Hello,

What is the current thinking on the point of impact to produce the best roll will say a typical 4 degree lofted putter? I have noticed for me that making the impact point higher on the golf ball seems to produce less skid and it also seems if the ball also comes off the putter face at a higher speed. I assume there will be variable success for different people depending on individual stroke characteristics. I have heard others mention they thought they putt best while trying to make impact higher on the golf ball.

Thanks

Norman Lindsay at Lindsay Putters says that a low center of gravity (and a recessed COG) plus impact high on a minimally lofted face reduces backspin and promotes overspin. Actually, he says that the impact point has to be higher than the COG, not higher than the center of the putter face.

The folks at Aserta Putters believe in a high center of gravity, but don't talk specifically about impact point.

A forward press usually results in less loft and a higher impact point on the face. dave Stockton Jr. has tested at a phenomenal overspin rate, and he uses a forward press.

Harold Swash teaches a small forward press and a hit upward with the putter delivering a "tangential" blow high on the back of the ball and high on the putter face.

I teach a neutral address position without a forward press, using minimal loft, and no specific effort to make impact other than what occurs naturally when the stroke bottoms out in the middle of the body and rises into the back of the ball. This stroke seems to deliver impact a little low on the face, but the slow tempo and "hitless" stroke still rolls the ball just fine. So I don't see a great benefit from a lot of effort to "improve" the roll or reduce the backspin -- the neutral, mild-tempo stroke works good enough for the roll and better for the line and distance.

In general, the rule of "fry the biggest fish" applies. To me, the payoff is bigger for a straighter stroke with good touch than it is for a questionable improvement in roll at the expense of hand manipulation or specific impact dynamics while the stroke is in its critical phase. I'd rather worry about "straight" than about "true roll."

Cheers!

Geoff Mangum
Putting Theorist and Instructor
Geoff Mangum's PuttingZone
http://puttingzone.com
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Thanks Geoff for the response. Interesting how the schools of thought vary among some of the better know putting theorists. At this time, I would say there is noticeably more efficiency with hitting the golf ball at a higher impact point than I originally imagined. This efficiency (distance traveled for a certain length of stroke) is likely a result of the better roll. I can also hear the sound of better role right off the putter face when using my LinksPutt putting green.

A little confusing to me though is you indicate Harold promotes a high impact point on the back of the ball but also high on the putter face. I am not clear how that is achievable as it seems that hitting the high point on the back of the golf ball would occur by striking the lower portion of the putter face.

Dear David,

Harold says:

"Thirdly, contact with the ball must be with a slight upstroke. This not to suggest a pendulum action. I mean an upstroke when contact is a tangential strike. It is achieved by pivoting the shoulders and having the hands pressed forward so the clubface is delofted at impact. This must occur only two inches beyond the bottom of the arc of the stroke. Only then will a correct strike plane on the ball be achieved." See this Swash article.

This to me indicates he wants the flat face of the putter tilted forward (delofted) by the hands and then "swiped" up across the back of the ball with a shoulder frame lifting. I infer the "high impact on the face" (although Harold doesn't explicitly say so) from the sentence: "This must occur only two inches beyond the bottom of the arc of the stroke." What this means to me is that the ball position is two inches ahead of the bottom of the stroke arc at address, that the back of the ball sticks closer to the bottom by 0.84 inch, so the gap at address between back equator of ball and bottm of arc is only 1.16 inches, and that when the golfer presses the hands forward this brings the putter even coser to the back of the ball so and also moves the bottom of the arc forward a little, so there is practically no gap left between the dynamic bottom of the stroke going forward and the back equator of the ball. When all is said and done, the up-swipe of the tilted putter face hits the back of the ball above the equator, but the impact point on the putter face is higher than it would be otherwise, especially because of the delofting (which actually lowers the top leading edge of the putter face).

Again, according to Lindsay, who has tested Harold Swash's putters (see his website), it is not so much how high on the face that matters -- it is that the impact point is higher then the center of gravity of the putter head. If you have a low COG putter head, an impact point that is also low will still be good, just so long as it is not as low as or lower than the COG.

In my technique, for this reson, it is probably best to use a putter head with a low COG, so the rising up-stroke without a forward press is still okay and doesn't generate unnecessary backspin.

Cheers!

Geoff Mangum
Putting Theorist and Instructor
Geoff Mangum's PuttingZone
http://puttingzone.com
Golf's most advanced and comprehensive putting instruction.

Over 1,280,000 visits and growing strong ...

518 Woodlawn Ave
Greensboro NC 27401
336.790.8176 home
336.340.9079 cell

Thanks Geoff. I was just going to add to my previous email and say Harold must be encouraging a forward press at impact to hit a spot higher on the putter face.

It would really be nice to see a study of ball roll and ultimately putts made from say over 8 feet for different strike points on the back of the golf ball. Any chance you have seen any data like this. I assume Harold's "Yes" putter and the 2-Bar Putter would have some data that may shed some light on the improvement in holing putts as a result of better ball roll.

Of all the different putters and techniques tried my empirical evidence would indicate hitting higher on the back of the ball results in more efficient contact between putter and ball. Where I think this becomes important is when you are putting on slower greens or if you typically do not produce the optimal speed to normally make putts.

Interesting topic on forward press, but it should also be put in the context of particular putter designs. Back offset putter hosels seem to create a forward press alignment and further forward press will exaggerate the shaft tilt ... if not create a sense of misalignment. Mallet putters with a deep CG and a forward press may become difficult to control as the putter mass swings through the longitudinal CG axis.

Since the putting stroke is rather slow, and the putter head movement can become erratic at slow speed, I wonder if special manipulations are actually possible on a consistent basis, which coincides with your comment, namely:

"To me, the payoff is bigger for a straighter stroke with good touch than it is for a questionable improvement in roll at the expense of hand manipulation or specific impact dynamics while the stroke is in its critical phase. I'd rather worry about "straight" than about "true roll.""

Perhaps "true roll" is more influenced by the chaotic grass-ball rolling contact than pure ball-putter impact event.

I have read several of your messges, I am a significant forward press putter, with ball pretty much forward, would adding loft give me a better roll? I use a Cameron Laguna 2.5 which is fairly heel shafted putter, but am thinking that I'm getting a little to much skid and bounce. Any suggestions? Can the putters loft be easily altered?
KH

Dear Kelly,

Forward pressing firstly take loft out of the putter as presented to the ball, then secondly the stroke pattern may put some more loft back in for actual impact. It depends on ball position plus stroke pattern how much loft in the putter plus delofting by forward press is good or bad.

Some people forward press under conditions that the style does little more than solidify their "triangle" (little extra tension and form in the back of the lead wrist and lead forearm) and move the bottom of their stroke a little more forward. If this sort of "benign" forward press is used with a putting stroke that bottoms out and thereafter rises into the back of the ball (perhaps at 2-3 degrees trajectory), then the putter will be delofted from its design loft by the forward press but re-lofted by the upward trajectory of the blow. At this point, if the loft, forward press de-lofting, and stroke pattern re-lofting all net out to present minimal loft or even negative loft in the putter face to the top of the back of the ball as the putter face rises into the ball, then this is a very good combination.

So, regardless of your putter and its design loft, you still have the opportunity to manage your forward press (more fp for more de-lofting, less fp for less-de-lofting), your stroke pattern (knowing where the stroke actually bottoms out and thereafter starts rising), and your ball position (closest to the bottom of the stroke for least added re-lofting and farther from the bottom to add more re-lofting) to get to a good combination of roll with least skid and bounce.

The more your stroke "arcs", the more important it is to get the ball position jammed back to the actual bottom of the stroke. I teach a straight stroke coming forward thru impact zone, staying straight for 5-6 inches at least past the bottom, so ball position doesn't have to be jammed back against the bottoming. This gives a little margin of error, but you don't want to take too big a margin, as this increases the upward trajectory of the thru-swing and adds re-lofting beyond a point of goodness. My ball position is about 1 full inch ahead of the bottom of my stroke.

That's why I say to heck with the lot -- no forward press at all, just get a good combination of neutral bottoming and mild rising thereafter into a reasonable ball position with least design loft possible in the putter to start with.

Cheers!

Geoff Mangum
Putting Coach and Theorist
PuttingZone
http://puttingzone.com
Golf's most advanced putting instruction -- you're either in the PuttingZone, or not.