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Sweetspot as Shaft Runs on Rail

March 28 2004 at 10:44 AM
sjp  (no login)
from IP address 217.44.246.24

Hi,

A very interesting technical discussion and site for which many thanks.

I find intuitions about movement in 3-D very difficult, but I'm not convinced by what you say in your recent dialogue with Tigersimmo. It may be that I don't know what is meant by a rail? I am assuming there is a rail that is off the ground, parallel to the line of the putt, inside that line, on which the putter shaft could rest while making a stroke (either on top of or under the rail).

In this set up, then if the putter-shaft stays on the rail, and the putter moves higher off the ground in the back stroke, then the putter head must move inside the line of the put - surely? As the putter head moves higher, it necessarily moves closer to the rail and therefore further inside the line of the put.

My misunderstanding must be the same as that of the poster Tigersimmo.

Best wishes,

SJP


    
This message has been edited by aceputt from IP address 172.160.140.208 on Mar 29, 2004 9:00 AM
This message has been edited by aceputt from IP address 172.160.140.208 on Mar 29, 2004 8:54 AM


 
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Tigersimmo
(Login tigersimmo)
138.130.231.242

It's the perfectstroke.org

March 29 2004, 6:21 AM 

Dear SJP,

If you check the post down the list entitled: "perfectstroke.org please review" - you can see what we're talking about. The rail is indeed off the ground.

I agree with you about the sweetspot moving inside the target line if the putter-shaft remains in contact with the rail and I'm trying to understand what Geoff is trying to get at... needs more correspondence.

Cheers
Tigersimmo

TIGERSIMMO

 
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(no login)
172.160.140.208

Plumb Bob it to See - Sweetspot Stays On Line

March 29 2004, 8:33 AM 

Dear Tigersimmo and SJP,

Fantastic question!! You're right! And this is how we learn something new and useful.

But this only means that stroke plane trainers don't work correctly at the far margins of the stroke, as the vertical shoulder stroke really does stay out over the line, without any manipulation.

Let's put the question in two ways:

The first question is whether the sweetspot of the putter stays directly above the line in a vertical shoulder stroke. Yes, it does.

To see this, tie a short piece of string on the end of a straight stick or the butt end of a putter and hang a small weight off the string. Setup over a line on the floor with the end of the stick on the line and then make a vertical shoulder stroke. At the top of the backstroke, the end of the stick will still be directly above the line of the putt, as indicated by the "plumb bob" string hanging beneath the end of the stick hovering on the line.

The second question is whether the shaft or stick in the above stroke stays in constant contact with an infinitely long rail 5 inches above the ground. No. Only a vertical shaft would do that. Any tilt angle in the shaft will result in the shaft separating from the rail vertically going back, but this separation does not result from anything other than moving the shoulders vertically in plane.

So what should a stroke trainer look like for a vertical shoulder stroke? Apparently, the angle of the shaft causes each point along the shaft to describe a vertical arc offset from the putt line and parallel to it. Just as the putter head arcs vertically in a "smile" above the line at all times, so each and every point along the shaft of the putter describes a similar "smile" oriented vertically to the ground offset back from the putt line. This series of "smiles" stacked one after another from the handle to the putter head makes a cone shape altogether, as the twirling of any straight line in a circle to which is attached an angled line, by twirling the straight line at their apex, makes a cone. In this case, the "line" that is twirled at the apex is the horizontal line out from the pivot at the base of the neck, and the pivot is twirled about its horizontal axis as the shoulders move vertically. The angled line attached at the apex at the pivot is the line from the pivot to the putter head (not really the shaft, unless the arms shold the shaft stuck straight away from the chest with arms matching shaft exactly). The interesting point is that whatever spot on the shaft is initially in contact with the rail, this same spot remains vertically above the rail at all points in a straight stroke.

If the two lines (pivot out horizontally and pivot to putter head) make a 90-degree angle, the shaft is vertical and stays in constant touch with the rail as different spot on the shaft slide over the rail and the putter head rises up to the rail. The putter head rises more in this stroke for the same shoulder action than in any angle of the putter and the side-to-side sweep of this stroke is larger than a stroke at any other shaft tilt. (Unless the arms and hands can be bent out a little past the feet and down to get this shaft angle, this 90-degree shaft is not at all normal, and in any event would result in the heel being off the ground by at least 10 degrees.) As the angle becomes progressively more acute (less than 90), raising the shaft on a tilt incrementally until it is horizontal and matches the axis line out from the pivot (where the apex angle would be 0), the shape of the "smile" above the rail gets progressively flattened up and down and shortened side to side. Once the shaft angle matches the stroke axis horizontally out of the pivot, the "smile" is so short it disappears, and the up-down rising is so small it disappears as well, resulting in the putter head simply twisting in place.

In order for the spot on the shaft NOT to rise vertically above the straight rail when the shaft angle is tilted across the rail, but for the same spot (only) to remain in contact with the straight rail as the shaft glides back, the dipping down and back of the shoulder is not enough to keep the spot headed away from the feet along the rail, so some extra extension is required in just the right amount to make up the difference as the stroke gets further back. Without this just-right extension, the spot where the rail touches the shaft gets closer to the putter head, so the putter head and the sweetspot in this sort of stroke is coming inside on the backstroke.

Consequently, in a vertical shoulder stroke, the "rail" ought to look like a "smile" oriented vertically to the ground, parallel to the putt line but offset back a little. That's very interesting. The EXACT shape of the "smile-rail" would depend solely upon the offset distance from the putter head to where the shaft touches the "smile-rail" and not on the golfer's setup or even the angle of the putter shaft (which is really set by the putter head-rail offset horizontally). In this sense, creating a "smile-rail" shape tailored for any specific golfer and setup and putter is the same problem the Putting Arc people have in making the shape of the horizontally curved face of their training aid just right. That makes perfect sense.

Looking anew at what the "straight-rail" stroke trainers are teaching for a stroke pattern, even running the shaft straight along the rail teaches a stroke pattern in which the putter head comes inside off the line. This brings it down to whether you want to train a stroke "as if" running on an elevated rail or "in fact" that moves the putter head back and forth on a line.

I guess that's why I'm sceptical about training aids! It's not hard to move a putter straight back, so why make it tougher by trying to mold a stroke motion to a rail when that doesn't really help?

This is a very good day for putting, because we are really onto something here!

Contradictions and paradoxes are the soul of scientific advance!

Cheers!

Geoff Mangum
Putting Theorist and Instructor
Geoff Mangum's PuttingZone
http://puttingzone.com
Golf's most advanced and comprehensive putting instruction.

Over 620,000 visits and growing strong ...

518 Woodlawn Ave
Greensboro NC 27401
336.230.0612 home
336.402.1602 cell

 
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sjp
(no login)
217.44.246.2

Re: Plumb Bob it to See - Sweetspot Stays On Line

March 29 2004, 10:08 AM 

Many thanks for this enthusiastic response! And thanks to Tigersimmo too.

I now both agree and understand (I hope - these intuitions are still tricky!). Perhaps an easier way of seeing that the putter head can remain on line with a vertical-plane shoulder stroke is to put with the far edge of the putter head touching a flat, vertical wall? Of course this requires keeping the putter head square to the line, as well as the line of the stroke staying on the line of the putt. (Seems to me that a movable wall would therefore make a much better training aid for the stroke you advocate, provided a way could be found to make it smoothly abut the ground/green?)

Thanks again.

SJP

 
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(no login)
141.168.123.154

Short and Sweet

March 29 2004, 8:25 PM 

Hi Geoff
The difficulty of understanding the 3 dimensions of the vertical versus tilted stroke continues to baffle most golfers.
Therefore, if you had to summarise in a few short words or sentences, the superiority of using a vertical stroke compared to a tilted stroke, what would you say.
For example, the putterbade in the vertical stroke is always 90 degrees to the putt line(aimline).
Kind regards
Neville
Oz

 
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(Premier Login aceputt)
Forum Owner
24.163.20.76

Three Main Reasons

March 31 2004, 11:20 AM 

Dear Neville,

I believe the vertical shoulder stroke is generally superior to the tilted shoulder stroke because it is easier to peform consistently and accurately due to the ever-available body and visual cues as to where and how to make the shoulder movement, and because it minimizes the adverse effect of variability or lack of precision and consistency in the setup and ball position, and because it results in the straightest and squarest presentation of the putter face through impact and beyond for at least 5-6 inches down the line.

Cheers!

Geoff Mangum
Putting Theorist and Instructor
PuttingZone.com
http://puttingzone.com>
Golf's most advanced and comprehensive putting instruction.

Over 625,000 visits and growing strong ...

 
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(no login)
144.136.252.229

Is ball position another reason for superiority?

April 6 2004, 9:28 AM 

Hi Geoff
In reading your response to Joey Hamilton, Vice President, The Putting Arc, you state "finally the tilted planar motion brings ball position critically into the technique when it need not be a concern" as compared to the vertical stroke. Is this because the sweet spot of the putter (I don't understand the meaning of the sweet spot trajectory of the 3D smile) in a tilted stroke is only vertically over the puttline line at the very bottom of the stroke? My understanding then, if the ball is positioned 2 inches in front of your sternum line, and you ground your putter on your sternum line (the big gap), there will be a tendency for the ball to head inside as the face of the putter will be slightly closed by the time it impacts the ball. Is this right?
Kind regards and still trying to learn and understand so I can explain to others.
Neville
Oz

 
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(no login)
172.130.65.115

Tilted Plane Arcing Stroke Makes Ball Position Matter

April 6 2004, 9:40 PM 

Dear Neville,

With the tilted-plane stroke, in which the "smile" trajectory of the sweetspot is tilted off vertical, ball position matters. If the ball is ahead of the bottom of the "smile", the putter will knock it inside. If the ball is behind the bottom, the putter will knock it outside. In contrast, with the vertical-plane stroke, the "smile" is oriented vertical to the ground. This way, the ball position can be back of the bottom an inch or two or in front of the bottom 4-6 inches, and the putter will still knock the ball straight on line.

Cheers!

Geoff Mangum
Putting Theorist and Instructor

Geoff Mangum's PuttingZone

Golf's most advanced and comprehensive putting instruction.

Over 625,000 visits and growing strong ...

518 Woodlawn Ave
Greensboro NC 27401
336.230.0612 home
336.402.1602 cell



 
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