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Body Putting?

June 11 2005 at 6:37 AM
 
from IP address 222.152.11.30

Hi Geoff - from NZ

WARNING: The following will challenge what you know to be true about putting

There are several motors available to strike the ball in putting - every assumes that the best is the arms/shoulders and the body is still - but try the method below

Body Putting - with belly putter

Big muscles of the body are active and the arms and hands are quiet.
Departs from much of what has been taught in putting, as the ‘motor’ of the putt is the body! (As such there is no arm movement across the body and the wrists also add no power).

This method is very simple and reliable, with the little room for error, but being quite different it takes some practice to feel comfortable with.

Connection to: Belly button or close.

Ball position: One inch forward of center of stance.

Putterhead path: Naturally arcs because we stand to the side of the ball and the lie angle of the shaft determines the arc path (So not at all straight back and through)

Posture: As recommended for a short putter over the years.

Grip: Right or left hand low or claw (Whatever feels most comfortable). The grip pressure should still be light, as provided the elbows remain firmly to the sides until well after impact, the wrist action will be nil.

Length of Putter (guide only): 200lb(90kg) - 6’(183cm) person will generally wish to use about a 46” belly putter.

Arms: Arms drawn up so elbows ‘locked’ (firmly) against sides of the torso, and therefore 5 to 6” of grip is usually seen bellow hands (standard one piece 21” belly putter grip).

Feel of putt: Turning action of the body, with no arm or wrist action whatsoever. For an observer the knee action is a little similar to a short chip. However there is no conscious effort to turn, or activate the knees, and both these merely happen as a result of the intention to putt the ball ( the body turn is the only motor “available’ as the hands and arms are locked out by the set up (hands by the belly connection and arms by the elbow connection.

Method also works with short putter but much better with belly - Butch Harmon calls this Knee Putting but restricts it to yippers ..........mmmm from my 2 weeks experimentation I think it may have general merit........

I am wondering whether the evolution of putting may have taken a wrong turning!

Interested in your thoughts?

Cheers Simon
http://www.pukugolf.com
http://www.bellyputter.com


    
This message has been edited by aceputt from IP address 24.167.140.53 on Jun 11, 2005 7:55 AM


 
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24.167.140.53

Whole-Body Putting -- the Upper and the Lower

June 11 2005, 8:46 AM 

Dear Simon,

This whole-body putting is interesting but not fundamentally new or different. What is happening is just integrating or coordinating the lower body with the upper body by including the hips in the motion. A good shoulder stroke does this in a different way.

I disagree with this statement you make: "Putterhead path: Naturally arcs because we stand to the side of the ball and the lie angle of the shaft determines the arc path (So not at all straight back and through)." The notion that the putter's shaft angle REQUIRES a stroke path gating or arcing around the feet is simply false. The human body is not required to move in that way simply because the hands have a putter in them, whatever the shaft angle. The body movement determines the putter path; not the other way around. Whatever the shoulders do in a shoulder stroke, without arms or hands active, the putter path will result accordingly. I see this mistaken notion usually as the main premise for people who refuse to believe the putter path can be straight, even though anyone can simply move the putter straight along a baseboard by just moving the shoulder frame vertically with a parallel alignment.

Back to body putting: Ben Crenshaw has some right knee release in his stroke dynamics, which is a result of the way he solves a certain hip problem in moving the lead shoulder vertically upward in the thrustroke. When the lead shoulder moves vertically upward but the pivot at the base of the neck remains over the same spot vertically, the rear rib cage digs down at the top of the pelvis. A "pull" results (and the lead shoulder heads back behind) when the golfer allows the rib cage to slide over the front of the hip as the lead shoulder rises. There are two ways to solve this and avoid the pull: 1) keep the rib cage headed straight onto the hip; and 2) lower the rear hip out of the way with some "give" in the rear knee.

The "knee putting" you refer to is basically the same, except the golfer does not let the shoulder frame change off level during the stroke. (Actually, Butch Harmon refers to this as "Hip" putting.) This sort of whole-body putting is just moving the hips so that the putter moves laterally, with little or no rising going back or going up.

The hips can either swivel around or can sway laterally. What you describe is a swiveling or gating action in which the hips turn back and then turn thru. Butch Harmon describes a sway or lateral straight-back and straight-thru action of the hips.

The Pivot Putter invented by my friend Karl Schmidt is basically the same sort of putting technique that you describe, except that the putter is anchored against the thigh rather than the belly. Karl's putter has teflon skids on the sole to make it slide along the ground without any rising in a gating action that pivots around the anchor point.

Another similar technique is taught by David Lee and his Gravty Golf. David has an ArcMaster putter, and he teaches a whole-body action without hands in his belief that separating power from the hands allows a sharper sense of touch or feel (whatever that is).

Personally, I view all these techniques as legitimate and experiment with them from time to time. My preference so far has stuck with conventional putting but the search for optimal technique goes on. If the USGA ever really bans belly putting, it will probably be by a rule prohibiting anchoring the putter against the body, and that will rule out the belly putter, the pivot putter, and certain forms of long putting, or at least require unanchoring.

In general, I agree that the more the whole body is involved in the stroke, the better one's distance control becomes, and potentially the more stable one's form of the stroke also becomes. In my view, this is mostly attributable to the brain and body having an "action" orientation to the world as a whole, moreso than the brain and body orients to the world one body part at a time. Thus, the deeper the putting action is rooted in the whole body, the better.

The body's center of gravity (COG) is located below the navel inward a little. In your gating knee putting technique, the COG will arc about in a smaller version that reflects the hip swiveling. Getting that shape of the COG trajectory the same putt after putt does not seem as easy to me as other putting methods. It probably depends critically on the elusive sense of "feel" in the weight shift as experienced in the knees -- too subtle for me to bet the farm on. I've tried David Lee's style quite a bit, and this always seems to be the basic problem of getting the repetitions the same -- the cues for guiding the body action are too elusive and unclear in comparison to other methods.

Golfers can do very well with certain putting techniques, provided they personally have an idiosyncratic capacity for that specific technique. But viewing the matter more broadly on behalf odf all potential golfers, the specific dependencies of a technique may be a little too precious or subtle for wholesale recommendation.

For my money, the hip putting that is lateral seems better to me than the gating swiveling hip action. The COG moves in a straight line in accord with the body's innate sense of left and right. And hip action seems better than knee action. But on balance, a vertical shoulder frame action that properly solves the upper body / lower body connection at the hips seems prefereable to lateral hip putting. I find it more difficult to move the body's center of gravity sideways in a straight line than I find moving the shoulders vertically above the balls of the feet with the center of gravity more or less stable. The shoulder action fits within the body's sense of left and right and up and down at the balls of the feet, so it is well-guided by body cues. And the COG need not wander about, as the shoulder action can be done either with a stable lower body or at worst with some Crenshaw-style knee action.

It's great that there is a style of putting that works very well, but I am pretty cautious when it coems to labelling something as optimal, or even as "better" than other styles.

Cheers!

Geoff Mangum
Putting Theorist and Instructor
Geoff Mangum's PuttingZone
http://puttingzone.com
Golf's most advanced and comprehensive putting instruction.

Over 1,060,000 visits and growing strong ...

518 Woodlawn Ave
Greensboro NC 27401
336.790.8176 home
336.340.9079 cell





 
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222.152.24.129

The World was flat until.........

June 13 2005, 5:28 AM 

Hi Geoff

Geoff : "This whole-body putting is interesting but not fundamentally new or different."

SSSSSSS I know of no player on tour using this method - do you? - Who? (a little knee give (a la Crenshaw)is not what I am talking about here Geoff

Geoff: "What is happening is just integrating or coordinating the lower body with the upper body by including the hips in the motion."

SSSSSSSSSSS sort of ..... but the lower body action is less deliberate than this - and more a result of letting it happen (compared to conventional instruction which asks us to have no lower body movement - unnatural? as the body is connected)

Geoff: "The "knee putting" you refer to is basically the same, except the golfer does not let the shoulder frame change off level during the stroke. (Actually, Butch Harmon refers to this as "Hip" putting.) This sort of whole-body putting is just moving the hips so that the putter moves laterally, with little or no rising going back or going up."

SSSSSSSSSSSS no this is not at all what I am testing Geoff - the action of the shoulders an back are the same as in Tigers stroke BUT the arms are firmly against the upper torso (substantially removing arm swing) and the belly putter connects (substantially removing wrist set/release)

Geoff: "The Pivot Putter invented by my friend Karl Schmidt is basically the same sort of putting technique that you describe, except that the putter is anchored against the thigh rather than the belly. Karl's putter has Teflon skids on the sole to make it slide along the ground without any rising in a gating action that pivots around the anchor point."

SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS No the pivot putter method is a hinge from a fixed point - quite different

Geoff; "Another similar technique is taught by David Lee and his Gravity Golf."

SSSSSSSSSSSSSS Sorry I have found no useful info on this

Geoff; "In general, I agree that the more the whole body is involved in the stroke, the better one's distance control becomes, and potentially the more stable one's form of the stroke also becomes. ....... Thus, the deeper the putting action is rooted in the whole body, the better.

SSSSSSSSSSS READ YOUR WORDS - Geoff I think you need to revisit this method - It is nothing like Crenshaw - totally different to Pivot putter and frankly the distance control is phenomenal

Geoff: "Golfers can do very well with certain putting techniques, provided they personally have an idiosyncratic capacity for that specific technique."

SSSSSSSSSSSSS This method is not idiosyncratic - Have you ever met a beginner that keeps their lower body still in the putting stroke - we have to teach them this because it is not natural!? ALSO If we turn to greet a person in a door we turn our upper body and the lower BODY follows! - This method may be the real deal!

The World was flat ...

Cheers Simon

www.pukugolf.com
www.bellyputter.com

 
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24.167.140.53

Can You Describe Style a Little More Clearly?

June 13 2005, 10:44 AM 

Dear Simon,

I'm not sure I'm understanding clearly the style you're using. As I understand it, you fix the elbows against the sides and turn the upper body back and thru with "natural" knee action similar to a chip shot.

If this is what you mean, then the whole method depends for its accuracy on management of the center of gravity (COG, below the navel inside the belly a bit) as it moves about in space turning back and thru. The trajectory of the COG in the stroke has to repeat reliably. In effect, the turning you describe is a minor weight shift, and it has to repeat accurately for the stroke to send the ball away accurately and squarely on line.

When you ask me to "read my words," I don't understand what you are saying. I was referring to the way the body is structured with a core and with limbs (legs and arms) in a distal-proximal arrangement. Legs and arms are distal; feet and hands are more distal. What I was saying is that the more distance cointrol imminates from the core (proximal), in my experience, the better it is.

David Lee and his method is not substantially different from what you describe (as I understand it), except he allows more arm freedom. His video displays him with excellent distance control also. He anchors the COG to the position of the lead foot's heel, and this is the center-pivot of the arcing motion of the body's COG in his stroke. I am guessing that your anchor-point for the symmetry of the weight shift is not all that clearly defined, and is probably more or less on the ground mid-way between the feet in your stance.

I have taught golfers trained to use David Lee's method and I have studied it and tried it out myself. Some people are pretty good at repeating this motion and others are not good, and some get it on the practice green and can't get it on the course. The dependency of this method on feeling the COG in a repeating way makes it dependent upon a talent for relating to the world in a feeling way that is not too common, and that's why I refer to it as "idiosyncratic." Some people are good at this and many are not.

When you leave unclear how the legs and knees operate in this style, and instead use the word "natural" to describe what is going on in the movement, I have to question whether you can usefully describe or teach how the movement is made so that others can do it. Whenever the word "natural" pops up in golf instruction, my experience is that this vague term is papering over a lack of real insight. I don't doubt your experience at all, just your ability to describe it. Hence, my question: can you describe what you are talking about a little more clearly?

As always,

Cheers!

Geoff Mangum
Putting Theorist and Instructor
Geoff Mangum's PuttingZone
http://puttingzone.com
Golf's most advanced and comprehensive putting instruction.

Over 1,060,000 visits and growing strong ...

518 Woodlawn Ave
Greensboro NC 27401
336.790.8176 home
336.340.9079 cell



 
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222.152.24.129

Follow on clarification

June 13 2005, 4:28 PM 

Hi GEoff

A question first - In David Lees method ther is a weight shift ?

There is NO weight shift in this "new" ? body putting I am attempting to share. THE body rotates as a RESULT of:
1 The connection to the torso sides - elbows , and the connection to the belly
2 A slight knee flew at set up - no more than usual
3 THE butting as Tiger does
4 AND the body will naturally turn as there is no other freedom of movement available - well not the arms and wrists

AS such there is no sway - tilt or weight shift - the lower body turns as aresult of teh shoulders upperback rotation (not as acause)

The chip analogy is perhaps not good as it implies this is the cause - however teh action of the knees looks a bit like a short chip - I have found it best to not think about the lower body or knees at all

Hope that makes it clearer

BTW - I agree the word natural is over used - but here it is approproiate as it is natural for the lower body to turn with a turn initiated by the upper body

IMO Another word terribly overused, by OEMS especially, is the word feel!

Cheers

Simon

In the next week or two I will create a small video file and post a link

 
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222.152.24.129

Whoops should have proof read the previous post!

June 13 2005, 4:29 PM 

Whoops should have proof read teh previous post!

 
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