire thing in less than 6 months (Spending 10 hours per week). All I have to do to free up the time is spend about 1.5 hours per day not watching TV.

Les - I am not planning on doing this. Just crunching nos. about how it is feasible to do so.

Geoff, No offense my brother but I think you have a lack of understanding on this matter.

Does not matter if Les has 10,000 auctions going for 1200.00 under his belt or he does not need the money and just won 54,000,000 powerball.
Should Bill Gates giveaway Windows Versions and software for free?

Its his (Mr.Davis) blood,sweat and tears (which would be a great name for a rock group)(smirk)and he owns it.

2 words: COPYRIGHT LAWS

Nuff Said

"tellin it like it is since 1967"

I did not at all mean that Les should give away the content of the back issues for free. Quite the contrary: I suggest that if Jerry were willing to donate the labor to scan all the back issues, Les could offer a DVD - for sale - at a price of his choosing, with minimal effort to him and no upfront costs. This would be purely incremental income - making a profit from intellectual property that is currently fallow. My point about the sale of paper back issues is that no matter what the price realized, Les doesn't see any additional profit from it, whereas he certainly could by selling digital copies of the archives.

Les - I have the highest respect for you with great admiration for the superlative periodical you have produced. I will honor your intellectual property rights so I have to say that I will not send out scans of Wrapper issues/articles to anyone who has requested even if I have previously agreed to do so. The only way I will do it is if you get specific permission (From Les Davis) to do so.

Guys,
This was all covered in a previous string that I inadvertently touched off last fall when a similar run of The Wrapper back-issues was sold through another auction house.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/526604/message/1283108041/%26quot%3BThe+Wrapper%26quot%3B+back+issues...-

Bottom line: Les doesn't want any compilations of the back-issues produced, whether he does the work or someone volunteers for it. It's his baby, and his prerogative. I think plenty of arguments for and against the various possible compilations were pretty well hashed out the last time around, and it sounds like Les is sticking to his guns this time, so let's not add to his stress levels.

As Les said the last time around, "My daughter will be open to suggestions after I'm cremated, but that may, hopefully, be a few years down the road."

Geoff: I too see both sides my friend but Ownership trumps the other.
I would love to have a DVD or some such but these would just be bootlegged,pirated and pretty much dilute what 1 man has tirelessly worked for , for years! Not Cool.

As an Artist and Idea Man, I have seen my ART and my IDEAS ripped off by others WITHOUT permission. Not pretty and a terrible feeling especially when someone else profits off your hard work with no credit or compensation. Snakes!

Can a man make a dollar?


"tellin it like it is since 1964"

I just went back re-read that thread, I remembered most of it. If anything.. I could see a day where (like newspapers) an online version will/could be needed or enjoyed.

Personally, I also could see it would be a great idea if EXXON/MOBIL stations gave free refills.I would enjoy that too. Easy for me to say since I don't own them,Don't even hold their stock.

As the old saying goes: "Its very easy to spend somebody else's money"

Or as the bible puts it: "...stolen water is sweet.."

We should all be as concerned to a "hobby legends" personal health vs. Ideas on what he should do with the Wrapper..(Sigh)

VIVA LA WRAPPER!

"sadly tellin it like it is since 1966"

Charley: I sincerely doubt any among us would pirate Les' work - it's not like we're talking about a Radiohead album here, this is a small community of - in my experience, and I have at one point or another dealt with almost everyone here - wonderfully honest and upright gentlemen. Of course Les has control of his work, and it should be no other way. The fact remains, no DVD or back issue reprinting, no additional profit from that material. I stand by any decision Les makes or has made about the subject, of course.

Hey Geoff, Not picking at you bro...we just see this differently I think.

"I sincerely doubt any among us would pirate Les' work"
ME: Really?, so can I get that in writing? Are you bonded? Can you give me your mothers maiden name? Here on the board? On the INTERNET!?

" it's not like we're talking about a Radiohead album here,"
ME: So, if it were music it would be of more importance? More interest equals better treatment under the law?
Not according to my attorneys.

"this is a small community of - in my experience, and I have at one point or another dealt with almost everyone here -"
ME: No you have'nt. Have you dealt with all who lurk here? Visit here? Post anon here? You can bet the farm and you will loose. Put it in the book!

".. wonderfully honest and upright gentlemen."
ME: I wholeheartedly agree with all I have dealt with or talked to...no argument about that.

"Of course Les has control of his work,"
ME: Of course!

"and it should be no other way."
ME: I totally agree dude!

"The fact remains, no DVD or back issue reprinting, no additional profit from that material."
ME: True, but that's on the owner, why is it your concern? If a boy wants to cut your neighbors yard for free..who are you to go insist he profit?

"I stand by any decision Les makes or has made about the subject, of course."
ME: We Agree!

Geoff, you are a straight arrow,great non sporter and contributor here. We agree on some points. But I just don't get this whole ".. He(les) can do what he wants.." vibe coupled with "..this is what he (les) should do.." comments in these 2 threads.
HUH? WTF? Very confusing to me.

We are blessed folks...anything else is just icing on non sport cake.

"Tellin it like is since 1967"

Charley - at the risk of making too much of this...

- You are correct that I can't make assurances beyond my own behavior, and certainly, once things are digital, they have a tendency to circulate.

- With the Radiohead example I only meant "something of broad popular interest," not to imply that music had a greater claim to protection under copyright law or something like that. A theoretical DVD of Wrapper back issues would be appealing to, I don't know, five hundred people? Almost all of whom would either know Les personally or by reputation. Maybe that relationship wouldn't stop the most hardened pirate, but you'd have to be pretty cold to look someone in the eye, so to speak, and steal from them.

- You say: "Geoff, you are a straight arrow,great non sporter and contributor here. We agree on some points. But I just don't get this whole ".. He(les) can do what he wants.." vibe coupled with "..this is what he (les) should do.." comments in these 2 threads.
HUH? WTF? Very confusing to me." I certainly don't mean to insinuate that Les should or must do anything with his property, and I apologize if that's how my comments came off. I merely wanted to point out a possible opportunity given a) Jerry's apparent willingness to scan and b) an audience that would be willing to pay for an archive of back issues. That's it. I think the back and forth on this just reflects how GREAT The Wrapper is and how much Les' work is valued.

Hey Geoff,

Charley - at the risk of making too much of this...
ME: I hear you bro!

- You are correct that I can't make assurances beyond my own behavior, and certainly, once things are digital, they have a tendency to circulate.
ME: Agreed

- With the Radiohead example I only meant "something of broad popular interest," not to imply that music had a greater claim to protection under copyright law or something like that. A theoretical DVD of Wrapper back issues would be appealing to, I don't know, five hundred people?
ME: I get you. I think your estimate of folk interested in Non Sports is wayyy low. There are only 500? 900? Geoff, I think just by looking at the major auction houses and by internet sites,and auction listings...it is MUCH greater than hundreds..I think we are into 10,000 easily. Don't forget the Sports folk who invaded our NON Sport world and now sell equal amounts of each.

Almost all of whom would either know Les personally or by reputation. Maybe that relationship wouldn't stop the most hardened pirate, but you'd have to be pretty cold to look someone in the eye, so to speak, and steal from them.
ME: No, no, there is NO honor amoung thieves. And if there is a buck to be made in non sports Forget friendships and loyalty with crooked folks. I'm glad you are not as jaded as moi. Thats a good thing.(grin)

I certainly don't mean to insinuate that Les should or must do anything with his property, and I apologize if that's how my comments came off.
ME: No apology needed bud. Everything is cool. You are entitled to your opinion last time I checked the bill of rights. (smile)

I merely wanted to point out a possible opportunity given a) Jerry's apparent willingness to scan and b) an audience that would be willing to pay for an archive of back issues. That's it.
ME: I feel you (as the kids say)

I think the back and forth on this just reflects how GREAT The Wrapper is and how much Les' work is valued.
ME: INDEED!

Thanks for the dialogue instead of just another "hit and run" posting.
Much appreciated.

Take care


"Showin the love since 1968"

This is a tough topic because we all love the Wrapper and admire the work Les has done over the years, and we all want the best for him.

My response in the thread referenced above included my magazine experience and the profit to be made from back issue CD-Roms. Another thing to consider is that if Les does put out a reasonably priced digital product, there would be much less reason for anyone to pirate the goods. I don't know if anyone is selling reproduced copies of the Wrapper, but I'd bet many on this board have xeroxed copies for collector buddies as a favor. This is copyright infringement even if it is innocent. If the needy could buy from Les, he would benefit from his own work. Take the money and put it in a college fund for the grandkids. It really is like free money after the first modest investment. I'd put 50 issues on a CD and sell it for $35.

Uh-Oh I've started to rant. -Jack

You never know Jack, he may change his mind. Five years ago, he was against all computers and wanted The Wrapper designed only by his typewriter. Now, the entire mag is submitted in digital format, with Les using his typewriter as a door stop. But I would point out two things: 1. He does offer cheap copies of any article for people who contact him, and 2. We should never badger or gripe if someone isn't willing to sell us something they own at a price we want. I don't want people criticizing me for not selling my stuff at their prices, whatever it is. If they don't like what I offer at the price I offer, let them produce it themselves from scratch and let the find out the hard way how much work it is for how little money. Sure, I want to share my stuff, but when you give it away too cheap, you can no longer afford to spend the time to make it in the first place. I'm not saying you or anyone else is badgering him, but I am saying we should focus more on what we appreciate about the Wrapper rather than what we want changed about it. He gets very little help, and not much feedback accept the critical kind. That's human nature, as we rarely comment when we're content, and more often vocalize our unfulfilled wants.

Here in Tallahassee, we have a $3.50 cinema house I love to go to get out and see the films the way they were intended. Then I got Netflicks and cut back on it, saving myself a few more dollars. The problem is, I wasn't the only one doing this... attendance was down so they just closed it last week. Now I'm really missing the place and wishing I supported it more when it was still around. I hope that never happens with The Wrapper.

To me, the Wrapper is the last bastion of old school non-sports card collecting. Old school collectors, old school sellers, old school cards, old school transactions, old school printing, old school publishing, even old school mailing and distribution.

It's almost like a tangible tether to collecting NS cards back in 1980 (which I love), and given the consistency and length of time that Les has been publishing, you don't do something like this unless it's a labor of love. So basically, the Wrapper is Les' so he can do what he wants.

That said, Les, if I were you (and was considering your family as well), I would think long and hard about what Jerry is offering. If Jerry is willing to scan your entire run, you can enter into a work-for-hire license agreement with him to do so that ensures you retain all rights, ownership, and control over the proceeds (and it saves you spending God knows how much if you have to pay someone else to do this).

At that point, at minimum, you will have protected your run from damage (fire, weather, etc.) and effectively immortalized it on one simple electronic file. Your family doesn't have to worry about preserving it (or ensuring its completion) after you are gone, and you have the option to do whatever you want with it while you're still here.

Now, if you do decide to make the archive available commercially, I can think of a lot of ways that you would stand to open new revenue streams while making old issues of the Wrapper available to many more collectors. My best advice would be to open a subscription-based site where you can sell old articles on an ala-carte basis or you can open your entire archive for an annual fee ($99 is a great suggestion -- I myself would totally sign up for that).

BTW, if you do pass this up, then you have forever forfeited your right to complain about postage.

Kurt - I hope my suggestions/information for Les are not considered badgering. I, as much as anyone, respect his option to do whatever he wants with his intellectual property.

Les was publishing the Wrapper when I started my magazine in 1986 (It was an inspiration for our format). I've looked through those early issues of the Wrapper many times and he has stayed true to his original formula over these many years. I published The "E" Ticket for 24 years and have been retired for a year. Guess what? Les is still cranking those issue out. It's incredible what he has accomplished. I was told many times that our magazine was old fashioned and should go electronic with internet subscriptions and many other suggestions I didn't try to understand. Bottom line, we liked to publish something you could hold in your hand ... a "keeper" if you will.

I had the right to reject suggestions from others and Les certainly has that same right. I agree with Aaron that the Wrapper a great connection with old fashioned collecting. This forum is just a great place to beat a subject like this to death.

-Jack

No Jack, I wasn't saying anyone was badgering him, or at least, they certainly weren't intending on doing so. But none one should feel offended if he ignores the suggestion, either because he's overwhelmed, doesn't think it will work, doesn't want to change what ain't broke, or whatever reason. I'm just saying that the number of times he's asked shouldn't make someone frustrated that the answer is still "no". It was "no" the first time, so getting "no" 100 more times shouldn't be any surprise. Just asking again and again doesn't mean he should feel compelled to change his mind anymore than the kids in the back seat keep asking for the driver to pull over and buy them Cokes. So don't anyone get mad at him if he continues to refuse. He's the one doing the hard part (the driving).

Just playing the devil's advocate though, once it's offered on a CD as PDF's or whatever, it's very easy to make copies and pass them around or resell them on eBay. I know none of us would do that, but how does anyone control everyone else?

For the record, I don't care either way. So I support whatever the decision, which I guess at the time, is still "no".

Ok, I'll bite. I just got this in my email box:

"From AnonymousFeedback.net:"
This is the service employed by scared little boys who really want to be girls:

"As far as "The Wrapper", I'll make a _uckin zerox copy of every issue & give to who I please FREE !!!

From AnonymousFeedback.net: This is a one way, anonymous message. You are not able to respond to the sender and we are not able to tell you who sent you this message.
(UH....According to FCC and Internet authorities, I have every right and cause to hire attorneys serving papers forcing this firm "give you up" since this was unsolicited.) (1st mistake Jackass!)

(BTW I have IT friends who can track this back you amateur, if we did not have a real life)you better hope I never get really bored and they have a few free hours(not to mention you gave away your age by using the term "Xerox"...we on the board have a pretty good idea.
(2nd & 3rd mistake Jackass!)

Wow!...Even hiding behind your computer screen is not safe enough for you. Poor,poor pathetic creature.
I'll bet any amount from rocky mount, you don't even have mirrors in your house...you are such a scared little rat. I can hear you running away as soon as you sent this. Folks like you deserve our pity. Really.
I have a Backbone on order for you if you ever decide to join us and tell it like it is. Free country little girl..even for you. You can express your opinions and throw your tantrums in this forum and in public, no law against it. I'm puzzled why you even bothered to send this to me. Who cares? Do what you wanna do. You even cleaned up your bad little cuss word? Its ok honey...nobody's going to hurt you, daddy is here.

BTW THANK YOU!

You have just confirmed my point about folks who will do anything underhanded once LES offered up a dvd or cd.

CONFIRMATION Wrapper folks...Take note.

Thanks for the Chuckle and for confirming what we already knew.

"tellin it like it is since 1967"




(UPDATE 6-12-11!: I Know you!) (Even though I am now the Brietbart of NET54 I refuse to engage) ( I choose to forgive you )

"showin the love since 1960"

Edited to show love.