I was delighted to read you pointing out that hand position relative to shoulders has no effect on stroke path. I have never understood how Dave Peltz could have been so mis-led by his robot as to suggest that hands must be vertically below shoulders to achieve a straight stroke path. In both his putting books he argues for a strong causal link between hand position and stroke path that seems to me obviously wrong and I was glad to see my reasoning confirmed here.

However, I don't really understand why you advocate having elbows directly below the shoulders (which in turn leads you to suggest very short and very upright putters - as does Peltz). It seems to me that allowing the arms to hang that much feels insecure, and perhaps makes them more likely to rotate or otherwise move independently of shoulders tilting. That may be just me, but in any case I can't see why bend at the elbow should be a bad thing. Am I missing something here?

I have some questions about putter design too, but they'll wait. This is a terrific site; and having practised some of your ideas I just had one of my best ever putting rounds (which may be a coincidence or a placebo effect, but in the spirit of generosity with which you run this site I'll attribute it to your wisdom).

Best,

SJP

Dear SJP,

An excellent point about the elbows. There is a little bit of mystery there in my advocating elbows hanging straight versus elbows back from this vertical relation below the shoulder sockets, so let me try to spell out my thinking a little more clearly.

First, as a matter of biomechanics, the elbows naturally hang straight below the shoulder sockets, and this is true whether you stand erect or stand bent at the hips forward as at address.

Second, this "natural" hanging of the elbows is without tension. Holding the elbows otherwise than vertically below the shoulder sockets (e.g., back from vertical) can only be done with muscle tension in the pectoral and upper arm muscles managing the shoulder socket - upper arm relation. This tension has to be maintained at a constant level throughout the stroke, and any relaxation results in a dropping down and in of the putter head, which is akin to a cut stroke. Also, this tension draws attention or focus away from the manner of moving the shoulder sockets by clouding the somatic perception of distinct body parts near the shoulder. The more clear and distinct the sense of the shoulder socket on the lead side separate from the surrounding tissue (e.g., muscle mass), the clearer and more accurate the moving of the socket straight down. The body image we all carry around inside us is not terribly distinct to start with, and it takes a little internal focus to isolate a body part like a shoulder socket. If the shoulder region is tight as a broad area involving pecs and upper arm and perhaps back muscles, the distinct sense of the socket loses out significantly and so does the direction it needs to move. There is also a tendency to focus on the tight area and then to USE those muscles to generate the movement. The right muscles for the shoulder stroke are those in the lower abdomen and lower back, and the whole upper body, shoulders, arms, and all should remain nice and relaxed when being moved by these trunk-to-lower body connecting muscles in the gut. This is not to say one cannot move the shoulder accurately when there is tension in the area, but I am saying that it is better without this tension in the shoulder / pecs area.

Third, if the elbows are held back off vertical, staying close to the rib cage or sides when bending at address (instead of hanging freely vertically down below the shoulder sockets as canted slightly forward), there is an increased likelihood of pulling the putt. If the elbows are close to the sides during a rocking back and thru of the shoulder frame, rather than hanging somewhat in front and out of the way of the upper torso during the shoulder rock, there is a definite danger that the arms will move a little more than the shoulders and this will 'roll" the rear arm over the chest, causing the rear forearm to fold shut a little right during impact. In other words, it's just tougher to make a good thru-stroke with the elbows in close like that. This action also slightly encourages a gating, inside-square-inside pattern in the stroke.

Fourth, holding the elbows back off vertical at the sides -- in contrast to hanging the elbows straight below the sockets -- allows an opportunity for extending the crook in the elbows headed back and also heading thru impact. The elbow sensors to signal the brain about the opening of the elbows are not very sensitive, but are really set to sound off only when a giant suitcase is about to cause permanent harm. The point is that starting with a crooked elbow hald back off vertical is an open invitation to surreptitiously extedning the arms during the far parts of the stroke going back then thru. That wouldn't be such a bad thing except that it necessarily twists the face out of square from both the putt line and the stroke path, and also requires a little management of the length of the arms right thru impact to avoid stubbing the putter. The putter starts as low as it can get at address, and then lengthening the arms any in the backstroke is not a good plan. As the putter moves up going back, there's room for the extension, but once the stroke heads back to the ball, this "room" above the ground disappears. That's probably one reason players like Loren Roberts allow the rear wrist to flex a bit at the top of the backstroke, but then freeze this position for the balance of the stroke. In contrast, if the elbows hang relaxedly beneath the shoulder sockets (like short logs on short ropes hanging from the sockets), with the hands and forearms at a comfortable angle positioning the hands just slightly closer to the ball than the elbows and shoulders, there is still a small "crook" in the elbows but a greatly reduced tendency for the arms to extend going back or thru. The "triangle" stays intact naturally, and allows the shoulder action to define the putter head movement.

Fifth, the human body moves by moving joints and segments or body parts. Accuracy in movement is enhanced by moving one body part at another (touch your nose, touch your toes, touch your knees, put your hands on your hips, etc.). For this reason, accuracy in moving the shoulder socket straight down at the balls of the lead foot is somewhat enhanced by having the elbow joint right on this line. That allows the sense of shoving the upper arm segment straight down.

Many older pros have advocated keeping the elbows close to the sides, and particularly keeping the rear elbow planted on the rib cage just above the rear hip. This approach is a little akin to how a guitarist or violinist positions the butt of the hand against the instrument to keep accurate track of finger movements on the strings. This old lore is also closely associated with a handsy stroke style. The import of this arm positioning is to reduce the freedom of action of the arms apart from the torso and to place more control for the unified stroke action in the torso. So it's an anti-armsy feature.

Another aspect of this is that anchoring the rear elbow on the side results in keeping the hands closer to the body during the stroke. The sense then is that a smaller, more compact motion of the hands goes with the stroke, whereas having the hands farther out from the body (or lower away from the shoulders) results in a larger motion of the hands. The problem with this is that you don't want to focus on moving the hands at all -- you want to focus on moving the shoulder socket in plane. That's probably why Pelz gets confused about this -- putting the hands directly beneath the shoulder sockets allows the golfer to think he is moving the hands on a line and this in turn moves the shoulder in plane and on line, when this is backwards. The golfer ought to just move the shoulder in plane, and the hands should be ignored except as monitors of the putting tempo (in which bad tempo causes change inside the feel of the hands on the putter handle).

So, in conclusion, I don't agree that holding the elbows back off the vertical is really relaxed or more comfortable and without problems in the stroke. I would encourage you to bend forward first from the hips to get the shoulder sockets out over the balls of the feet in a balanced stance, and then to relax the shoulders and arms totally and see where the elbows end up. From this relaxed posture, putting is more accurately managed by a simply gut-based motion than sends the lead socket and upper arm straight down at the balls of the lead foot and then back. This moves the sockets in plane, and moves the elbows also in line above the feet, and keeps the movement out of the hands.

Let me know what you think.

Cheers!

Geoff Mangum
Putting Theorist and Instructor

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Geoff,

Thanks indeed for such a detailed and convincing response. All of your points are very well argued although I must say some of them seem to be based on empirical conjectures (well reasoned) for which there may be no evidence (?) For example, it's not clear to me, although it may be correct, that some mild tension in the arms makes them more likely to draw attention and thus become the focus of action. Nor does it seem to me necessarily true that a moderately bent arm is more likely to straighten than a relaxed / almost straight arm (of course a ramrod-straight arm can't straighten, but you wouldn't advocate that, I'm sure).

I think it would be possible to test these conjectures, in isolation, empirically, but I guess the real proof of the pudding is how the summary recommendation works out for putting, and your arguments are convincing enough to make that worth a shot.

Thanks again for such a generous response. I'm not going to be able to resist asking my putter-design question, but then I'll be done for a while!

Best,

SJP