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did we ever resolve the "gloved hands" allen and ginter "cards"?

October 3 2011 at 12:05 AM
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  (Login 1880nonsports)

crs - here's a link with a part of a banner showing partial examples. Anyone?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-Original-1880-s-Allen-Ginter-Poster-size-12-5-8-x-16-5-8-/260865330477?pt=Art_Posters&hash=item3cbcc90d2d

ok - from a search I found:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/526604/message/1233607296/SGC+and+Gloved+Hand+Girls

pix of the proof cards still in thread (and in our gallery) but the other cards like Terry K. wanted to know about are gone. Junior if you see this (or anyone else that has one of these thinner with border "cards") - could we get a pic?


    
This message has been edited by 1880nonsports on Oct 3, 2011 12:15 AM


 
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AuthorReply

(Login DanCalandriello)

No, never received any information--but did a "tribute" page

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October 3 2011, 4:45 AM 

The below link never made it to the net54 Gallery, as info was lacking.

Great subject, Henry.

http://www1.coe.neu.edu/~dan/gloves/go.html



.

 
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(Login DanCalandriello)

Opera gloved actresses ?

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October 3 2011, 4:59 AM 

For those who love researching this kind of information,
you might check
OPERA GLOVES 1880s or there-abouts
or
OPERA GLOVED ACTRESSES


You'd expect that after all these years,
a FULL poster/banner would have surfaced,
giving the gloved hands a title.


Thanks once again, Mr Moses.
A heck of a post !!

.

 
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(Login DanCalandriello)

for those that love a mystery

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October 3 2011, 5:24 AM 

Can matching opera actresses can be found ?

http://www1.coe.neu.edu/~dan/z-ns-N265/go.html
.
.
.

 
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(Login TheNewtonian)

Re: did we ever resolve the "gloved hands" allen and ginter "cards"?

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October 3 2011, 5:55 AM 

[linked image]

 
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(Login DanCalandriello)

Dating it

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October 3 2011, 6:40 AM 

I wonder if Henry Moses can date it,
given the information on the poster/banner ?

"Allen Ginter - Branch of the ATC"


.

 
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(Login TheNewtonian)

Re: did we ever resolve the "gloved hands" allen and ginter "cards"?

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October 3 2011, 7:18 AM 

I'm bombarding poor Dan with mails ...specualtion and more speculation on my part .

C'mon Henry we need your good Ginter eye .

 
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(Login TheNewtonian)

Re: did we ever resolve the "gloved hands" allen and ginter "cards"?

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October 3 2011, 9:14 AM 

apparently the gloved hand contains a card from a Beauties series .
I'm sure the images aren't from the A&G World Beauties so I wonder if they are from one of the many A.T.C Beauties issues from the early 1900/1901 time frame or maybe from an Actress series from around the same time .
There was a Richmond Straight Cut Actress issue in 1902 but Murrays have that issue as maybe ?40?

I'm sure someone will get to the bottom of it .

----
Mark

 
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(Login clarkscardsvt)

A&G glove cards

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October 3 2011, 11:58 AM 

It would be interesting to see if images in the banner have numbers like the cards I have do in the lower left corner. My guess is that the banner is printed on lighter stock than the cards that I have, if they are the same thickness, it may be that the cards were cut from a banner. Mine have no evidence of a border. I have heard of two other sets and did have a odd card a couple of years ago. There is an image in the World Index- vol.II, I beleive and that state that they think it was an un-issued set by Allen & Ginter. Guess the banners got out, but they never issued the cards.

 
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(Login TheNewtonian)

Re: did we ever resolve the "gloved hands" allen and ginter "cards"?

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October 3 2011, 12:45 PM 

not the clearest of banner images .

[linked image]

 
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(Login 1880nonsports)

nice banner!

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October 3 2011, 4:46 PM 

super share. Excellent question Dan! The "branch" thing so far narrows it down to a 24 year period but I can pare that down quite I bit when I can get to the paperwork. That won't do much to resolve the issue unfortunatly. Likely a better scan of the banner elements, a good scan of one of the "cards" (NOT the proof ones) as well as dimensions and stock, and the size of the proofs (are they uniform?) would help. Not unreasonable to me that there's a banner, proofs for a card issue, and cuts from the banner. Less likely that there are also cards or printer's scrap. Another question might be why are the proofs actually cut as cards? Wouldn't the originals either be depicted individually on larger mockups or grouped and rendered on a large sheet? I see Mark says he's found one of the card images found within the gloved hands (which in a quick glance all look individually drawn) in a turn of the century ATC series. There were some tobacco "wars" here and around the world at the turn of the century. It's an interesting thought that perhaps the ATC was thinking of issuing cards in the USA with the ginter brand around the time that the whole BAT/ATC thing at the turn of the century where they wuz fighting over foreign rights. The Ginter company apparently wasn't shy about re-issuing and recycling trade cards, inserts, and other promotional things (nor was the later ATC). I doubt the banner would have preceeded the "issued" card shown in the hand - so post 1901 makes sense. Problem there might be that the "old planter" image is of a slightly earlier style. One might account for this that the lithographer was an older one and/or the image was recycled. What as produced first? I would think the lithographer produced on demand (couldn't really be stock as a card had been issued albeit not with the gloved hand) a card series as representations of CARDS. To herald and advertise the new inducement to buy the brand - a banner is conceived. The images were usually based on the actual cards - most of the time depicting the full set although not always (26 would be quite unusual however). Number of logical reasons for the discrepancy but they all lead me around in a circle at the moment. I'm a bit diffuse here but I wanted to get my first thoughts down so's later I can try and put it all together. Let's get more thoughts!! Everyone should like a puzzle. It's probably more simple than I think......

 
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(Premier Login autograf)
Forum Owner

Great thoughts

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October 3 2011, 10:28 PM 

On the subject......I would favor the POST 1900 theory and Henrys idea of tobacco war era time frame. The banner pictures only 25 cards and all the Ginter sets were 50 card (base) sets.....many of the tobacco war T400+ sets are 25 card sets......

 
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(Login 1880nonsports)

if it is more simple than I think

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October 4 2011, 1:28 AM 

then I would venture that there is a banner and there are no proof cards - only cards cut from a proof banner or an issued one. I hope that isn't the case and the references in the WTI are most often correct. Of course I don't have any of the elements or dimensions in hand...... Still need to research the "branch of...." thing.

 
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(Login 1880nonsports)

roger

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October 4 2011, 1:30 AM 

however this turns out - the cards are REALLY spectacular - especially after a second and third look.

 
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clarkscardsvt
(Login clarkscardsvt)

Glove cards A&G

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October 4 2011, 7:51 PM 

I think Henry is most likely correct in that these may have been cut from either and album or a proof sheet. While mine are cut very consistently, two have razor marks (#13 & #22). I think if the white area within the border were measured l & w(mm) it would give us a data point. I could also have the thickness measured at work. Mine are in a safe deposit box, but I would take them out to measure them. They are pretty clean and edges are very straight; which works against cutting them out of a banner, but it is not impossible. The odd card I had was poorly cut. Cutting a sheet of 25 seems more likely with a straight edge. Since I know of cards from four sets and now the image of one banner; why would 4 out of the five banners be cut into cards? The banner would be more valuable than the cards.

The logic behind having them issued in the tobacco war period since 25 are in the set also seems sound.

When I purchased this set, it was part of a group of cards including full sets of Presidential Possiblities and N15 Allen & Ginter Generals. Who ever had them, took good care of them.

The images of women are very similar to some sets, but I have never matched one to another set. Guess I will just have to take one or two and look through all the images that Dan has loaded over time. Winter can be pretty long in Vermont. Good cold weather project.

 
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(Login queen_giver_98)

Re: did we ever resolve the "gloved hands" allen and ginter "cards"?

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October 5 2011, 5:46 PM 

I just wanted to add that I once owned a banner. Mine was purchased rolled up and was made from the same stock as other A&G banners. I sold it 5 or 6 years ago, but I do remember I wasn't surprised by the lithographer and almost positive it was dated post 1900....thinking 1901. Never held a card, but you would be able to tell if they were cut from the banner.

 
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Mark Edmunds
(Login kurlywurly)

Re: did we ever resolve the "gloved hands" allen and ginter "cards"?

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March 11 2013, 4:02 PM 

apologies for bumping up an old 'un .

I thought this info taken from the net might be of use to some folks .

This relates to the Opera Gloves.

Dimension of cut out - 3 1/8 x 1 3/4 in. (8 x 4.5 cm) .

--------------------------------------------------------------
Series G29 presents cut-outs from a tobacco advertising banner issued by Allen & Ginter between 1885 and 1890. Citing Burdick's "The American Card Catalog": "Banners are paper hangers with a metal binding at top and bottom edges. The popular size was about 30 inches long but a few measured over five feet in length...The tobacco firms were prolific advertisers using a constant procession of banners, especially to publicize their current insert card sets...The usual design illustrates the card pictures [from the series inserted into tobacco packaging] with a large appropriate center picture." Many consumers would cut up banners in order to "collect" the whole series of cards at once. Although series G29 is not listed in Burdick's "The American Card Catalog," he included notes in his own edition of the book, now included in the collection at the Metropolitan Museum, labeling the series as G29. They are included not as the original banner, but as cut-outs affixed to an album. Each card in the series is numbered and depicts a leather opera glove holding a portrait of a woman. The original banner advertised Richmond Straight Cut Number 1 Cigarettes issued by Allen & Ginter as a branch of the American Tobacco Company. In 1890, the American Tobacco Company purchased Allen & Ginter, as well as many of the large American cigarette manufacturers.

Accession Number: Burdick 202, G29 .

 
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(Login 1880nonsports)

as always

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March 15 2013, 11:01 PM 

thanks Mark. I dig everything Ginter - I just never seem to manage to find the time to research (unless it's for someone else) and I'm bad about accumulating it and getting it on my computer. I keep telling myself I'll get to it but....... happy.gif Love that it refers to Burdick's own notes - sumptin I'd love to add to my stuff...

 
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