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Anonymous
(Login flubadub)

Re: Topps Round Ups Short Prints

March 9 2017, 4:30 PM 

The list I have for the toughest numbers (not in any order) are #6,9,10,15,46,58,65,74. Over the years the want lists I've seen seem to verify these numbers. The funny thing is all but #8 and #70 are in the same row (8) on that sheet. Both those cards are in the list of 2nd tier harder cards #2,3,4,5,8,70.

 
 
Alan R. Moon
(Login AlanRM)

The math doesn't work!

March 9 2017, 5:26 PM 

If the only way these cards were printed is on a 110 card sheet, that means there should be 30 cards that are more common than the others. So why are there only 10 or 20 "short prints?" That doesn't make sense. Shouldn't there be 30 ultra commons and 50 uncommons?

But I think calling any cards from this set short prints is misleading. Topps probably printed millions of these cards, just like they did with all their 50s and 60 sets. So even if they printed half as many of some numbers as others, that's still millions of cards.

Right now on EBay there are 309 listings for Round Up, including 43 listings for PSA 8s. Many of the 8s are listed under $50 and one as low as $20. Raw cards from this set often sell for $1 or $2. Yes, it might take a little longer to find some of the numbers, especially in high grade, but it's an easy and cheap set to put together.

There are very few truly rare or even "tough to find" cards from the 50s. A few of the Tip Top Space cards and the Novel Candy cards qualify (and probably other candy box cards), but I can't think of any others right off the top of my head. I'm sure some of you can add to that list. You've got to go back to the 40s and 30s or earlier to really get into most "tough to find" cards.

Just my opinion of course.

Alan R. Moon


    
This message has been edited by AlanRM on Mar 9, 2017 11:37 PM


 
 
Todd Riley
(Login non-sport.com)

Re: Topps Round Ups Short Prints

March 9 2017, 6:52 PM 

I agree with Alan about the the 30 commons vs. 50 uncommons - especially if they only did one sheet.

However, I disagree that they don't impact the cards that are available. For example: Let's say you were a collector of these cards and bought a whole 24 pack box when they came out and you got 5 cards per pack in your 24 packs - so that's 120 cards out of a box. Let's assume perfect collation (for illustration) on the cards so you are going to pull an entire set of 80 cards leaving 40 dupes. So of those 40 dupes, 30 of them are going to be the double prints, leaving only 10 cards of the single print numbers. Now, let's assume a 2nd person did the same thing. Now we have 60 double prints available and only 20 single prints. Now let's do it 3 more times, so now we are up to 150 double prints and a total of 50 single prints. I chose those numbers to show that we now have exactly one each of the single prints (again assuming perfect collation) yet now we have 5 each of the double prints available in the market. These numbers will continue to escalate as more boxes are opened and people pull out a complete set for themselves. So you are getting all 30 double prints extra in every box yet it takes 5 boxes to yield an additional set of the single print cards. So you can see why these double prints can take over what cards are available in the marketplace way beyond what you would think they would.

 
 

Anonymous
(Login dsh46)

Re: Topps Round Ups Short Prints

March 10 2017, 6:54 AM 

Todd-The two 110 card half sheets theory for 1955-56 is based upon the baseball sheets and football sheets being done that way (A sheet + B sheet). It's a "probable" though for the smaller NS, not a definite, which is why I noted it in my original post. Topps continued this practice after going to standard sized sheets of course in 1957. I think of their printings of Giant or Standard Size as being done as 200 card arrays from 1952-54 (all 3 years of baseball were done this way in this size), 220 cards in 1955-56 and then 264 cards from 1957 onward. The larger sheets were cut town to the half sheets we all know and which are the only way they have survived today, with a couple exceptions. There's a smattering of baseball sets where seeing only half of a full sheet has led to incorrect SP info for decades (see 1967 Baseball for one). The pop report pattern for Round Up makes it look to me two half sheets were possible.

I suspect it had something to do with how the cards were cut and then sequenced for packaging by Topps.

 
 
Joe Marciano
(Login bvb5366)

Roundup sheet

March 11 2017, 2:30 PM 


This thread interested me so much that I purchased a 50 card sheet of Roundup cards. The sheet consists of columns E-F-G-H-A in that order. The sheet has flaws but the 10 short printed cards, located in column H all look like they are in perfect shape. There was no picture of the back because the owner had never taken it out of the packaging it was in when he received the sheet. He had purchased it in March 2007, he said, from Bill Bengen. I think it will be very interesting to see. By the time it arrives, I hope to have learned to post pictures.

 
 
tm
(Login agfav)

great thread

March 11 2017, 6:28 PM 

Even though I do not collect this set, I think this thread is great. All of the different "experts"
are giving their opinions. I can't say names because of so many, but I thank you all, it turns into
a real learning experience about Topps, etc. I love it when all of the guys that really "know" non-
sports cards join in. Once again, Thank you. tm

Well, thanks to Dan & his great Gallery of Cards, I found out that I have the "Buffalo Bill Set" of
these cards & because of all of you posting I now know some info about this set.


On Ebay 13 out of 15 cards for sale are of Buffalo Bill. Does that mean they printed extra "Bill" cards
because he was so popular? Just kidding!!! Have a nice evening men. tm


    
This message has been edited by agfav on Mar 11, 2017 7:22 PM


 
 
Amit Benyovits
(Login docsdrillers)

Love this thread

March 11 2017, 7:36 PM 


Joe

On the previous page Mark posted a layout of a sheet yet your sheet doesn't match that layout.

I'm relatively new to 1950's cards and wonder is it normal to have two different sheet layouts per set?

For those that did the math on the commons vs uncommons how does this new info affect your theories and help decide which are the real Short Prints.

Amit

 
 
Joe Marciano
(Login bvb5366)

Roundup sheet

March 11 2017, 8:44 PM 

Amit:
As I said, got interested in the set because of this thread. I did not even have a type card. I do not know why I did not know about this set because I had started some serious collecting in 1957. From 1957 I have 2 sets of Isolation Booth, a set of Robin Hood and the first series of Planes in 3 sets all made from packs. How I missed roundup I do not know as I like the subject. The seller of the sheet and I talked for about an hour. He said, he was told there was 4 or 5 different sheets printed and this was the only sheet which had the short prints on it.
The picture I have from the ebay listing shows what looks like a definite margin on the left side but the right side margin only looks as large as the spaces between each column. You can look at the original listing at item 112301725272 on ebay. The seller stands by the information he placed in the listing although he said that the actual number of different sheets was actually only 4 or 5. In spite of the fact that there are damages to the sheet, I think this is something worth framing.

 
 
Amit
(Login docsdrillers)

Ebay listing number

March 12 2017, 9:07 AM 


Joe
I tried locating that listing with you ebay item number but nothing comes up.

Could you please recheck the number or perhaps send me link to drillers at rogers dot com.

Did you look at Mark's posting of the layout of a sheet..that one also had the Short Prints and clearly your half sheet couldn't have come from that layout.
thanks
Amit

 
 
Joe Marciano
(Login bvb5366)

Roundup sheet

March 12 2017, 9:51 AM 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/112301725272?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Amit:
I do not know how to put in a link. However, the above is what I got when I went to the page and copied the item title. You might try looking up "1956 Topps Round-up Rare 50 card Uncut Sheet" and see if that gets you there.
I did see the sheet layout that was posted in the thread. It was the way I was able to figure out which columns it contained. If you are unsuccessful with the info above I will get someone in the house to show me how to copy links so let me know.

Hey Amit, when I went to preview this message before posting I saw that the thing above is the link and it will get you there.

 
 
Amit Benyovits
(Login docsdrillers)

Got It

March 12 2017, 10:47 AM 

Joe

This brings up one of ebays greatest mysteries and i'm not referring to the wonderful sheet you bought.

Things remain hidden at certain times on ebay....i can't tell you the number of time s a buddy gives me an item number which yields no results...i just don't get it!!

I found your sheet by going to your link but then when i searched for it by item number or by description or seller nothing comes up on ebay.ca.

So i tried the advance search on ebay.com and found the seller but this item still remained hidden.

A couple of my customers told me that when they do a search by seller on ebay.ca i show no items and they could only find me on ebay.com.

Spoke to ebay and told them about this issue as i'm paying for a store but i never heard anything back as to a remedy.

Now on to your sheet...If as the seller says there were 6 sheets and only one sheet contained the short prints then they are truly extremely short printed.

In light of this new info from your seller can Mark and others please explain/comment on the layout shown by Mark which has the SP's too....and on the veracity of this new info.

Mark,where did you come by the info for the layout you provided?

Amit

 
 

Anonymous
(Login dsh46)

Re: Topps Round Ups Short Prints

March 12 2017, 11:03 AM 

I think when eBay searches or completed auction links don't point to the right auction, you have to change a setting to Worldwide or something similar. Not positive, I just recall seeing that.

The 50 card uncut sheet seller is engaging in hyperbole. Unless he has six different 110 card half sheets he is full of it. As noted above, the 50 is a partial and the liberal use of CAPS and things like writing "U" instead of "you" point to a sales pitch and nothing more.

I haven't backtracked through this thread yet but if it's showing two different 110 card sheet arrays then you have likely found the sheet patterns.

It's a great partial sheet and I agree it would awesome if framed properly.


    
This message has been edited by dsh46 on Mar 12, 2017 11:19 AM


 
 
Amit Benyovits
(Login docsdrillers)

Recent sale on ebay of # 70 SP

March 12 2017, 1:59 PM 

I was shocked to see that the most recent sale of # 70 in the past week sold for 115.83 that the seller generously graded as ex++.

One would be nuts to sell a complete nrmnt+ set if selling 10-15 key cards yields way more than the what a full set would sell for.

Amit

 
 

Anonymous
(Login PSUinCT)

Psa Pop Report!

March 12 2017, 3:02 PM 

Based on the Psa Pop report. (facts)

Toughest 3 cards (nm/mt or better)

#4 2 Psa 8's
#3 3 Psa 8's
#71 3 Psa 8's

next Tier

#20 4 Psa 8's
#58 4 Psa 8's & 1 Psa 9
#15 4 Psa 8's & 2 Psa 9's


 
 
Alan Miley
(Login alanmiley)

(Facts)

March 12 2017, 3:39 PM 

Pop report indicates card submitted to PSA for grading, not cards in the population.

Need an extreme example - the latest 2016 set propably has a 0 pop. Does that mean it is scarce?

Lots of factors go into submission, including the more popular & expensive the card, the more submissions. I have given several examples of this effect in previous posts.

 
 

Dave Lemon
(Login PSUinCT)

Re: Topps Round Ups Short Prints

March 12 2017, 9:32 PM 

Mr Miley,
I don't consider myself a Myth and Legend kind of guy nor a guy that likes to hear myself talk, at least not here on this chat board.
I respectfully respect all the old timers in this non sports hobby. They have been collecting non sports cards a lot longer then I have.
I just started collecting non sports cards back in 2008. I collected sport cards prior to 2008 for over 30 years. I would have to agree that when it comes to grading cards the sports
side is a lot further down the road then non sports side. With that being said I would encourage you to keep an open mind to what we all can learn from the Psa pop report.




 
 
James Dunn
(Login spildun)

Re: Topps Round Ups Short Prints

March 12 2017, 10:12 PM 

While the PSA pop reports may have some value, in cases like this it could very well be misleading.

The PSA pop reports show that in the 1952 Look N See set, Rembrandt has about twice as many cards graded than any other non-sport card in the set. Plus there are more high-grade Rembrandts (PSA 8 or above) than a few others. We all know that this card is not more plentiful than others and has been the hardest to find in high grade. But that's why collectors kept sending them in, hoping for a great grade and payday when they know a Sir Walter Scott isn't going to have the same cash impact.

But then again, there are 2.5 times more Babe Ruth than even Rembrandt and 4 times as many Ruth as anyone else. We are not inferring that the Rembrandt was double-printed and the Ruth was quadruple-printed, are we?

Same thing with 1959 3 Stooges. Twice as many #1 Curly, #2 Moe, and #3 Larry than the other cards in the set. There were not double-printed either.

Many times the short-printed cards end up having close to the same number of grading submissions since many collectors send in one of each to be graded. Or send in the short-prints only so that they can sell them.

 
 
Alan Miley
(Login alanmiley)

Piling on?

March 12 2017, 11:21 PM 

Just to amplify the point and piling on to drive it home. Look at baseball. The most commonly graded cards in 1952 Topps are Mays and Mantle, a semi-high and a high number. It is widely understood that these series are less plentiful than, say #81-130.

Edited to add:
In terms of an open mind, I am willing to believe that it is possible that some of the other "tough 10" are as hard or harder than #58. If someone want to organize a survey, I'll contribute.


    
This message has been edited by alanmiley on Mar 12, 2017 11:54 PM


 
 

Mark -UK
(Login kurlywurly)

Re: Topps Round Ups Short Prints

March 13 2017, 8:27 AM 

Hi Amit , how goes it on the greens ...still chipping in from 60 yards .?

Amit , the work on the sheet was compiled ( not by me as i don't grasp the theories of sp or overprints ) a while back , at least 2009 . I seem to remember in the e-mails a mention of a 2 sheet theory but will have to trawl back through my mails from that time to find it and believe me i have a lot oif e-mails .

Will get back here when i dig it up .

Joe , looking forward to seeing the sheet , well done on the pick up .

ps....
I would put #3 as a tough card to get in acceptable condition ( clean and sharp) .

 
 
 
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