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Davy Crockett orange back cards

May 19 2017 at 2:10 PM
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Ken Bush  (Login KenBush)

Every collector knows of the two different Davy Crockett orange back cards. The NSB calls them
gray stock or white stock. But what about the third type, which I call the bright orange cards?
I have had only one of these for a few years, but in the group shown in my May pickups post I got
two more of them. Have these cards been discussed before? Does anyone else have some of
these cards? How scarce or rare are they?
Ken
[IMG][linked image][/IMG]

 
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AuthorReply
Frank Evanov
(Login eagle147)

Davy

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May 19 2017, 4:19 PM 

Ken, to my knowledge, there are three different Crockett backs. I would call the #5 back "gray", the #80 back "tan" and the others "white". The "whites" seem a bit glossy. I've read that the "tans" or "whites" may come from Canada, but I've never seen any solid evidence of that. Our own David Hornish's excellent Topps Guide (much better than NSB for Topps cards) states that back variations reflect a later print run.

Bottom line: three different backs, but no premium in price for "white" or "tan".
Frank

 
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Charley Ramone
(Login oldbubblegum)

Re: Davy Crockett orange back cards

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May 19 2017, 4:27 PM 

Hi Ken, long time...

What you call "bright orange" I always called them " cream" or "Orange cream backs" .

For sure makes the Orange pop out.

I'm no DC expert but I have gone through tons of these crockett cards over time and the "cream" or "bright orange" type seem harder to come across...I had a a good run of them and at 1 time was going to attempt an entire set in addition to the 2 sets I had...never happened...I since sold all of the "cream" ones on ebay a few years back.

Heck, I'm not even sure if the entire set can be had in "cream" / " bright orange".??

I recall a fellow board member was a buyer as well as another known collector dealer....so I do know there is an interest in this variation......but the prices realized were a little more but not really premium ..which leads me to believe they are scarce but not rare.

Just my personal experience.


I think BB is the man to ask.
(opens door for the King of the '50's )




CR


" Showin the love since 1968 "

 
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Charley Ramone
(Login oldbubblegum)

Re: Davy Crockett orange back cards

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May 19 2017, 4:31 PM 

Well, it looks as though Frank beat me to the punch as I was responding.

I would think Frank & Bill would be the final authority on this set. Did not know of the Later print run via Dave H works.

Learn something new everyday!


CR



" Showin the love since 1968 "

 
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Dave H0rnish
(Login dsh46)

Re: Davy Crockett orange back cards

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May 19 2017, 6:39 PM 

The brighter the stock, the earlier the run in many cases. I think Topps used "dingier" (i.e. cheaper") stock as a series went on for many vintage sets. You can see it in so many Topps sets, where some cards look clean with bright white areas on their backs while others look horribly toned; it's usually due to two grades of stock being used. Sometimes it would be random, dependent upon the printer's available stock

 
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tony fryer
(Login thescooper)

Re: Davy Crockett orange back cards

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May 19 2017, 7:07 PM 

I have been trying to put all 3 coloured ( English spelling from an Englishman)sets together for ever, slowed right down these last few years but picking away at them.

 
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Anonymous
(Login sthoemke)

Re: Davy Crockett orange back cards

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May 19 2017, 7:29 PM 

Doesn't look like the card stock is a factor for the white backs.

I think it is more likely that they changed to a brighter (or duller) orange ink partway through the print run.

 
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Dave H0rnish
(Login dsh46)

Re: Davy Crockett orange back cards

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May 20 2017, 11:15 AM 

I had to go back and look at my notes-definitely have gray coming first. Generally, my experience is that the cards with brilliant whites still on the back were printed on a better stock but looking at your bottom three examples it looks like the toning is only on the borders and the text box is a lot whiter. Is that right or is it just how the scans came out? I want to see if any of my other Topps cards of the 50's do this, might have to rethink things a bit if they do. When I did the book I tried to make sure I could find at least two different sources and see I had referred to Wrappers #186 and 187 in my research, among other resources, so it may be worth revisiting the Crockett articles in those issues.

I've noticed the toning issue on quite a few of their baseball sets. I'm going thru my 67's right now to make an upgrade checklist for the National and the toned stock on some is very noticeable. I first noticed this on the 1951 Red Backs and it's intrigued me since.

I have a print order from Topps for the early 70's and it shows Topps supplied the stock to Zabel Brothers for printing:http://toppsarchives.blogspot.com/search/label/Zabel%20Brothers%20Lithographers

So it's not the printer but Topps supplying the cardboard. I'm getting old, I can't always keep this stuff straight anymore........ sad.gif ....it is interesting how much things can vary in one series of one set.



    
This message has been edited by dsh46 on May 20, 2017 11:37 AM


 
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Anonymous
(Login bvb5366)

Davy Crockett Orange Backs

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May 20 2017, 1:32 PM 

I do not know if anyone has noticed but there is a set of these cards on PSA, number 17 on their list, which is called the only orange/tan back set on the PSA list.

A few months ago I was speaking with someone about the different backs. As we spoke on the phone he had me go to a lot of the DCOB cards that was on ebay. The seller has also posted the backs, so these cards were used to give me a 15 minute lesson the DCOB cards printings. The lot included cards of all three types and with coaching, I was able to pick out the different types although the backs were a little fuzzy and sometimes gray and tan are hard to distinguish.

The gentleman I was talking to said that his information was that the first printing of the cards, about 80% of the run, were on the gray paper. The second printing, about 15% of what is available, were printed on tan stock. The last cards were the white back and they came out so late that he heard that much of the run never was sent out. It is an interesting story and seems to fit what has been said previously in this thread. Who knows?

 
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Frank Evanov
(Login eagle147)

Sounds good

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May 20 2017, 2:23 PM 

That account is interesting and seems logical.

In terms of PSA graded sets, Tony Cino owns that supposed "tan" back Registry set. AND note that PSA does not distinguish Orange back variations when they slab them.
Frank


    
This message has been edited by eagle147 on May 20, 2017 2:24 PM


 
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Anonymous
(Login bvb5366)

Davy Crockett Orange Backs

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May 20 2017, 6:06 PM 

Frank:
Do you know Tony Cimo? I am curious why you would call the set he has on the Registry a "supposed" orange/tan back set? I looked at his listing and all of the cards, except 1 I think, have a comment that the card has a tan back. I know that PSA does not comment on the color of the card backs but I cannot imagine why someone would lie about something that would be so easy to confirm or deny if challenged. Also, why would someone put up a comparatively low graded set like this on the registry if it was not special in some way.

In following this board I have noticed a number of complaints from members who feel that PSA ignores back differences on some sets and, if I remember rightly, at the same time they recognize them for other sets. Those sets are, as I remember, mostly older sets and the differences lie in what is printed on the back. It seems that some cards with certain back features are much more scarce. This makes them harder to obtain and adds, for the collector, value and usually cost.

If you find the printing figures I mentioned for the DCOB card colors to be reasonable, that gives the these cards a legitimate difference without, because of the refusal of PSA to recognize that difference, a distinction. From a card collectors point of view, I cannot see the lack of distinction by the PSA as negating the real collecting questions of scarcity and value differences for the different card colors. Assuming no other varieties (beside back color) exist, a master set of DCOB cards would consist of 240 cards- a complete set of each color. Again, if you agree the printing figures given before, that produce a scarcity ratio of 16-3-1. Good luck to any completest collectors who collect DCOB cards. You have a big challenge.

 
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Anonymous
(Login flubadub)

Re: Davy Crockett orange back cards

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May 20 2017, 7:26 PM 

All these theories are interesting but if you cite PSA as a resource for information on non sports cards you believe in the tooth fairy.

 
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Frank Evanov
(Login eagle147)

Mr. Anonymous

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May 20 2017, 8:44 PM 

"Frank:
Do you know Tony Cimo? I am curious why you would call the set he has on the Registry a "supposed" orange/tan back set? I looked at his listing and all of the cards, except 1 I think, have a comment that the card has a tan back. I know that PSA does not comment on the color of the card backs but I cannot imagine why someone would lie about something that would be so easy to confirm or deny if challenged. Also, why would someone put up a comparatively low graded set like this on the registry if it was not special in some way."

Mr. Anonymous...First of all it's Cino. I know Tony and I have dealt with him many times. I have no beef with him. I never accused him of lying. My point was that since PSA does not recognize colored back variations in this set, there really can be no official tan back set. Tony is retired with plenty of free time on his hands. He could easily post back scans of the cards in this set, but he has chosen not to do that. Perhaps he's calling some gray or white cards tan and he's mistaken. I don't know. Nor do I care.
Frank

 
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Anonymous
(Login scaryclown)

Re: Davy Crockett orange back cards

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May 21 2017, 12:43 AM 

Hi Frank, what does Tony Cino or Time have to do with the question at hand?

 
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Frank Evanov
(Login eagle147)

Tony C.

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May 21 2017, 1:57 AM 

See the posts made by Anonymous
(Login bvb5366)

He brought Cino into the mix.
Frank

 
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BIll Bengen
(Login billbengen)

My opinion

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May 21 2017, 10:42 PM 

Hi all,

For what it's worth, I have always held that Topps, for some unknown reason, used three different card stocks to produce the first Davy Crockett card series: a grey stock, a tan stock, and a whitish stock. The appearance of the backs reflected the application of the same ink to the different card stocks. I saw no reason for Topps to experiment with their ink, but I could imagine reasons they might change card stock, such as shortages.

However, I have no documentation to support this. I don't place much of a premium on the two brighter backs, as I don't remember them from childhood collecting days. As a result, they always appear a bit strange to me. although I don't criticize anyone who wants to collect them. My primary DC set consists of all grey-backed stock, while my "Superset", which blends the green and orange backs, has all three varieties in it.

Is anyone aware of green-backed Crockett cards printed on other than grey stock? Now, that would be a find!

Best in collecting,

Bill Bengen

 
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Ken Bush
(Login KenBush)

Re: Davy Crockett orange back cards

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May 22 2017, 3:51 PM 

Thanks to all who responded to my post, with information on these cards. I believe the three
different card stocks does account for the three types. Why it was done we will probably never
know. Although I have never actively sough out the bright orange cards I believe that they are
quite scarce. In checking a few hundred orange back cards that I have had or seen, I only had
2 of them. With the addition of 2 cards that were in the 93 cards that I posted in the May pickups,
I now have a total of 4 out of several hundred cards. It may be that I just have not been in the right
place at the right time.
Nobody posted that they collected them or how many they had. I am sure that all of the cards
in the set were printed on the white stock, creating the bright orange cards, but as of now my
check list is cards number 14,18,46 and 60.
Ken

 
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Joe Marciano
(Login bvb5366)

Davy Crockett Orange Back Cards

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May 22 2017, 5:30 PM 

Ken:
If you wish to contact me, I might be able to put you in contact with someone who might be able to give you more information about the "white back" DCOB cards. He says he knows people with complete "white back" sets. Email me at bvb5366@Hotmail.com if you wish to so. Joe Marciano- (otherwise known as Mr. Anonymous.)

 
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Todd Riley
(Login non-sport.com)

Re: Davy Crockett orange back cards

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May 22 2017, 6:07 PM 

Ken,
I am working on all 3 backs (I bet everyone is surprised!). The white backs are by far the scarcest. However, not many people care so prices remain pretty much the same. I have managed over the years to acquire 21 different and I take them in any condition I find them in. (the tan backs I have managed to find 55 diff so far)

Of the same ink printed on different stocks I still need a little convincing on. For example, here are 3. Which version is the one in the middle?

[linked image]

 
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Frank Evanov
(Login eagle147)

Tan??

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May 22 2017, 7:40 PM 

Todd, that's my whole point about a "complete" tan set. It's not an easy call. I would call the middle card tan.

Frank

 
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