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Any follow-up?
(Login nscards)

Re: N224 Questions

February 9 2017, 2:40 PM 

Looks like interest in this topic has waned... last call for (1) compiling checklist of plain background 'Style E' (or Subset 5) cards, disproving theories, etc.

We haven't even attempted to tackler 'Style F' (or Subset 6) cards....I was saving those for the very end, as I think I can make a compelling story for the plain background 'Style G-M' cards. Anybody interested?

 
 
Anonymous
(Login egbeachley)

Re: N224 Questions

February 10 2017, 4:22 PM 

Chris, don't rush to consider that interest has waned. I expect there are some who are waiting for the next piece of information but don't have much to add.

There are some tough questions and theories posed that require a bit of research, and that means time. Right now I am gathering together all I have from this set, which is about 4000 cards, and looking through them from a set and subset viewpoint. Unfortunately the set is not organized by series so they aren't even on the same binder page in most cases. Plus I have my cards in 6 different places (graded and main set, set #2 in binder for display, good cards for grading, dupes in sleeves, poor dupes in a box, rare cards offsite).

I've been looking for cards that have good evidence of a card next to it but still need to lay them out to find a match. Some scans need to be uploaded.

Also, Marty has been unavailable and hasn't chimed in yet. He has been collecting a master set so he may be able to help there.

 
 
MARTY KRIM
(Login 030190)

N224

February 10 2017, 6:36 PM 

I see that Eric has sent my name into the chat-line atmosphere - and so here I am..

Unfortunately I have nothing to add..

Much of my information that is worthwhile comes from Mr Eric..

And to be factual, after these years of scraping and scrimping around trying to become a member of the 600 club and now finally having done so - no one will show me the 'Secret Handshake' or sing me the 'Member's Song'.. (Do not pretend that there is no such thing)..

I have lost a bit of my get up and go with this set for the moment and am just enjoying having 600 cards..

Other members are soon to follow, such as our Fearless Leader and the intrepid Tony Bourassa..

Have to go now as I am re-counting my T113 cards for the 18th time as I have gotten seventeen different totals.

 
 
Anonymous
(Login rhettmyeakley)

Re: N224 Questions

February 10 2017, 7:18 PM 

I echo what Eric said, there is definitely interest in a discussion on this set, this site just doesn't have as many eyes on it as I think we would like so discussions tend to take some time!

-Rhett

 
 
Anonymous
(Login egbeachley)

Re: N224 Questions

February 10 2017, 10:05 PM 

Marty, don't you have many cards with 2 types of backs? That's going to help with the timeline and possible sheet configurations. Plus you have a number of blue backs and Colored Sketches backs. And what about that one-of-a-kind back on the Virginia State Seal?

Edited to add, wasn't there a census of the blue-bordered State Seals?


    
This message has been edited by egbeachley on Feb 10, 2017 10:07 PM


 
 
MARTY KRIM
(Login 030190)

N224

February 11 2017, 5:39 AM 

In regards to the entry of Eric mentioning my cards...I have the following comments..

1. I have a few VERTICAL TEXT BACKS that read COLORED SKETCHES in bold at the center...They are:
#295 (Gendarme of Guard Austria)...#299 (Imperial Body Guard - Austria)..#305 (Ulan Austria)..#307 (Royal Body Guard - Austro Hungary)..#460 (Soldier of the Line - Hungary)..
So we see that all of these are related to Austria or Hungary...Would be interesting to see if there are others that can be added to this meager list..

2. Different Types of Backs: There are the a)..eight line texts prominent in the very low number U.S.A. series...There is the b)..seven line text which seems to be the most common...There is the c)..'Collection of 8 Fifty Subjects' followed by d)..'The Collection of 9 Thirty Subjects'..
I have a few backs with BLUE TEXT such as: #506...491...45...
Virginia State Seal with a Beware of Imitations Sweet Corporal back (thank you David Epps)..
There are the NOTICE backs (with Notice on the top line in bold print all by its lonesome)..

Eric can let me know if I forgot something




Marty, don't you have many cards with 2 types of backs? That's going to help with the timeline and possible sheet configurations. Plus you have a number of blue backs and Colored Sketches backs. And what about that one-of-a-kind back on the Virginia State Seal?

Edited to add, wasn't there a census of the blue-bordered State Seals?

 
 
Chris Watson
(Login nscards)

Interested in cataloguing variations!

February 28 2017, 8:50 PM 

Eric and Marty -

I would be very interested in compiling a list of N224 variations that you two have mentioned.

Eric (and anybody else who has any) - how about a list of numbers from 'Subtype E' that have plain backgrounds.

Marty (and anybody else) - how about seeing scans of the front/backs with BLUE TEXT such as: #506...491...45...
and the front/back of your Virginia State Seal with a Beware of Imitations Sweet Corporal back (thank you David Epps)..

In exchange....I'll tell you erroneous 51 'Subtype G' card (i.e. the card that has been assigned for the last 60+ years, but doesn't actually belong to this group) and why...

Chris

P.S. - I'm actually going to divulge it anyway, but I'm just hoping somebody will help me fill in some of the holes about some of the more esoteric facts about in this set...


    
This message has been edited by nscards on Feb 28, 2017 8:55 PM


 
 
Eric B
(Login egbeachley)

Re: NSB "N" - Nineteenth Century Tobacco Sets...can you help?

March 1 2017, 1:45 AM 

Maybe I wasn't clear. All 50 Series E cards have a white background. I have 13 of them and have scans of 15 more. Plus a collector in England reportedly has all 50 of them.

Always thought 51 was weird. Never thought to question it and research. But I don't see how this is possible since all 51 have the same back and all say USA 1886 on the front.


    
This message has been edited by egbeachley on Mar 1, 2017 7:02 AM


 
 

autograp@gmail.com
(Premier Login autograf)
Owner

Buy a lottery ticket

March 1 2017, 8:43 AM 

Like Marty, I have exactly (5) vertical text backs all of which are Austria/Hungary related and, oddly enough, they are EXACTLY the same (5) Marty has.
The odds of that are astronomical. If Powerball were only more than $53M, I might buy a ticket.

 
 

autograp@gmail.com
(Premier Login autograf)
Owner

Next question

March 1 2017, 8:43 AM 

Next question is, does anyone have those (5) cards with "NORMAL" backs............?

 
 

Charley Ramone
(Login oldbubblegum)

Dr. Watson I presume?

March 1 2017, 12:02 PM 

As I live and breathe! Wow, what a shocker to see so many threads from you!


Cool.






" showing the love since 1962 "

 
 
Anonymous
(Login egbeachley)

Re: NSB "N" - Nineteenth Century Tobacco Sets...can you help?

March 1 2017, 12:15 PM 

Do we know what cards (or series) have more than 1 type of back?

 
 
Chris Watson
(Login nscards)

Re: NSB &quot;N&quot; - Nineteenth Century Tobacco Sets...can you help?

March 1 2017, 5:12 PM 

Here are the next two subsets - should help answer the back variation questions... I'm looking for an image of a gold and corresponding plain background (can be the same card as the one below or a different pair) variations of a Vatican card...can anybody help by posting 300dpi image(s)?


Subset E
50 unnumbered cards (+var.)
[linked image]
This subset depicts soldiers from Austria, Germany, Italy, Spain and Sweden. Cards are typically found with soldiers displayed against color backgrounds that have gold accents [a], but they also all exist in a much scarcer plain background version [b]. All text found on front is in a sans serif font in a dedicated space at card bottom, and each soldier identification is dated 1886. Backs of both front variations are type [D1] and are printed in black ink on glossy white card stock. Absent on the [D1] back is any reference to Military decorations, Coats of Arms, or Flags of All Nations, and none are to be found associated with this subset. (ACC# N224-5)

CHECKLIST: [ABC assigned card number]
(1) Admiral - Spain-1886 [529]
(2) Artillery Sweden 1886 [567]
(3) Artillery-Train - Germany-1886 [414]
(4) Bavarian Infantry - Germany-1886 [415]
(5) Bavarian Light Cavalry - Germany-1886 [417]
(6) Captain Cavalry-Geneve Regt. - Italy-1886 [463]
(7) Captain-Cavalry - Spain-1886 [530]
(8) Captain General-Full Dress - Spain-1886 [531]
(9) Captain-Princess Hussars - Spain- 1886 [532]
(10) Captain-Royal Escort - Spain-1886 [533]
(11) Chasseur Officer - Sweden-1886 [568]
(12) Colonel-Fatigue Dress - Spain- 1886 [535]
(13) Commodore - Spain-1886 [536]
(14) Corporal of Bersaglieri - Italy- 1886 [465]
(15) Engineer Corps - Italy-1886 [467]
(16) Engineer Corps - Spain-1886 [540]
(17) Engineer Corps - Sweden-1886 [569]
(18) Field Artillery - Germany-1886 [421]
(19) Foot Chasseur-Landwehr - Germany-1886 [423]
(20) Foot Chasseur-Trumpeter - Spain- 1886 [541]
(21) Forestry Guard - Italy-1886 [468]
(22) Gendarme - Spain-1886 [544]
(23) Guard Royal - Germany-1886 [429]
(24) Guard Royal - Sweden-1886 [570]
(25) Halberdier, Full Dress - Spain 1886 [545]
(26) Hungarian Infantry - Austria-1886 [297]
(27) Hungarian Landwehr - Austria- 1886 [298]
(28) Infantry Full Dress - Italy-1886 [469]
(29) Infantry - Germany-1886 [430]
(30) Infantry Officer - Italy-1886 [470]
(31) Infantry - Spain-1886 [550]
(32) Lieut. General, Fatigue Dress - Spain-1886 [552]
(33) Man-of-War's Man - Spain-1886 (white uniform, facing right) [553]
(34) Man-of-War's Man - Spain-1886 (blue uniform, facing left) [554]
(35) Man-of-War's Man- Sweden-1886 [571]
(36) Midshipman - Spain-1886 [557]
(37) Military Advocate General - Italy- 1886 [472]
(38) Muleteer - Spain-1886 [559]
(39) Officer of Infantry - Germany- 1886 [431]
(40) Officer-Ordnance - Spain-1886 [563]
(41) Pioneer - Austria-1886 [302]
(42) Pioneer of the Guard - Germany- 1886 [432]
(43) Saxon Cavalry Germany 1886 [436]
(44) Saxon Chasseur - Germany-1886 [437]
(45) Sergeant Piedmonte Cavalry - Italy-1886 [482]
(46) Soldier of Alpine Regts. - Italy- 1886 [483]
(47) Soldier of the Line - Sweden-1886 [573]
(48) Staff Officer-Commandant - Sweden-1886 [574]
(49) Staff Orderly - Sweden-1886 [575]
(50) Vice-Brigadier-Foot Carbineers - Italy-1886 [487]



Subset F
26 unnumbered cards (+var.)
[linked image]
[linked image]
[linked image]
[linked image]
This subset seems to have been the “catch all” of the early cataloguers. It contains the rather odd total of twenty-six card designs, all of which feature solid or predominantly gold backgrounds. This combined with the fact that more than a third of the cards can be found in a plain background variation are presumably the reasons that they were originally grouped together; however, this “union” is confounded by the fact that there are three distinct backs. The majority of the cards depict historical American soldiers that are dated from 1777 to 1847, with the earliest - “Captain - Continental Artillery, 1777”, being found with a plain background front variation without the “Illust’d Sweet Caporal” brand name. These eighteen cards have a unique back (not found in any other subset), printed in black ink on glossy stock. The odd total, unique back and the fact that only one of the cards (having the same, back) exists in a plain background variation, makes this group one of the true enigmas of the set. Differential scarcity of some of these cards might account for the seemingly odd total (perhaps the more commonly encountered cards were printed more than once in order to “fill-in the gaps” on print sheets ), but this wouldn’t account for the single plain background variation (unless it was simply produced as a short trial during one of the print runs). Perhaps the easiest to explain are five military decorations that contain a back more commonly encountered in some of the earlier subsets. These cards all have a type [C1] back, printed in a light brown ink, and were presumably printed in conjunction with those found in subset 4 (same back). Their original inclusion in Subset 6 may have been due to the fact that four of the five can also be found with a white background. This variation was likely created due to the fact that the original dark blue background, that surrounds the medal, made it difficult to discern it’s black and gold intracacies. Simple elimination of this color from the four “affected” cards (the fifth has a salmon-solored background which didn’t require removal) would account for the unusual number of plain background varations. Finally, there are three cards - each with the unique [C5] type back (printed in darker brown) that is not found on any other N224 card, that represent guards of the Pointifical States or Vatican. Each of these also exists with a plain background variation which was likely produced becayse it was difficult to read the front caption against the original solid gold background. So, plain background variations are known to exist for nine of the cards, and all are quite scarce. (ACC# N224-6)

CHECKLIST: [ABC assigned card number]
(1) American Dragoon 1779 [4]
(2) American General Officer 1779 [5]
(3) American Light Infantry 1782 [6]
(4) Captain - Continental Artillery, 1777 [7]
[a] colored [b] plain background
(5) Line Officer - American Infantry 1779 [8]
(6) U.S. Artillery-Captain-1847 [9]
(7) U.S. Artillery-Sergeant-1835 [10]
(8) U.S. Cavalry-Private-1799 [11]
(9) U.S. Cavalry-Private-1847 [12]
(10)U.S. General Officer 1813 [13]
(11) U.S. Infantry-1810 [14]
(12) U.S. Infantry 1847 [21]
(13) U.S. Infantry-Lieutenant 1799 [15]
(14) U.S. Infantry-Private-1813 [16]
(15) U.S. Light Artillery/Lieutenant 1813 [17]
(16) U.S. Major General-1835 [18]
(17) U.S. Musician 1796 [19]
(18) U.S. Rifleman 1813 [20]

Military Decorations - Type C1 back:
(19) Order of the Black Eagle - Prussia [605]
[a] colored [b] plain background
(20) Order of the Garter - England [606]
[a] colored [b] plain background
(21) Order of the Golden Fleece - Austria [607]
[a] colored [b] plain background
(22) Order of the Iron Cross - Austria [608]
[a] colored [b] plain background
(23) Order of the Legion of Honor - France [609]

Vatican - Type D5 back:
(24) Noble Guard - Vatican Rome, Italy. [473]
[a] colored [b] plain background
(25) Pontifical Guard - Vatican Rome, Italy. [478]
[a] colored [b] plain background
(26) Swiss Guard - Vatican Rome, Italy. [486]
[a] colored [b] plain background


Finally...a rather silly question...anyone ever take the time to characterize which of the subsets that the 118 soldiers, 4 state seals, and 4 military decorations displayed on the banner (see Todd's site)? no need to put a lot of effort into it, as my next postings will identify them, but I'll tease you with the fact that it contains only ONE card from 'Subset G', and the rest from D (4), H (58), I (50) and M (13)...whats it mean? Can't say for sure, but I think it identifies the 51st card of 'Subset G' which probably doesn't belong...


    
This message has been edited by nscards on Mar 1, 2017 6:19 PM


 
 
Anonymous
(Login rhettmyeakley)

Re: NSB "N" - Nineteenth Century Tobacco Sets...can you help?

March 1 2017, 6:09 PM 

Interesting observation on the Admiral USN 1886 card. It makes you wonder if perhaps it was produced with the Series M French Army 1886 cards and should be included with those cards? The non decorations from Series M total 15 I think so maybe there were 16 made? 51 always seemed like a strange number for Series G unless we are dealing with multiples of 17. Interesting.

 
 
Chris Watson
(Login nscards)

Re: NSB "N" - Nineteenth Century Tobacco Sets...can you help?

March 1 2017, 6:56 PM 

Rhett...you got it...studying that banner (it's what you do when there's ugly winter weather), started because of all of the "banner cut" cards that I saw on eBay, and I thought there might be some images on it that weren't actually issued...turns out that the only four were the 'Subset M' State Seals that had...ta-dah....gold backgrounds.

Here's another subset with the aforementioned back "anomalies"... I present it here, because I want to point out how the similarities to 'Subset E' cards. Neither have any images used on the banner. You might also start to get that same feeling that I got when I realized only five cards had a unique back...seems that would likely mean that they were the only cards printed on a sheet, with the same (unique) back "applied" to it. Since I've already mentioned that the first three subsets seemed to have numbers on the front that lead to the supposition that they were printed in groups of ten, perhaps each of these five "vertical" cards printed in double rows, or something...if anybody has miscut cards from this subset that might add credence to this theory, please speak up.



Subset L
50 unnumbered cards
[linked image]
[linked image]
This series depicts soldiers from Austria, Bulgaria, Germany, Hungary, Prussia and Russia. It is the only series that identifies specific individuals by name. The majority have plain backgrounds, but fifteen have a pastel background scene. Printed on glossy white stock, forty-five cards have a type D1 back, while five of the “pastel background” cards have a D2 back that is printed in unique vertical format in black ink. In addtion to the glossy white card stock, this subset has several characteristics that suggest it was printed around the time of ‘Subset E’, including the fact that both have identical appearing front text that is in the same sans serif font in a dedicated space at card bottom. (ACC# N224-12)

CHECKLIST: [ABC assigned card number]
Plain Background - Type D1 Backs:
(1) Artillery - Austria-1886. [289]
(2) Artillery - Prussia-1840. [502]
(3) Bavarian Infantry - Germany-1880 [416]
(4) Blue Prussian Uhlan - Germany- 1886. [419]
(5) Cavalry-Dragoons - Germany-1886 [420]
(6) Circassian Imperial Body Guard - Russia-1886. [510]
(7) Cuirassier - Austria-1850. [290]
(8) Drum Major - Austria-1886. [292]
(9) Drum Major - Prussia-1840. [503]
(10) Field Marshal - Austria- 1886./Emperor Francis Josef [293]
(11) Field Marshal - Germany- 1886./Count V. Moltke. [422]
(12) Gendarme - Austria-1850 [294]
(13) General - Bulgaria-1885./Prince Alexander I [310]
(14) General of Artillery - Austria-1854. [296]
(15) General of Bavarian Infantry - Germany-1886. [424]
(16) General of Infantry. - Russia- 1886./Czar Alexander III [514]
(17) General of Pomeranian Cuirassiers - Germany-1886./Prince Otto V. Bismarck. [426]
(18) General of White Cuirassiers - Germany-1886./Crown Prince Friedrich [427]
(19) General-Infantry of the Guard - Germany-1886/Emperor William. [425]
(20) Grenadier of The Guard - Germany-1886 [428]
(21) Hussar of the Line - Austro- Hungary-1886 [306]
(22) Infantry - Prussia-1840. [504]
(23) Mounted Grenadier of the Guard - Russia-1886 [517]
(24) Officer Cossacks of the Don - Russia-1886 [518]
(25) Officer of Infantry - Russia-1886. [519]
(26) Palace Guard - Russia-1886 [520]
(27) Prussian Hussar-Red Prince Uniform - Germany- 1886./Prince of Wales [434]
(28) Prussian Uhlan - Germany-1886. [435]
(29) Saxon Sharpshooter - Germany- 1880 [438]
(30) Saxon Uhlan - Germany 1880 [439]
(31) Sharp Shooter - Germany-1886. [440]
(32) Staff Sergeant - Germany-1886 [441]
(33) Trumpeter Cossack - Russia-1886. [523]
(34) Trumpeter-Cossack of the Guard - Russia-1886. [524]
(35) Tyrolese Sharp Shooter - Austria- 1854. [304]

Pastel Background - Type D1 Backs:
(36) Bavarian Palace Body Guard - Germany-1880 [418]
(37) Circassian Cavalry - Russia-1886 [511]
(38) Cossack of the Guard - Russia- 1886 [509]
(39) Cuirassier-Household Guard - Russia-1886 [512]
(40) Gendarmerie of the Guard - Russia-1886 [513]
(41) Hussar - Russia-1886 [515]
(42) Hussar of the Guard - Russia-1886 [516]
(43) Pomeranian Palace Guard - Germany-1886 [433]
(44) Sixth Regt. of the Guard - Russia- 1886 [522]
(45) White Cuirassier - Germany-1886 [442]

Pastel Background - Type D2 Backs:
(46) Gendarme of the Guard - Austria- 1850 [295]
(47) Imperial Body Guard - Austria- 1850 [299]
(48) Royal Body Guard - Austro- Hungary-1886 [307]
(49) Soldier of the Line - Hungary-1850 [460]
(50) Uhlan - Austria-1850 [305]

Thoughts?...

 
 
Anonymous
(Login egbeachley)

Re: NSB "N" - Nineteenth Century Tobacco Sets...can you help?

March 1 2017, 8:50 PM 

Too many similarities for Admiral, USN 1886 to be with another series. It's sole inclusion in the banner is better explained using Occam's Razor. Someone said "hey, we have room for one more card.....someone grab the first card from the new series we are producing"

Vertical Colored Sketches, I have the same 5. All mine are cut nicely except one looks like it may have an example of the same card next to it. Not earth-shattering news there.

 
 
 
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