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Yips and the SAM Puttlab compared to the DVPutt

January 27 2005 at 3:48 PM
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from IP address 202.27.184.1

Hi Geoff,

I have a terrible putting problem that is destroying any chance I have of holing putts consistently and I really hope you can help.

First of all - I use a straight back and through pendulum putting stroke. 9 times out of 10 when I putt I take the putter back fine but when bringing the club back to the ball, just before I contact the ball my hands do a little twitch which causes the blade to open or shut and this obviously causes pushed and pulled putts.

By the way, this only happens on the course. On the practice putting green I'm fine.

HOW CAN I STOP THIS HAPPENING ON THE COURSE??

It's killing any enjoyment from putting.

Anyway, really hope you can offer a solution.

Thanks a lot. Bob







    
This message has been edited by aceputt from IP address 24.167.140.53 on Jan 31, 2005 11:23 AM


 
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tt
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69.137.162.16

hmmm...

January 29 2005, 8:29 PM 

have you tried a belly putter?

 
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202.27.184.1

No because...

January 30 2005, 12:28 AM 

No I haven't tried anything like that because I would like to fix the real problem than trying some quick fix. I haven't always had this problem so there's a solutiobn some where!

Bob

 
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(no login)
208.46.89.243

Science and Motion

January 30 2005, 7:25 AM 

Dear Bob,

My friend Dr Christian Marquardt at Science and Motion uses an ultra-sonic putting monitor that measures 28 parameters of stroke dynamics. Dr Marquardt is the inventor and is by training and profession a research neuroscientist and engineer from Munich who has studied and treated movement difficulties of the hands for nearly twenty years now. His SAM Puttlab system is specifically designed to IDENTIFY the moment in the putting stroke when your problem occurs and then to TRAIN it out of existence. He tackles the problem head-on instead of from a roundabout way, and this is an entirely new approach for golf.

Dr Christian Marquardt, my friend and colleague:



The Puttlab system's application has been so effective as a teaching and training system that his company now teaches nearly two dozen top European PGA pros and they have opened a series of Putting Academies in Europe (Italy, France, Germany and elsewhere). Padraig Harrington, the Irish golfing star and perhaps the top putter in golf today, jumped at the chance to own the system and his putting immediately got even better, as it enabled him to identify very subtle problem-areas in his stroke and to rectify them efficiently and permanently with a deeper understanding of his stroke technique.

Dr Marquardt has had tremendous success with this in Europe, and renowned teacher Hank Haney discovered this team in Germany last year at the European PGA Teaching summit. He wrote a series of three articles about the SAM Puttlab last fal in Golf Digest (August, september, and December issues, especially the December issue). The system is the hottest new technology at the PGA Merchandise Show this year and has attracted the attention of science icon Frank Thomas, the Golf Channel, Butch Harmon, David leadbetter, Jim McLean, Todd Sones, Golfsmith, and a host of other prominent teachers and golf industry people. Dr Marquardt's Puttlab is already installed in the Hank Haney Ranch in McKinney Texas and in the David Leadbetter olf Academy at ChampionsGate here in Orlando and is currently being offered solely thru Dr Marquardt and his Science and Motion team.

I have accepted the invitation of Dr Marquardt to advise his company about making inroads into American golf with their system, so I want you to know up front that I am a strong believer in Dr Marquardt. I am thoroughly familiar with the recent Mayo Clinic sports psychology group that studied the yips but apparently have found no effective treatments of so-called "interventions." I would hope that the Mayo Clinic would make a serious investigation of the approach of Dr Marquardt and his hard-science data to back up his successes with the system.

Hopefully in the near future Dr Marquardt will be able to spend more time in America to help people in your situation. Nearly 10 percent of all golfers experience some form of this problem at various times, so there is a tremendous need for helping the amateur golfer, and not just the tour pros. I know my friend Christian feels the same way about sharing his expertise.

Cheers!

Geoff Mangum
Putting Theorist and Instructor
Geoff Mangum's PuttingZone
Golf's most advanced and comprehensive putting instruction.

Over 905,000 visits and growing strong ...

518 Woodlawn Ave
Greensboro NC 27401
(336) 340-9079 cell

geoff@puttingzone.com

AIM: puttmagic
Yahoo!IM: puttmagic
MSN IM: geoff@puttingzone.com
ICQ#: 277025051




 
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Anonymous
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68.147.23.6

Re: Science and Motion

January 30 2005, 11:17 AM 

Geoff,

Did you happen to see the DVPutting system at the PGA show? Is this unit comparable to the Sciece and Motion system?

 
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24.167.140.53

The DVPutt System vs SAM Puttlab

January 31 2005, 11:09 AM 

I have been familiar with the DVPutt system for quite a while now. I feature this system right beside the Science and Motion Puttlab on my Training Aids main page. Putting teacher Mike Shannon at Sea Island Resort and also Mike McGetrick in Colorado, among other PGA members, have adopted the DVPutt system and are very pleased with it for their purposes. In contrast, the SAM Puttlab is installeld in the Hank Haney ranch in Texas and in the David Leadbetter Golf Academy at ChampionsGate in Orlando so far in America and across Europe. So what's the difference?

The principal differences, apart from the ultrasonic high-frequency precision of the Puttlab (0.1 mm in realtime) versus the visual framespeed of the DVPutt camera (less "temporal-spatial resolution" of the motion -- i.e., less precise detail about position in the motion), seem to be three:

1. Parameters measured: 28 for SAM Puttlab vs. 8 for DVPutt;
2. Dimensions tracked: 3 for SAM Puttlab vs. 2 for DVPutt; and
3. Comparison Data: Immediate rating of individual stroke parameters against a growing composite of top player performance for that same parameter with the SAM Puttlab vs. an indicator "line" of the ideal putt path in 2-D as backdrop for a 2-D drawing or plotting of the golfer's stroke with the DVPutt and no comparison database in the system for comparisons of parameters against an expert composite model.

That's sort of like ranking a Mercedes against my Ford Taurus. I like my Ford Taurus a lot, but I'm not delusional about its ranking in the world of fine automobiles.

The DVPutt system works by pointing a special digital camera down from a tripod at the stroke zone and using software to process the imaging frames and generate a plot of the putter motion (drawings of face angle lines in succession). This is fundamentally only a 2-dimesional system. You cannot really measure and evaluate with this special camera and software the position of the putter in motion in its REAL "shape" thru the 3-dimensions of space as the ultrasonic system of the SAM Puttlab does. Specifically, the DVPutt digital camera cannot evaluate the vertical dimension of the "shape" of the stroke in the air. This parameter is extremely important for taking a look at impact dynamics as they affect roll quality and line.

DVPutt's 2-dimensional "plot" of putter trajectory thru "flat" space as seen from the camera position:



The above image represents a 2-D view (and analysis and plotting) of the stroke in the X-axis and the Y-axis, and shows no data at all in the Z-axis (up-down).

In comparison, this screenshot of the SAM Puttlab data analysis shows in the top left corner the representations of very precise Z-axis data, along with all the other X-axis and Y-axis data made possible by the high-frequency signalling EMITTED from the putter in realtime motion, not viewed by a camera with slower sampling frames per second:



This is really one whale of a difference in terms of knowing what is happening! The SAM Puttlab wins the data-gatering, analysis, and display "battle of the bands" hands-down -- no contest from a technology viewpoint, in my estimation.

I think I may be a bit biased about this, though, as I seem to be the only teacher in putting who emphasizes the vertical component of the putting stroke with such relentless insistence -- it's the "physics" basis for a straight putt! Everyone knows the left-right sideways (X axis) dimension is needed to power the ball towards the target, but it is the VERTICAL dimension (Z axis) and not the front-back or near-far dimension (Y axis) that determines the straightness of the roll AND the quality of the roll.

The vertical dimension is the upward rising of the putter head in the air back and thru in relation to the bottom of the stroke arc (middle of body usually). This point of symmetry for the back and thru parts of the vertical dimension of the stroke is really what determines ball position and solid impact, AND the more vertical component you add to the 3 dimensions of the stroke movement, along with the necessary X-axis component, the LESS Y-axis gating and face-angle changing can fit into the stroke. It is sort of like the same way that a high-loft club like a wedge puts in a lot of vertically oriented backspin that keeps the ball flight STRAIGHT not really because of the backspin itself but rather because the backspin PRECLUDES side-spin that makes the ball flight hook or slice off line.

Similarly, a straight putt is more like kicking an end-over-end fieldgoal with a football (combining X-axis power and Z-axis direction control that is straight online at all times) than it is trying to slug a pitch ONLY over the pitcher's head and ONLY over the center-field bleacher wall with a baseball bat arcing or gating around (combining X-axis power and Y-axis directional variation that goes "straight" only at one precise moment in the swing). The reason soccer-style fieldgoal kicking took hold in American football is the added POWER of that technique and the fact that the side of the foot offers better line / direction control than the toe of the foot. But this is not the case with a putter. In putting, the accrate golfer at putting is like an old-style fieldgoal kicker who has a foot wider at the toe than along the side, and who doesn't need the power anyway. So he keeps the action of the "foot" (putter) working vertically in the line he intends for the roll of the ball (X-axis only, little to no Y-axis).

Therefore, if you really want to know the "shape" of the stroke so that you can intelligently and comprehensively measure the IMPORTANT features of the motion, you are compelled to concern yourself very much with the vertical or Z-axis dimension. The SAM Puttlab shows this is exquisite detail. If you wish to take some sort of look at the vertical dmension using the DVPutt system, you have to abandon the special digital camera's capablities and the software processing of the 2-D image, reposition the camer at ground level, and switch the function of the camera to a plain-vanilla "video" mode that is bereft of computer processing and parameter monitoring. You CAN use the DVPutt to "look at" or "watch" the vertical dimension, but you cannot use it to "analyze" and "plot" and "compare" vertical parameters the way you can with the SAM Puttlab.

I don't want to sound critical of the DVPutt system -- it is a very fine tool for the normal golf school setting one finds across the country. But it simply is not on the same level as the SAM Puttlab for stroke analysis, problem identification, optimization, and teaching-learning.

The SAM Puttlab has been designed by Dr Christian Marquardt to generate and analyze sufficiently precise data to enable him to identify and address very precise moments in the stroke where problems arise. You can see this detail by the degree of jumpiness of the plots in the above Puttlab plotting of ultrasonic data from the putter itself compared to the series of face-angle lines drawn by the DVPutt camera "looking at" the putter in motion in the DVPutt picture above.

The SAM Puttlab is much more the serious-science technology.

Cheers!

Geoff Mangum
Putting Theorist and Instructor
Geoff Mangum's PuttingZone
Golf's most advanced and comprehensive putting instruction.

Over 905,000 visits and growing strong ...

518 Woodlawn Ave
Greensboro NC 27401
(336) 340-9079 cell

geoff@puttingzone.com

AIM: puttmagic
Yahoo!IM: puttmagic
MSN IM: geoff@puttingzone.com
ICQ#: 277025051


 
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202.27.184.1

Doesn't make sense

January 30 2005, 3:37 PM 

Hello Geoff,

Thanks for your response but I don't think it will help my problem. As I said, I can putt fine when I'm practicing but out on the course it all changes. So wouldn't that indicate some mental issue rather than a mechanical one?

I don't think my playing partners would be too happy if I lugged that machine out to me during a round :0)

Thanks

Bob

 
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24.167.140.53

Not Necessarily

January 31 2005, 9:54 AM 

Dear Bob,

You would think that the practice-play difference would indicate a mental cause for the yips, but nearly all research tends to show otherwise. Apparently, the presence of some extra trying or a more focused mental strategy on the course, and not simply anxiety or concern about what's at stake or making the putt or avoiding embarrassment, has a role in triggering the movement dysfunction. The lesson of recent years is that you really need to address the movement itself, and this has the by-product of removing the sort of mental strategies (how you think you need to make the stroke, by moving what parts of your body with what muscles in what manner) that prompt the nervous system into a problem of movement.

This prompting is probably related to the old way / new way problem in training, in which learning a new movement (or way of thinking about and executing a movement) is not simply getting familiar with the new pattern and practicing it -- there is also the matter of "extinguishing" the old pattern so that the old habit does not "resurface" (bad metaphor implying sort of a deepsea monster in the subconscious when it's really just a pattern in the brain set by behavior). I imagine that on-course concerns and emotions also "prompt" the old habit back to the forefront. Training the "yips" motion out of the stroke is therefore partly if not mostly training a new movement strategy that "extinguishes" the old habit.

In my judgment, it is a mistake to think of the yips as merely or predominately a psychological problem.

Cheers!

Geoff Mangum
Putting Theorist and Instructor
Geoff Mangum's PuttingZone
Golf's most advanced and comprehensive putting instruction.

Over 905,000 visits and growing strong ...

518 Woodlawn Ave
Greensboro NC 27401
(336) 340-9079 cell

geoff@puttingzone.com

AIM: puttmagic
Yahoo!IM: puttmagic
MSN IM: geoff@puttingzone.com
ICQ#: 277025051


 
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(Premier Login aceputt)
Forum Owner
24.167.140.53

Further Thoughts about a "Solution" for You

January 31 2005, 11:58 AM 

Dear Bob,

Reading back over all the above strikes me (and you as well, I imagine) as all fine and good, but I'm sure you're asking what ELSE can you do other than schedule some time with Christian Marquardt. So let me take this interim stab at your problem.

The precise timing of your stroke flinch in the overall stroke seems to be a very discrete moment in the stroke just prior to impact. This suggests that your flinch is related to anticipation of impact of the putter with the ball. The brain is probably a little too focused on what will happen to the ball once impact occurs, and this is something of a "hit" consciousness. This is the typical consciousness of golfers in general, so it is not unique to you. But in your case, this "hit" consciousness may be linked with some emotion-like concerns about what will actually happen once contact takes place. The relationship in the brain between these sorts of lurking emotional impulses and movement are not well understood or straight-forward. My educated guess is that in your case this "presence of concern" and doubt, which is really the "absence of a NON-presence of concern" -- the desired state of mind -- if you follow me) triggers a movement flinch in the neurology of your movement brain. It's like a small fumble.

If this line of thought is accurate, what you want is a lack of concern for the putter impacting the ball. You actually get that by PREFERRING and DESIRING a "hitless" stroke because you believe in your soul that a "hitless" stroke will send the ball rolling where you are aimed, and there is no concern for that. In my mind, I have no fear or concern about impact with the ball. I have a technique where I focus upon the FORM and TIMING of the stroke so that I KNOW what the impact with the ball will result in -- a straight, smooth roll with solid online-impact.

I find that almost all golfers don't really understand what about the stroke motion itself rolls the ball straight consistently. This is managing the putterface thru the impact zone so that the putter sweetspot moves square thru the center of the ball straight online as defined by the initial aim of the putterface from about 3-4 inches before impact to at least 5-6 inches past impact, however you can get this done. I just work on the form of the stroke in a simple motion pattern so that I go away from the bottom of the stroke arc in the middle of my stance and then return to this bottom with the putter coming down naturally and then transitioning to an upward pendulum motion right at the bottom and then continuing squarely down the line for at least 6 inches (and preferably farther, if you are able).

With this FORM and TIMING, what happens to the ball is KNOWN clearly -- it rolls smoothly straight where I had aimed the putter face to start with. This allows me to ignore the ball entirely, once I have a consistency in ball position slightly forward of the stroke's bottom. I watch the grass blade at the bottom of my stroke and "putt that," not the ball. I don't think about impacting the ball. Instead, I think that so long as I make the FORM and TIMING of the stroke correctly, the straight roll of the ball simply results as it should. There is nothing I want to know about impact that is not already inherent in the form and timing. I CERTAINLY don't want to concern myself with trying anything cute during impact to get the ball to roll somewhere other than straight off the putterface or straight out of my setup -- where the heck would that go?!

So my advice to you is to practice the FORM and TIMING of a stroke that will roll the ball straight, without a ball! During this process, try to rid yourself of lingering concerns about "managing" impact to "make" the ball roll to a target somewhere off to the side. Instead, view the situation as a loaded gun bolted down to a shooting table -- just pull the trigger with the stroke and forget the bullet! It will go where the rifle is aimed.

Ultimately, you want to think and feel "nothing" about impacting the ball -- once the putt is planned, the putter aimed, and the body set for the stroke, "put a quarter in and get the same old great stroke out" -- whatever happens to the ball and regardless of whether the ball finds the hole. None of that helps, and only hurts.

Cheers!

Geoff Mangum
Putting Theorist and Instructor
Geoff Mangum's PuttingZone
Golf's most advanced and comprehensive putting instruction.

Over 905,000 visits and growing strong ...

518 Woodlawn Ave
Greensboro NC 27401
(336) 340-9079 cell

geoff@puttingzone.com

AIM: puttmagic
Yahoo!IM: puttmagic
MSN IM: geoff@puttingzone.com
ICQ#: 277025051


 
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David
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64.201.174.49

Re: Further Thoughts about a "Solution" for You

January 31 2005, 12:04 PM 

do other than schedule some time with Christian Marquardt?? Is this possible? where can one do this if they wanted to?

 
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24.167.140.53

Dr Marquardt's Availability

January 31 2005, 6:41 PM 

Dear David,

I have met Dr Marquardt in the US last fall and again this past week. He was at the PGA Merchandise Show in Orlando Florida from Wednesday thru Sunday and then flew to another meeting out west. So I'm sure he'll be here in the US fairly often in the future. He has Golf Academies in Europe and perhaps he will set up some here in the US as well. Also, I would not be surprised to see major schools and universities work with him in the near future to bring him over here on special occasions.

Cheers!

Geoff Mangum
Putting Theorist and Instructor
Geoff Mangum's PuttingZone
Golf's most advanced and comprehensive putting instruction.

Over 905,000 visits and growing strong ...

518 Woodlawn Ave
Greensboro NC 27401
(336) 340-9079 cell

geoff@puttingzone.com

AIM: puttmagic
Yahoo!IM: puttmagic
MSN IM: geoff@puttingzone.com
ICQ#: 277025051


 
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(no login)
68.33.36.190

Your relationship?

February 1 2005, 11:17 AM 

Dear Geoff,

It would seem as though you have finally found some technology that you 'fully' embrace. What are some of the aspects that you like, and think would benefit the golfing world at large?

Also, how does Dr Marquardt's system complement or supplement your teachings?

Do you have plans to have the technology at one of your teaching facilities?

Any criticisms?

Finally, congratulations on being named one of the keynote presenters at this year's European Coaching and Teaching Summit.

As always, cheers,
Damon

 
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Bob
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202.27.184.1

Thanks Geoff

January 31 2005, 2:24 PM 

I think you've hit the nail on the head. This is more a trust issue.

Thanks for your help.

Bob

 
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(Login ScienceAndMotion)
217.235.196.168

Yips

February 5 2005, 2:25 PM 

Dear Bob,

I think Goeff has done a great job by explaining the true background of the Yips problem to you. Indeed, our research reveals that Yips is not a psychological problem (although it strongly seems so), nor any kind of pathological brain dysfunction. The psychological problems (like anxiety) are more the trigger for the Yips.

The Yips itself is mainly a motor strategy problem. Hard to understand, but it can even affect any golfer. There is always a conflict in executing fast but precise movments: Precision tends to focus attention to details of the movement which leads to slowing down of the movement (feedback control), whereas smooth automated movements have to be executed at a certain speed without direct conscious control (feed forward control). Here comes the problem: The underlying motor control programs are not compatible and can not be processed at the same time. Precision control - or precision execution. You have to decide. This means, the more precise you want to be to control the outcome (also unconsciously) the more the movement execution tends to be disturbed.

Our SAM PuttLab system definitely helps to train on Yips problems, because it can measure even the smallest Yips in any stroke, also in strokes where you would not recognize it. Try putting with the right hand only and feel what your hand tends to do at impact.
Treatment of Yips is quite sophisticated, I needed over a decade to really understand all the complexity of the problem. However, there are some simple tricks to cope with the problem.

1) First, you have to understand that the problem comes only from one hand (in 95 %)

2) The problem is already "programmed" before movement begin. There will be no chance to avoid Yips inside of movement execution once it is integrated in the movement plan.

3) Never fight against the Yips. Never train against the Yips.

4) The simplest way to avoid Yips is to find an appropriate "image" of your movement, which makes the Yips "superfluous". This may sound somewhat strange, but this method is very powerful. If Yips is triggered by anticipation of ball contact, then try to find a picture where there is no explicit ball contact, i.e. try to use the putter like a broom to sweep the floor.

5) Seperate precision and execution from each other. Precision before movement begin, but while execution is only rhythm. No other thought. This can be trained. As Goeff mentioned, the putter head will then whole the putt, not you.

6) Please understand, that not "you" know how to hole a putt, only your "hands" know. We are complete layman to the execution of highly complex skilled movements.

7) A simple drill: Block ball movement by putting the left foot on the ball. Make a normal putting movement. You will have an extremely stabile feeling of impact. Remember this feeling and make a normal putt. Feel the difference!

8) While training, do not try to avoid the Yips if it comes. Use the Yips then to understand the difference in your movement planning to a not yipped putt. Once you understood the mechanisms, you will be able to cope with the Yips.

I hope these tips helped you. I know that it is very hard to overcome the Yips on your own. But sometimes it works pretty well if you find the right training drills. More than that, not using inadequate training drills will prevent the problem from becoming worse and worse over time.

We will set up SAM YipsClinics also in the US, but this will take some more time. Our Yips training is a fundamental behavioural like approach. I am sure Goeff will certainly keep you up-to-date.

Best regards,
Christian

Dr. Christian Marquardt
Science&Motion GmbH
Fritz-Lange-Str. 2
D-81547 M√ľnchen
Germany
cm@scienceandmotion.de

 
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