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NSB "N" - Nineteenth Century Tobacco Sets...can you help?

January 23 2017 at 4:50 PM
Chris Watson  (Login nscards)

Greetings fellow collectors. It's been quite awhile since I've posted, and I apologize for that. After a self-imposed exile of about 4-5 years necessary to make sure my kids got through high school (and more importantly - would leave our house), I've made it my New Year's resolution to get back into the NSCards arena. I haven't totally been out of it (as I've bought items off the bay here and there), but I just couldn't "flip the switch" back on. On a lark, I visited the National in Atlantic City last fall, and in the one preview evening that I was in attendance, met Marty K, Harry M, Steve S and others - just really great guys and it seemed to rekindle my interest. Given that 2017 marks the tenth anniversary since I published the NSB, I figured I'd start by initiating revisions/additions to get the juices flowing. So, beginning around the 1st of the year, I decided that I'd pick a set (that I knew little about) and do some research... out of the blue, I picked N224.

Obviously, a lot has been written about the Kinney "Military Series" (try searching this site -- the amount of info is massive), but I figured there had to be an angle more than just which cards were rare and limited completion, etc., etc. After 3 weeks of investigation, this is these are the three questions that I have for the esteemed collectors in our midst (NOTE: none of this information should influence value, card availability, etc.). It's my way of trying to substantiate a theory about the order in which certain "styles" were printed and print sheet groupings...along the lines of my prior "G-Men" article in the Wrapper, etc.

Questions:
1) Is the BACK of Style M State Seals 'plain background' cards (i.e. without the blue border - ABC# 268, 275, 277, 279 & 283) the same as those with the blue border? Here is what the back of a blue border variation looks like -
[linked image]

2) Are the BACKS of the two variations of the Style F Military Decorations (ABC# 606-608) the same? Can anyone confirm that a white background variation exists for #605 or 609?..sorry I do not have examples of these to illustrate, but Eric B previous post of the fronts on this site can be searched.

3) Style D cards have one of two different backs. Can anyone confirm have the same card with both backs? Can someone confirm what the last line of the advertising found on the backs of card #3, 480 and 481 begins with (i.e. is it "and flags..." or "cluded as...")? Here are examples of the two different backs -
[linked image]
[linked image]

4) Cards were printed in rows of the same card, as evidenced by some of the uncut sections that have surfaced and the remnants that can be found along card borders...but can anyone confirm how many different cards (i.e. columns) were found on the print sheet? Based on the numbers found on the fronts of 'Styles A-C', I'm guessing that there were ten rows (i.e. ten different cards), but since some of the styles have totals that are not directly divisible by ten, then some cards must have been added to the print sheet....perhaps accounting for the different variations?

Thanks for the input...I'll gladly share what I'm thinking when I've confirmed my suspicions. By the way, if anybody has already made a study of this, please do not hesitate to alert, as I have no desire to "reinvent the wheel".

Chris Watson


    
This message has been edited by nscards on Feb 28, 2017 11:04 AM


 
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Daniel H
(Login PancakeBunny)

Re: N224 Questions

January 23 2017, 4:58 PM 

I don't collect this set Chris, but plenty here do. That aside let me be the first to say welcome back. We have missed you.

 
 
SAM MAJORS
(Login insulator234)

Re: N224 Questions

January 23 2017, 9:02 PM 

Chris,
It was a pleasure meeting you at "THE NATIONAL" in Atlantic City. Hope to see you in Chicago this year! You bought quite a bit at my table; mostly 30's and 40's and 4 different American Card Catalogues. Take care, Sam Majors (the old fat man with a white beard)

 
 
Anonymous
(Login egbeachley)

Re: N224 Questions

January 23 2017, 9:19 PM 

1-3, I'll have to check

4- I don't think that the rows were predominantly all the same cards as you can see from miscuts that sometimes the card above/below or to either side were different or the same. And while 50 is common to many of the series, I'm not sure a great deal of assumptions can be made regarding that. The series of 51 really screws that up, as does the series of 26. But on the baseball side they mention that rows of 13 and 17 were likely.

Some additional nugget should that I can offer while away from my cards:

- Series K is so often cut poorly and rarely straight that I suspect they were hand-cut
- Series F decorations also appear to be hand-cut
- the entire Series E can be found with white backgrounds. That is the only difference
- card #7 can also be found with white background but the wording is different. Why just that card?
- blue-border states are also possibly hand-cut
- Texas seems to be hand-cut or just smaller. Could be an optical illusion
- notice that many of the USA 1886 cards are with or without tiny pink dots
- some cards have blue ink backs
- there are a few cards on a few series that are harder to find than the others. That probably is because of sheets have single vs double prints

 
 
Todd Riley
(Login non-sport.com)

Re: N224 Questions

January 23 2017, 9:39 PM 

Welcome back Chris!

As for your questions, I collect the set but just casually so sadly have no in depth knowledge of the set.

 
 
Chris Watson
(Login nscards)

Print sheet

January 23 2017, 9:57 PM 

Eric -

I was hoping that I'd get a response from you, as it is obvious from review of the Net54 posts that you have a passion for this set. I own only a hundred or so of these cards, but from these plus all of the different internet images that I've looked at over the last three weeks, I can't recall seeing a card with traces of a different adjacent card on either of the sides. Together with the couple of 4-card uncut sections that (I believe) you and another Net54 collector illustrated sometime back, I just assumed that all cards in a row were the same. I also can't readily explain the 5 different numbers that show up on ten cards each of Styles A-C, unless they are meant to identify the sheet on which the cards were printed. As an offer of proof, I offer the observation of the Style B cards. Those depicting the TEN U.S. City and State militias (which seems a little out of place, when you take that the other 30 soldiers are all of a historical nature or depict Native American or other tribal warriors) all bear the 8...3 designation on their front. The TEN Military Decorations and Foreign Coats of Arms all bear 8...5.

Finally, in tracking variations that include different backs within the same 'Style', they always seem to come up divisible by 5 or 10. I do admit that 'Style F' cards are a conundrum, but I suspect that even they weren't all printed at the same time (take a look at the backs of your vatican cards...and I suspect Military Decorations - as I inquired, compared to the others)...something fishy definitely was going on. I'd love to see any evidence that confirms that more than ten different cards were printed on a sheet.

Anybody ever seen two or more DIFFERENT N224 cards attached in a section from a print sheet? One has to exist somewhere...

I look forward to your (as well as others' ) input.


Sam -

Of course I remember you...it's just that I couldn't recall your name (hence "others"), It was very nice meeting you, and I have certainly enjoyed looking over those (just three) old ACCs.

Chris


    
This message has been edited by nscards on Jan 23, 2017 10:34 PM


 
 
Chris Watson
(Login nscards)

Depth...

January 23 2017, 9:58 PM 

Todd -

You might not have "depth" of knowledge, but I know that you've got "depth" of cards...if you've got them readily accessible, see if you have any of the above cards, to check on those backs!

Chris

 
 
Anonymous
(Login egbeachley)

Re: N224 Questions

January 23 2017, 10:25 PM 

Pull these up. Look at the left side. It's a different card.

332092233166

332092233165

Also can see when the gun tips extend beyond the border. Sometimes get a gun tip showing when there is no gun on the main card.


 
 
Chris Watson
(Login nscards)

Re: N224 Questions

January 23 2017, 10:49 PM 

Eric -
You've got a point there, as it does look like remnants of adjacent cards may differ. Perhaps it was only the later plain background cards (which I seem to remember were the 'Styles' that the two 4-card sections were from) that had rows of the same card. Interesting. Surely someone out there has more information on this.

New questions -
T or F: 'Style A' cards that state "Notice" at the top of their backs (See ebay item #332092233166) were the 1st group that Kinney produced in the set... I say this based on it's uniqueness of this back within the set (only found on these cards) and that it identifies that the company was still hand rolling it's cigarettes at the time (reportedly Kinney was one of the last of the 'big 5' tobacco companies to acquire the rolling machines, and I'd guess that you either wanted to advertise that or you "joined the herd"), but if that's the case then where are cards with print sheet # 1-6 found on them (all of 'Style A' cards have a "7" on them)....other Kinney sets? Does anybody know of any other Kinney sets that have these numbers on their fronts (or identify "Collection No. #", like the 'Style B * C' cards)?

Further support, 'Style A' cards were later reprinted with different backs (the so-called "Type 5" back)...:see item# 132064390774 (also note the adjacent card remnant)


    
This message has been edited by nscards on Jan 23, 2017 10:56 PM


 
 
Anonymous
(Login egbeachley)

Re: N224 Questions

January 23 2017, 11:40 PM 

Generally, if you can tell there is a card coming over from the side, it's he same card 80% of the time. Maybe that fits in with your theory of 5s. It's easiest to tell on the colored ones since the white bordered cards can be miscue badly without telling what is next to it.

I could have sworn that miscuts were more common. Maybe I have a bunch.

These are pretty cool. Took only a few minutes to find. Who knew the Man-of-Wars Man for Sweden and Spain would be next to each other on the sheet. And there is a different card to the left.

[linked image]

[linked image]


You might be able to figure out what this card is next to

301942578219

Gun peeking up at the bottom?

311161962759

Looks like the same card next to it

311161959250


    
This message has been edited by egbeachley on Jan 24, 2017 12:50 AM


 
 
Anonymous
(Login rhettmyeakley)

Re: N224 Questions

January 24 2017, 12:41 AM 

Love the set, I have been collecting them somewhat passively for 5-6 years or so and closing in on 550 different.

Here are some of the variations spoken of earlier that I have been able to pick up... (Continental White Background, Series E white background, and the last is a fairly recent pickup that I only noticed after comparing it to the Vatican I already had (notice the one on the left seems to be missing an ink run or two (no flesh tone to face & it is also apparently missing the last line of text normally found there on the gold version).

Awesome set that should get more love, but then they would be more expensive so maybe I'm happy they don't? happy.gif

[linked image]

 
 
Do all 'Style F' cards have the same back?
(Login nscards)

Re: N224 Questions

January 24 2017, 6:37 AM 

Rhett -

Those are some nice examples of 'Style F' cards. They are definitely the puzzle....weird total....plain background variations....absent wording....

My question for you (and anyone else that owns any) - -Do all your 'Style F' cards have the same back (meaning wording/spacing of words on lines/ink color)? I ask because it seems by the ones that I have seen that they don't necessarily all do. I've yet to see the back of a "Military Decoration" of this style....so would love a post of their backs (especially side-by-side with their corresponding plain background variation).


Eric -

Cool observation. I wonder if print sheet produced early in the print run might have contained all the different cards in a row (perhaps so that color corrections, testing the laying down of various ink layers in proper order, etc. might be accomplished) and then was ultimately switched to single card type on rows later on (for whatever reason...seems like a lot of work)....

 
 
Terry
(Login TerGom)

Re: N224 Questions

January 24 2017, 7:47 AM 

Hi Chris,

It's nice to see you back at it! I'm afraid that I can't help you with this issue. Could you please send me an email when you have a chance? lego@magma.ca

Thanks,
Terry


 
 
Anonymous
(Login egbeachley)

Re: N224 Questions

January 24 2017, 9:16 AM 

When I get an opportunity to look at my dupes, which aren't as nice so should have more miscuts, I'll see if I can recreate a longer row.

Marty should be able to validate whether the same card can have both backs. I'm certain the answer is Yes since he is a master set guy and has been collecting versions with 2 backs. He also has a list of over 5 blue backs. They are pretty cool actually. Don't know if they are all in the same series.

I've looked at about 8 of the blue vs no blue state seals and 5 of the F decorations and they all have the "and flags" last line on the back.

As you mentioned, I have shown where 3 of the F decorations have a variety and you questioned whether the other 2 have the variety also. The newest book from the U.K. of non-photographic US N-cards mentions that one of the others does not but the other has 2 different varieties by itself. I haven't seen them.

The Noble Guard shown on the left without the extra stamp I believe had it but it was trimmed off. I've seen about 20 different Vaticans and they all have the stamp but sometimes they are a lot lower than the one on the right. Back in the day collectors, or collector's moms, would trim off tobacco advertising. It would not surprise me if a Protestant would trim off the "Vatican" line, especially 120 years ago.

 
 
Anonymous
(Login nscards)

Style Points

January 24 2017, 2:55 PM 

Style A: agree all cards found in both back variations "Notice" vs. "and flags..." (it seems to me that this style was simply totally reprinted during a time that the latter back was in use).

Style D: I would love to see a single card front with both backs....having looked at nearly 300 cards from this group recently, I have yet to see it....instead I've accounted for 18 cards with the "and flags..." back. The only three that still need confirmation (besides the state seals and military decorations - - although I have seen enough examples to form the opinion that they will likely all have "and flags..." backs) is #603 Roman Military Tribune, #604 Roman Soldier Infantry and #629 Sioux Chief No. America.....you know that I'm guessing that 2 of these 3 have "and flags" backs to make both back groups total a number divisible by ten. I'd love it someone can post confirmation.

Style E: I know that the WTI vaguely reports that "This group is also found in a variety with the colored background omitted", but can anyone account for more than TEN (again getting to my beliefs on how this set was printed...)? I only know of #414 Artillery-Train - Germany-1886 (which Rhett showed above) and #568 Chasseur Officer - Sweden-1886 (which I personally own). Can anyone add to the checklist and/or post plain background examples they own?

Style F: There are at least three different backs for this small group of cards (and to my knowledge, none of the cards seem to have multiple backs)....I think this must be an island unto itself, it doesn't follow any set of rules...perhaps it's time to start thinking about the 10 (no I didn't make that number up) different backs found on N224...more to follow. Regardless, I'd be interested in knowing which Military Decoration hasn't been confirmed to have a plain background....I'd guess that it is #609 Order of the Legion of Honor - France based on the fact that it's background is that salmon-pink color, and it looks like that variation was likely created to make it easier to see the medal detail which was otherwise difficult against the dark blue....can anyone help out with this?

Can anyone confirm that the plain background variation of the Vatican cards have the same back as follows:
[linked image]


Eric - would you be willing to post or e-mail me a 300dpi color scan of the front/back of both of an example of the 'Style F' Military Decorations...it's the only image I think I'm missing for a future NSB listing. My e-mail address: nscards@comcast.net

Anyone - I'd also love to see a "Blue back" variation....

Thanks any and all discussion/participation, Chris




    
This message has been edited by nscards on Jan 24, 2017 3:13 PM


 
 
ted
(Login agfav)

WOW

January 24 2017, 6:36 PM 

What a great thread !! Welcome back Chris, you have everyone digging through their cards (including me). I only have about 200 and most are odd balls like Ponka Chief, Executioner, the wild ones from Japan & the state militias. Eric's examples have been super, I love the different cuts,etc. Its been a while since there has been a great N thread here. This has been great. I know Rhett has some nice
cards. I can't wait for Marty & Henry to jump in. I learn so much from all you N collectors and I greatly appreciate it. I'm so glad that most of my collection is now N.
I have some great Ts but the facination of collecting Ns is unmatchable, Always wondering
what these guys were doing and thinking 135 years ago. Thank you all. tm


    
This message has been edited by agfav on Jan 24, 2017 6:43 PM


 
 
Anonymous
(Login Steve_NY)

Re: N224 Questions

January 24 2017, 11:47 PM 

Chris -- It was a pleasure meeting you in AC, and hope to see you at the Chicago Natl. or maybe an upcoming Philly show. Your research is certainly appreciated. Steve S.

 
 
Eric B
(Login egbeachley)

Re: N224 Questions

January 28 2017, 7:50 PM 

Now that it is the weekend, I have time to answer some of these questions.

Style E: White Background - I have 13 of them and have personally seen scans of 14 others. Plus I heard of a collector in England who has all 50. Your theory isn't completely destroyed as 50 is a multiple of 5 happy.gif Here is something that may be interesting. I have been looking for these for about 10 years, right after I knew they existed. Until about 2 years ago I had a total of 3 of them. Then I picked up 2 on eBay and traded for another for a total of 6. However, about a year ago i went through a lot of 120 cards I purchased about 3-4 years earlier. One of those purchases that I just forgot about, sitting in a box on a shelf. Well that lot of 120 N224s had a whopping 8 white background E-Series cards. After looking through literally thousands and thousands of cards for a handful, this small purchase more than doubled my total.

Vatican Back: White background - I have just one of these and it has the exact same back as the one you have shown.

Style D: The backs were supposed to all have the "in-cluded" back but clearly they also have the "and flags" back as shown and i have confirmed some as well. All 3 of the cards you were questioning also have the "and flags" back. But since this is new information, can you list all the cards and backs and I will go through all of mine to confirm your list.

Style F Decorations: Of the cards #605-609, the background possibilities, according to the Cartophilic Society of GB reference book #151 are:

605 Order of the Black Eagle, Prussia
(A) pale blue/pink
(B) dark blue/mauve
(C) off white/pale pink
606 Order of the Garter, England
(A) pale blue
(B) midnight blue
607 Order of the Golden Fleece, Austria
(A) pale blue
(B) midnight blue
608 Order of the Iron Crown, Austria
(A) pale blue
(B) midnight blue
609 Order of the Legion of Honor, France
just one type


    
This message has been edited by egbeachley on Jan 28, 2017 8:28 PM


 
 
Subset Labelling: Subset 1-4 - checklist
(Login nscards)

Re: N224 Questions

January 29 2017, 2:40 PM 

Eric,

Thanks for the post. As luck would have it, I miscounted my original "Style D" backs, and had to reconfirm with available internet images. With the addition of your three responses, there is now a very nice division as listed below. To avoid confusion, I also went back and reread the WTI and in defining different backs, thought it best to start referring to each grouping as 'subsets' (which is actually the way WTI originally referenced them, with lettered 'styles' referring to card fronts). So here are the first four Subsets breakdown (if anyone can identify an card title with a different back for 'Subset D', PLEASE report it here ASAP)....I'm guessing that this will lead to some debate/comment


MILITARY SERIES

1885-87 - Kinney Bros. 34 x 69 mm
U.S.A. [13 series]

Considered to be the most complex of all 19th century sets, this assigned title unifies many cards that were likely issued in small batches (divisble by ten, based on the presumed print sheet format), beginning in late 1885 or early 1886. At an early point during it's issuance, production would have coincided with the switch to machine-rolled cigarettes during an intense period of competition for customers that became known as the “Tobacco War” and ultimately lead to merger and formation of the American Tobacco Company in 1890. Cards share a common theme and format, but include a wide variety of subjects, including: 563 types of soldiers (then current U.S. and foreign troops, historical, and Native American or other native warriors), twenty-seven state seals, twenty military decorations or medals, ten foreign coats of arms, and even two ancient warships. Early collector Charles Bray originally segregated the set into eleven different groups based on subject matter and then assigned sequential numbers from #1-622 which he published in the “American Book of Checklists” (ABC), pp 13-23. The World Trade Index (WTI) lated defined thirteen different “subsets” of cards based on the features found on their fronts (background, caption format, unique series/print sheet numbers, subect matter) and five back designs; however, it is now recognized that these subsets (or series) are not entirely sequential or even accurately inclusive, based on the most logical explanation for the evolution of the ten different card backs and different variations that are now known to exist. All cards are printed on very thin whte card stock which is easily creased or torn. Cards are often recovered from scrapbooks that result in glue residue/staining, paper loss, or ink fading on their backs. Based on uncut groups and unique characteristics found on Subsets A-C, cards appear to have likely been printed predominantly in rows of the same card (total number of card in a row or on a print sheet unknown); however, a small minority of miscut cards encountered today demonstrate that this was not an exclusive process (as remnants of different cards are apparent). Even though cards are still readily found today and it may be possible to complete individual series, due to a significant number of scarcities and the sheer number, no one has ever amassed one of each of the 622 different. An advertising banner (G92) was produced for this issue that depicted 118 different soldiers, 4 different state seals, and 4 different military decorations, utilizing artwork found on cards from Subsets D, G, H, I and M. (ACC# N224)

ALPHABETICAL CHECKLIST: [WTI front style - ABC assigned card no.]
For the sake of space, I didn't include this checklist here.

Subset A
50 unnumbered cards (+var.)
[linked image]
Sorry....I have an image for the state seals and foreign coat of arms, but have to resave it....needless to say backs are the same!
Card fronts, classified as “Style A” by the WTI, have a colored background design which is highlighted with gold and a '7' printed on the left side at the same level as a number 1-5 on their right (presumed to designate the print sheet since each number is found on ten different cards). This series is subdivided into thirty soldiers (ten of which are from foreign militaries with the remainder being from U.S. city and state militias; none are dated), fifteen state seals and five foreign coats of arms. Fronts contain a title identifying the picture, as well as a brand logo. Two back variations appear to exist for each card (each has been confirmed for cards from the five “print sheets”). The one that was likely issued first is unique to all the series and states “Notice” [A] at top. This back advises consumers to beware competitors’ lesser products and accept no substitute, as well as making reference to a fact at the time that would soon change - that their cigarettes were hand-rolled. The other is likely a later reprint since they have a type [C1] back (last line that starts with “...and flags...”), which is also found on some of ‘Subset D’ cards (presumably the first printed of that series, so that the ‘Subset A’ reprint would have immediately preceded). Cards from the 4th and 5th ‘print sheet’ may be scarcer. (ACC# N224-1)


CHECKLIST: [print sheet number; ABC assigned card number]
(1) Bugler Milwaukee Lt. Horse [4; 249]
(2) Corporal of the Zouaves France [3; 357]
(3) General Denmark [3; 311]
(4) Off, Silver State Rifles, Denver [4; 77]
(5) Officer 1st Lt. Battery Wis. [4; 250]
(6) Officer, 1st Reg’t, Ill., N.G. [4; 82]
(7) Officer, 7th Inft., N.J.M. [4; 157]
(8) Officer, Balt. Md. Lt. Inf. [5; 103]
(9) Officer City Troop, Phila. [5; 218]
(10) Officer, Milwaukee Lt. Horse [5; 251]
(11) Officer of Artillery, Portugal [3; 501]
(12) Officer of Cavalry, Italy. [3; 476]
(13) Officer of Cavalry, Sweden [3; 572]
(14) Officer of Dragoons Austria [3; 301]
(15) Officer of Dragoons Norway [3; 496]
(16) Officer of Infantry, Denmark [3; 312]
(17) Officer of Infantry, Spain. [3; 561]
(18) Officer of Zouaves, France [3; 401]
(19) Priv. Fayetteville Lt. Inf't, N.C. [5; 213]
(20) Priv., Howitzer Company 4th N.J. [4; 160]
(21) Priv. Silver State Rifles Denver [5; 78]
(22) Private, 1st Battery, Minn. [4; 145]
(23) Private 1st Lt. Battery Wis. [4; 253]
(24) Private 1st Regt. Ill. N.G. [5; 85]
(25) Private 2d. Vet. Vet. Corps. Phila Pa. [5; 221]
(26) Private 5th Regt. Maryland [5; 105]
(27) Private City Troop, Phila. [4; 222]
(28) Private Gov. Foot Guard, Iowa [5; 95]
(29) Private Milwaukee Lt. Horse [5; 254]
(30) Private, Orphan Cadets, Phila., Pa. [4; 223]

State Seals:
(31) Arms of the State of Connecticut [2; 260]
(32) Arms of the State of Florida [2; 261]
(33) Arms of the State of Indiana [2; 263]
(34) Arms of the State of Kansas [1; 265]
(35) Arms of the State of Mississippi [1; 271]
(36) Arms of the State of Nevada [1; 273]
(37) Arms of the State of New Hampshire [2; 274]
(38) Arms of the State of Rhode Island [1; 280]
(39) Arms of the State of Tennessee [2; 281]
(40) State Arms of California [2; 258]
(41) State Arms of Iowa [2; 264]
(42) State Arms of Maine [2; 267]
(43) State Arms of Michigan [2; 269]
(44) State Arms of Nebraska [2; 272]
(45) State Arms of Texas [1; 282]

Foreign Coats of Arms:
(46) Belgium [1; 613]
(47) England [1; 616]
(48) Germany [1; 618]
(49) Italy [1; 619]
(50) Russia [1; 621]


Subset B
50 unnumbered cards
[linked image]
[linked image]
Card fronts, classified as “Style B” by the WTI, have a colored background design which is highlighted with gold and an ‘8’ printed on their left side at the same level as a number 1-5 on their right (presumed to designate the print sheet since each number is found on ten different cards). Backs, designated as type [B1], identify “Collection No.8” at the top, which is presumably a reference to the total number of different card issues the manufacturer had issued to that point (and not necessarily the eighth release in this set title), above a non-alphabetized checklist of all cards in the series. This series is subdivided into forty soldiers (ten of which are from U.S. city and state militias, with the remainder representing warriors from at least two centuries prior or Native Americans), five foreign coats of arms and five military decorations. Cards from the 3rd ‘print sheet’, representing soldiers from different U.S. city and state militias, appear to have either been short-printed [sp] or so popular that they were more readily pulled out of circulation, as they are at least 30% less common in circulation today than cards depicting other soldiers. (ACC# N224-2)

CHECKLIST: [print sheet number; ABC assigned card number]
(1) Bowman, France, 16th Cent. [2; 347]
(2) Bowman, Poland. 14th Cent. [4; 497]
(3) Chippewa Chief, N.A. [1; 1]
(4) Commander, Greece, B.C. [1; 452]
(5) Corporal of Fusiliers, France, 18th Cent. [2; 356]
(6) Court Dress, Scotland, 1740 [2; 525]
(7) Cymbalier, French Guard, 1786 [2; 360]
(8) Earl of Sutherland, Scotland, 1759. [2; 526]
(9) Executioner, Poland, 14th Cent. [4; 498]
(10) Fifer, France, 17th Cent. [4; 365]
(11) Foot Lancer, France 16th Cent. [2; 367]
(12) Foot Soldier, France, 14th Cent. [1; 368]
(13) French Infantry, 16th Cent. [2; 369]
(14) Gallic Spearman, France, B.C. [4; 371]
(15) Gallic Warrior, France, B.C. [4; 372]
(16) Gentleman, Poland, 14th Cent. [4; 499]
(17) High Constable, Poland, 18th Cent. [4; 500]
(18) Horseman, Greece, B.C. (facing left, holding sword) [1; 453]
(19) Horseman, Greece, B.C. (facing right, holding staff) [1; 454]
(20) Inft. Soldier Japan [1; 492]
(21) Kings Swiss Guard, France, 16th Cent. [2; 382]
(22) Light Inft. Soldier, Greece, B.C. [1; 455]
(23) Major, French Guard, 1786 [2; 387]
(24) Officer, 2nd Battery, Maryland, N.G. [sp - 3; 102]
(25) Officer 4th Iowa N.G. [sp - 3; 91]
(26) Officer, Army of the Bow, Japan [1; 494]
(27) Officer, France, 18th Cent. [4; 398]
(28) Officer of the Guard, France, 16th Cent. [4; 400]
(29) Officer, Toledo Cadets, Phila. [sp - 3; 220]
(30) Ponka Chief, N.A. [1; 2]
(31) Priv. Ancient and Honorable Art., Boston [sp - 3; 140]
(32) Priv. Hawkins Zouaves 9th N.Y. Vet. [sp - 3; 206]
(33) Private, 2nd Batt., Maryland, N.G. [sp - 3; 104]
(34) Private, Balt. Md. Lt. Inft. [sp - 3; 106]
(35) Private, Maryland State Militia [sp - 3; 107]
(36) Private, Oakland Rifles, Chicago [sp - 3; 88]
(37) Private Va. S. Militia [sp - 3; 247]
(38) Sergeant of Zeibecks Turkey [2; 581]
(39) Standard Bearer, France, 16th Cent. [4; 408]
(40) Warrior, Europe 4th Cent. [1; 344]

Military Decorations:
(41) Milit. Order of Max Joseph Bavaria [5; 597]
(42) Order of Seraphs - Sweden and Norway [5; 603]
(43) Order of St. Andrew - Russia [5; 604]
(44) Order of the Lion of Netherlands [5; 610]
(45) Order Pour Le Merite Prussia [5; 612]

Foreign Coats of Arms:
(46) Brazil [5; 614]
(47) China [5; 615]
(48) France [5; 617]
(49) Japan [5; 620]
(50) Turkey [5; 622]


Subset C
30 unnumbered cards
[linked image]
[linked image]
[linked image]
Card fronts, classified as “Style C” by the WTI, all have the number ‘9’ printed on their left side at the same level as a number 1-3 on their right (presumed to designate the print sheet since each number is found on ten different cards). All cards have the same back, designated as type [B2], which identifies “Collection No.9” at the top, which presumably would have directly followed the preceding ‘Subset B’ (“Collection No.8” on back), above a non-alphabetized checklist of all cards in the series. This series is subdivided into twenty soldiers (ten being from city/state militias and ten being ancient warriors), five military decorations, three state seals and two ancient warships. (ACC# N224-3)

CHECKLIST: [print sheet number; ABC assigned card number]
(1) Dauphin of France, 1360 [3; 361]
(2) General, Cavalry, France, 17th Cent. [3; 373]
(3) Gentleman France 16th Cent. [3; 376]
(4) Knight, France, 11th Cent. [3; 384]
(5) Knight, France, 16th Cent. [3; 383]
(6) Knight, France, End of 12th Cent. [3; 385]
(7) Man at Arms, France. 14th Cent. [3; 388]
(8) Musketeer France 17th Cent. [3; 396]
(9) Officer 3rd Regt. Ill. N.G. [1; 83]
(10) Officer, Cannoneers, France, 16th Cent. [3; 397]
(11) Officer City Guards Springfield O [1; 214]
(12) Officer, Girard College Cadets, Phila. [1; 219]
(13) Officer, Racine Lt. Guards Wis. [1; 252]
(14) Private 3rd Regt, Ill. N.G. [1; 86]
(15) Private City Guards Springfield O [1; 215]
(16) Private, Meagher Guards Prov. R.I. [1; 237]
(17) Private R.I. State Militia [1; 241]

(18) Private, Racine Lt. Guards, Wis. [1; 255]
(19) Sergt Maj., 4th Inft. N.J.M. [1; 162]
(20) Swiss Mercenary France 15th Cent. [3; 410]

State Seals:
(21) State Arms of Kentucky [2; 266]
(22) State Arms of North Carolina [2; 276]
(23) State Arms of Virginia [2; 284]

Military Decorations:
(24) Crown Order of Wurtemberg Germany [2; 593]
(25) House Order of Mecklenburg - Germany [2; 594]
(26) House Order of Saxony [2; 595]
(27) Iron Cross Prussia [2; 596]
(28) Order of the Lion of the Zaehringer - Baden - Germany [2; 611]

Warships:
(29) Norman Man of War A.D. 800 [2; 591]
(30) Roman Man of War, 200 B.C. [2; 592]


Subset D
50 unnumbered cards
[linked image]
[linked image]
[linked image]

This series is presumed to have followed the first three subsets (and the reprint of ‘Subset A’, as discussed below), based on their color fronts and similar caption characteristics. Cards are found with one of two different backs, but apparently not both (none seen to date). Cards with type [C1] back likely represent the initial printing that would have directly followed the reprint of ‘Subset A’ that share the same back. After the first twenty cards (2 print sheets), cards would have changed to the type [D1] back. The WTI initially subdivided this series into forty soldiers, five state seals, and five military decorations; however, the five military decorations found in ‘Subset F’ and the five state seals found in ‘Subset M’ also have the type [C1] back, suggesting some association(perhaps an additional print sheet immediately preceding the production of this release). (ACC# N224-4)

CHECKLIST: [Back type; ABC assigned card number]
(1) Abyssinian Soldier. [C1; 583]
(2) Admiral, Greece. [D1; 450]
(3) Arouebussier, (France,) 16th Cent. [D1; 346]
(4) Capt. Albany Academy Cadets [D1; 165]
(5) Captain of Grenadiers, Holland [D1; 457]
(6) Chief, Island of Borneo [C1; 584]
(7) Chief, Marquesas Islands [D1; 585]
(8) Cingalese Chief, Island of Ceylon [C1; 586]
(9) Col. of Cavalry, Greece. [D1; 451]
(10) Com. Paris Militia, 14th Cent. [C1; 355]
(11) Cross Bowman France 15th Century [D1; 358]
(12) Drum Major, France, 1793. [D1; 364]
(13) General, Belgium. [D1; 308]
(14) General of Cavalry, Holland [D1; 458]
(15) General, Servia. [D1; 528]
(16) Governor's Ft. Guard, Hartford, Conn. [D1; 79]
(17) Highland Warrior Scotland, 17th Cent. [D1; 527]
(18) Kabyle,-Algeria [D1; 287]
(19) Malay-Warrior [D1; 587]
(20) Musketeer, France, 16th Cent. [D1; 395]
(21) Officer, 2nd Battery, N.G.S.N.Y. [D1; 171]
(22) Officer, Louisville Lt. Inft. Ky. [D1; 98]
(23) Officer, Montenegro [D1; 495]
(24) Officer of Mounted Inf't, Greece. [D1; 456]
(25) Private, 2nd Regt. Iowa, N.G. [D1; 93]
(26) Private, Cadet Corps, 13th N.G.S.N.Y. [D1; 204]
(27) Private, Fenton Guard, Jamestown, N.Y. [D1; 205]
(28) Private Fusiliers, Switzerland. [D1; 576]
(29) Private, Louisville Lt. Inf't. Ky. [D1; 100]
(30) Private Natl. Rifles Washington D.C. [D1; 80]
(31) Private of Grenadiers, Belgium [D1; 309]
(32) Private U. Train Artillery, R.I.M. [D1; 245]
(33) Rajah, (India). [D1; 588]
(34) Roman Legionary [C1; 479]
(35) Roman Military Tribune [C1; 480]
(36) Roman Soldier, Infantry [C1; 481]
(37) Sioux Chief, No. America [C1; 3]
(38) Vice Admiral, France, 1786. [D1; 412]
(39) Warrior, Coast of Guinea. [C1; 589]
(40) Zulu Chief, Natal, So. Africa [C1; 590]

State Seals:
(41) State Arms of Alabama [C1; 257]
(42) State Arms of Colorado [C1; 259]
(43) State Arms of Illinois [C1; 262]
(44) State Arms of Minnesota [C1; 270]
(45) State Arms of Oregon [C1; 278]

Military Decorations:
(46) Order Dell Annunciata - Italy [C1; 600]
(47) Order of Charles III - Spain [C1; 598]
(48) Order of Christ - Portugal [C1; 599]
(49) Order of Maximilian Bavaria for Science and Art [C1; 601]
(50) Order of Medschidie-Turkey [C1; 602]


The next question, given your knowledge of the 25+ plain background "Subset 5" (Style E) cards, is can we confirm that at least 41 of the titles can be confirmed as having this variation (I'm pretty confident that as you say - all 50 actually exist).


Subset E
[linked image]
KNOWN CHECKLIST: [ABC assigned card number]
(1) Admiral - Spain-1886 [529]
(2) Artillery Sweden 1886 [567]
(3) Artillery-Train - Germany-1886 [414] [a] colored [b] plain background
(4) Bavarian Infantry - Germany-1886 [415]
(5) Bavarian Light Cavalry - Germany-1886 [417]
(6) Captain Cavalry-Geneve Regt. - Italy-1886 [463]
(7) Captain-Cavalry - Spain-1886 [530]
(8) Captain General-Full Dress - Spain-1886 [531]
(9) Captain-Princess Hussars - Spain-1886 [532]
(10) Captain-Royal Escort - Spain-1886 [533]
(11) Chasseur Officer - Sweden-1886 [568] [a] colored [b] plain background
(12) Colonel-Fatigue Dress - Spain-1886 [535]
(13) Commodore - Spain-1886 [536]
(14) Corporal of Bersaglieri - Italy-1886 [465]
(15) Engineer Corps - Italy-1886 [467]
(16) Engineer Corps - Spain-1886 [540]
(17) Engineer Corps - Sweden-1886 [569]
(18) Field Artillery - Germany-1886 [421]
(19) Foot Chasseur-Landwehr - Germany-1886 [423]
(20) Foot Chasseur-Trumpeter - Spain-1886 [541]
(21) Forestry Guard - Italy-1886 [468]
(22) Gendarme - Spain-1886 [544]
(23) Guard Royal - Germany-1886 [429]
(24) Guard Royal - Sweden-1886 [570]
(25) Halberdier, Full Dress - Spain 1886 [545]
(26) Hungarian Infantry - Austria-1886 [297]
(27) Hungarian Landwehr - Austria-1886 [298]
(28) Infantry Full Dress - Italy-1886 [469]
(29) Infantry - Germany-1886 [430]
(30) Infantry Officer - Italy-1886 [470]
(31) Infantry - Spain-1886 [550]
(32) Lieut. General, Fatigue Dress - Spain-1886 [552]
(33) Man-of-War's Man - Spain-1886 (white uniform, facing right) [553]
(34) Man-of-War's Man - Spain-1886 (blue uniform, facing left) [554]
(35) Man-of-War's Man- Sweden-1886 [571]
(36) Midshipman - Spain-1886 [557]
(37) Military Advocate General - Italy-1886 [472]
(38) Muleteer - Spain-1886 [559]
(39) Officer of Infantry - Germany-1886 [431]
(40) Officer-Ordnance - Spain-1886 [563]
(41) Pioneer - Austria-1886 [302]
(42) Pioneer of the Guard - Germany-1886 [432]
(43) Saxon Cavalry Germany 1886 [436]
(44) Saxon Chasseur - Germany-1886 [437]
(45) Sergeant Piedmonte Cavalry - Italy-1886 [482]
(46) Soldier of Alpine Regts. - Italy- 1886 [483]
(47) Soldier of the Line - Sweden-1886 [573]
(48) Staff Officer-Commandant - Sweden-1886 [574]
(49) Staff Orderly - Sweden-1886 [575]
(50) Vice-Brigadier-Foot Carbineers - Italy-1886 [487]

Who can confirm/add to the plain background variations?... Thanks in advance for participating






    
This message has been edited by nscards on Feb 28, 2017 11:02 AM


 
 
Eric B
(Login egbeachley)

Re: N224 Questions

January 30 2017, 8:32 AM 

Chris, a lot of good detective work here. I can't believe I never noticed that the other number to the right was broken into groups of 10. Plus Style D was always published as having one type of back. Although I never paid too much attention to backs. But I like how you have made some plausible assumptions as to when these were printed by using the backs.

You have made a big assumption that the sub-numbers denote sheets. I'm not so sure of that yet and it won't be easily proved and may actually be easier to disprove. So I gave it a shot. For Style C I pulled my dupes and, as typical, I found many examples of slight miscuts where the card next to it was the same. That's good and we know that many, maybe most or even all the cards were grouped together in the same row in some quantity. I even found an example where the miscut was top/bottom and the card below was also the same as it was the only card in this Style with salmon color. I will edit later to load the scan.

For Style B I attempted to do the same thing. Again, found many cards with side miscuts being the same card. But I also found a few cards slightly miscut top/bottom that had a color of design that was not found in the grouping of 10 that you have listed. Still open as I may have missed a card when validating. I need to pull cards out of boxes and binders and lay them all out to do a better job. I'll load those scans too.

As an alternate to your theory, could it be that the sub-numbers were actually design groups? Meaning that the artists were given a group of 10 at a time to design. This kind of makes sense too since the groupings have a pattern, like all the US cards in Style C are one group, the states and decorations another. In Style D, all Poland and Japan and some France in one grouping, etc. This is just a theory for discussion and actually doesn't disprove your sheet theory as both can be true. But it may help explain the Style B problem I am having.

Have you done the same analysis for the "7" series cards as they also have sub-numbers?

By the way, I have a copy of a completely different back for Style D that I have only seen one example of. Will load when I get a chance tomorrow.





    
This message has been edited by egbeachley on Jan 30, 2017 8:36 AM


 
 
 
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