Geoff: Could you expand your explanation on this statement:
"So long as there is no arm or hand action independent of the shoulder frame motion in the backstroke or the downstroke (and the backstroke is gentle and not jerky or abrupt), holding the pivot in plane and in place above the middle of the stroke and simply "letting" the arms and hands and putter fall back thru the impact zone will naturally and automatically re-square the putter face ....... "
I may not be interpreting your statement in the proper context .. because in my thinking the anatomy of the shoulders and upper torso may dictate how the stroke is executed.
Soft shoulder structure will allow the scapulae to slide or glide over the upper thorax, which will make the arm action independent of the stationary torso and neck.
Solid shoulder structure will lock the scapulae to the thorax, and the upper torso will have to be rotated to execute a putting stroke.
With these divergent anatomical examples the shoulder frame motion is quite different. Thanks for your clarifications.
Whenever the shoulder joint (armpit) opens or closes, there is independent arm action. (There is also independent forearm action when the elbow joint alters in the stroke.) This agrees more or less with your second option above:
"Solid shoulder structure will lock the scapulae to the thorax, and the upper torso will have to be rotated to execute a putting stroke."
Your terminology is a bit different than what I would use. I would not say "solid" or "lock", as this is not how the shoulder and torso interact in movement. The gut and lower back muscles basically move the upper torso as a unit, and this simply carries the shoulders with the motion. The upper torso motion flexes the lower spine more than it does the thoracic spine, so the upper torso more or less stays as a unit in the motion. The most motion occurs in the lower back. I would also not say "rotate", as this is not quite what the lower torso is doing. The lower torso is flexing side to side. This carries the lead shoulder in plane headed beneath the pivot at the base of the neck, and then reciprocates the other way. The actual extent of movement of the lead shoulder itself is not that great -- perhaps 3-5 inches total in space. The way the pivot stays in place is complicated, but involves some combination of the hips shifting sideways or the upper torso causing a stretch away from the hips on one side. It all concentrates low in the abdomen, near the hips. It is quite possible to hold the neck and head still in place as the upper torso flexes down and back and then up and forward.
If the stroke motion is more of a gating action, this alleviates the stretching a bit, but brings its own problems into play.
With either stroke motion, the pivot ends up being the key -- either keeping it still in place so the stroke re-squares the putter in the middle of the stroke before impact, or by the pivot moving in a carefully symmetrical pattern back and forward.
Cheers!
Geoff Mangum
Putting Coach and Theorist
PuttingZone http://puttingzone.com
Golf's most advanced putting instruction -- You're either in the PuttingZone, or not.
I don't want to seem like I'm confuising the issue, but here goes!
The usual sense of "rotation" of the spine is a fixed pole turining in place. But if you stop and think of the anatomy a little more specifically, you realize this isn't what is happening. If tyhere were a pole, it would have to be anchored in the pelvis, so "turning" is really "twisting" above a fixed base, more like a licorice stick twisted at the top. The only way the spine could actually "turn" or "rotate" is if the bottom of the pole were inserted thru a hole in the lower skeletal structure between in the pelvis so it could "rotate" freely. This is not how the spine works.
In addition, there seems to be a general notion that the upper torso can act independently of the lower body. Actually, that is sort of the case and sort of not the case. (How's that for confusing?) The muscles that connect the upper torso to the lower body do so in downward-wrapping strips or sheets of muscle that connect along the upper torso's sides and bottom and spiral down to connect at the lower end on the pelvis and thigh bones. While the structural properties of the upper torso more or less make the torso something of a fixed shape, the movement of the upper torso happens by these sheets of muscle tugging on the bottom and sides of the torso, causing the torso to twist or bend the spine. The spine bends and twists more in the lower back than in the thoracic spine, as a result of this combination. The bending and twisting of the spine in the upper back / neck region is also more than the bending / twisting of the thoracic spine, but this movement has little to do with "rotating" the torso and shoulders.
Try moving your shoulder frame without feeling anything happening in your hips.
The angle of the lower spine helps alleviate the sidewards forces of the shoulder motion against the hips, but this posture and movement is still not especially different in terms of the muscles and their connecting pattern of upper torso and pelvis -- it's still in the gut and lower back.
So, to wrap it up, when there is NO independent arm motion apart from the turning of the shoulder frame as a unit, the armpits do not alter. This motion is almost entirely accomplished in the gut and lower back.
Cheers!
Geoff Mangum
Putting Coach and Theorist
PuttingZone http://puttingzone.com
Golf's most advanced putting instruction -- You're either in the PuttingZone, or not.
Thanks Geoff .... for separating out this discussion from the other thread. I was deciding how to respond to your first message and now you have provided me with even more to think about ... so here goes ...
In defining my interpretation of "shoulder motion", please consider:
1. Body genotypes. ....... When I was refering to "soft" and "solid" shoulder structures, I was thinking respectively about ectomorphs and endomorphs. The "flexibility" of the should points is affected by the bulk of the surrounding musculature ... pecs, delts, traps,etc. A stocky endomorph cannot easily adduct and abduct his scapulae because of the interference of the muscle mass surrounding the shoulder. A skinny ectomorph can easily move his shoulder girdle around his narrow thorax. These anatomical differences affect how the shoulders are used in a putting stroke.
The endomorph is forced to bend and rotate his upper torso in some manner to move his solid shoulders and arms as a unit, while an ectomorph can simply adduct and abduct his soft, flexible shoulder girdle around his stationary thorax. For the endomorph the upper arms are pinned against his pecs and rotating with the torso, while the ectomorphs skinny arm are sliding slightly over his somewhat stationary flat chest and small pecs ... ergo independent arm action.
(Sometimes I think that it would all be so much simpler just to go back to the Palmer-Nicklaus wristy putting strokes without involving the entire upper body ... and just use a Wilson 8802 ..!!)
2. Spinal movement. ...... It is my understanding that axial rotation of the spine occurs primarily in the thoracic section, with little to none in the lumbar section. Flexing, extending and lateral movement occurs in the lumbar section. However, the spine assumes a C-form when putting, as opposed to the gentle S-form in the full golf swing. This inclined cantilever-column C-form spine becomes limited in it's range of movement, which is acceptable for putting.
So at one extreme the putting stroke may require the rocking/rotating/twisting of the entire torso as I interpret your explanation, while at the other extreme the arms and shoulder girdle may move around a stationary torso and therefore independent of the lower back. Endomorphic versus ectomorphic putting stoke actions. Screw the mesomorph ... they have the ideal body for the golf swing anyway.
I hope this helps clarify my analysis of the shoulder actions ... without going into detailed anatomy or free-body diagrams ... but what the hey ... if you're game so am I ... best regards... !!!!
Fantastic information! I like the focus on body types. I once demonstrated my techniques to an XXL golfer working in a golf retail store. He dismissed it as something he'd never do. I replied that not everyone is built to be a great putter. He walked off.
Let's go for the anatomical charts. If you know how to post images on this forum, please do so. If not, send to me via email and I'll post them for you. We can always use better information.
I'll try to figure out about the thoracic spine rotation as opposed to flexing in the lumbar region.
In general, what I teach makes a skinny, flexible guy (like me) putt more like a lardass -- I frown upon the upper arms gliding across the pecs!
Cheers!
Geoff Mangum
Putting Coach and Theorist
PuttingZone http://puttingzone.com
Golf's most advanced putting instruction -- You're either in the PuttingZone, or not.
First as aside, I read the post about others taking credit for what you have created. Reminds me a bit of what Jim Hardy is now going through with all the others now starting to convert to his views, BUT without giving him the credit. It’s funny how some of these world renown instructors are moving off their previous views without so much as a word to credit to Jim for his great work. Glad to see you taking the high ground. I came here to post a question, and started reading the new posts, and here it is, the basis of my question.
I have always had an issue on getting my body in the way when I putt. I subscribe to the Stan Utley school of putting with more of a turn on an arc vs. straight back and straight through. Now lets be clear, while I am not a skinny man, I am not huge either [ 6' 1", 200 lbs with a fairly large chest]. I think why I get into this issue is due to the independent arm action [which is really an independent triangle action – arms and shoulders, which causes the slight brush across the pecs as you describe. There is only too ways I can get out of this. Stand further away from the ball, which increases the shaft angle [and causes my eye line to be well inside the line] but does allow more room between my upper arms and torso, or kick my butt out [which changes my balance point], while artificially making my upper arms stay out a little from the torso. I don’t like either of these since neither feels natural nor very comfortable, two things that must be present in any stroke.
After reading the above, I am back to asking a very simple, basic question, what moves in the stroke? From what I read above, one of the methods is to almost lock the arms to the torso, then turn [twist[ the torso around a stationary lower body. Doing this eliminates my problem of getting the body in the way since the torso is turning at approximately the same rate as the upper arms. So how far off it this and what adjustments do I need to make?
As an aside, I was watching the GC a few weeks back and Stan Utley was on again. He spoke of a few things, including something he said he never shared with the pros until he started charging for lessons. It was the slight independent movement of the shoulder joint, ie the same hinge action that you make when you move your arms when you walk. In addition, he talked about a slight loading of the right elbow in the back stroke, and a straightening on the through stroke, which he thought was a bit of power source. He concluded that the stroke really didn’t go a long way past impact, since once the right arm straightened [from that loading], the stroke was basically over. He also subscribes to your view that the shoulders really move very little in the stroke since they are at the farthest point away, stating everything should move proportionately, which I agree with.
I would appreciate your thoughts on this, as this seems to go very much against what I have read you say.
The glib answer to the question "What moves in the putting stroke?" is "everything except the pivot (and even that moves a little)."
By that, I mean that the problem is not really moving the putter head, or the hands, or the arms, or the shoulders, or even the spine, in a certain fashion -- the problem is more about moving the whole ensemble of body parts with the least disruption to the pivot at the base of the neck and use this stability to make a stroke going forward that is straight and square between the feet (during impact and a little beyond). This is the basis for "minimalist" putting, in which the movement is as simple as possible and as little complicated as possible, yet repeating, and consistent, and accurate. The question for an individual boils down to how that person can best achieve this combination.
The implication of this approach is that, from any given individual's point of view, talking about putting "styles" or "methods" is not all that helpful. If a "style" doesn't best help the individual get to "minimalist" technique for him, then it's not the final solution. That style may be helpful in getting closer, but we are here talking about getting as good as you can get.
Personally, I teach the body, and the brain, and what is required at an instinctive level for optimal putting. This doesn't vary much from golfer to golfer in terms of the basic brain and body processes and the physics of putting. But this particular post is great because the discussion of body types makes everything get specific for given individuals.
Not to put too fine a point on it, what you report about Stan Utley sharing on TGC kind of makes my point. The action he describes with the rear elbow locking thru impact is something that addresses a problem implicit in his overall "arcing style" -- he does not have a symmetrical action back and thru: he has an arcing back and a straight stroke thru the impact zone. That's what I teach, without making the "straight thru" aspect one of the long-held "secrets." Secrets go with "styles" and "models" and these are abstract patterns of movement to the individual. I teach individuals, first by explaining where we are headed (a minimalist, straight-thru-impact action) and then together we head off for the goal, getting there as best and as quickly and as permanently as we can, given the individual's capacity and talent.
The other point Utley is making about the "slight shoulder action as when walking" he does not seem to understand at a deep level. What would that action add to the making of a good putting stroke? My answer is "balance in motion", the way we learn balance in motion when walking. Balance is predictability, and predictability is accuracy and repeatability. Specifically, the arm action deflects forces from the head and thus keeps the head posture and equilibrium stable while walking with least muscle tension called into service. Imagine the tension in a soldier in parade march if he marched without the swing of the arms. So this slight (reciprocal and symmetrical) shoulder-arm action is ONE WAY to minimize the forces tending to promote pivot motion, during the backstroke.
What I teach about this is that IF YOU CAN DO IT, no independent arm action is better than a little, but if you are built a certain way or just can't get it or like it, then Plan B is to use as little arm action as necessary, and then ONLY for the purpose of managing the pivot at the base of the neck to keep the motion there minimal and at worst symmetrical until impact and a little after.
There is no sense in telling ALL GOLFERS in general that everyone should have this independent arm and shoulder action. There is also no sense in telling them that everyone must use no independent arm action and only shoulder action. But there is a great deal of sense in telling people why and how the choice matters in the way they affect the consistency and accuracy of a given individual's stroke action.
Which brings me back to what exactly I teach -- don't mess up the pivot, and make a straight stroke between the feet going thru impact. This applies to ALL GOLFERS, in my view, Stan Utley included.
So why the discussion of the shoulder action here? Because a specific golfer's not having the ability to use a stroke motion without independent arm action is one of the main reasons his arms and hands will pronate / supinate during the stroke. He needs to know that so he can observe what happens and why. It's not that the golfer wants to learn how to make a prescribed pattern of pronation / supination happen over and over (in some teacher's "style" or "method"), but that the golfer needs to know and understand his own body more astutely so that he can concern himself more with the pivot and with making a stroke that repeats and is accurate straight thru the impact zone. The golfer needs to know what effect his independent arm action has on his pivot and on his putter path and putter face. The shoulder-only golfer needs to know about the same basic problem -- how does the golfer's specific way of making a shoulders-only stroke challenge the pivot and affect the making of a thru-stroke that is straight and square between the feet?
It's not a good idea to explain to someone that a "release" must get done in a certain fashion, or the golfer is not doing it right. The action is putting that matters is usually a lot higher and closer in to the core of the body than the hands.
A stroke with no independent arm action keeps the putter path in the same plane as the shoulder action, keeps the putter square to the path of the putter, and delivers the putter path and face straight down the line, so long as the pivot remains in place. A vertical shoulder plane is better than a tilted shoulder plane, but other than that, keeping the pivot in place while going thru impact REQUIRES the putter to move straight on plane and square. That's minimalist accuracy and consistency.
In contrast, when there is SOME independent arm action going back (shoulder's move as in walking or upper arms slide across pecs a little), the action will naturally open the arms going back. The arm action also is likely to drive the hands slightly away from the thighs more than called for, if the golfer's move back from the ball also shoves the pivot out of position. You have to choose -- either allow the shoulders to swing freely with independent arm action, or not. If you get caught in between, you are likely to use a mixture of moving the shoulder and also moving the arms, and this is a lot more likely to shove the pivot out of place than a clearer-headed plan of using one or the other SO THAT the pivot doesn't get jostled too much. (I call this "putting from the top" in balance.)
You will recall that Stan Utley always prefaces his teaching about the stroke with the statement that there are other ways to putt, and he is simply showing you what he feels in the way he personally has learned to make a stroke. The problem comes in trying to make his technique fit all golfers. I think my approach is a lot deeper and applies across the board, since it is fundamental and not so much a "style" or "method." If you want or need to use independent arm action in the putting stroke, then I can explain how to do that accurately and consistently as well or better than anyone on the planet, because I can show you the problems this creates for the pivot and for straight-thru-impact movement and how to solve them.
The bottom line is: putt from the top, in balance, with least disruption to the pivot's stability, in the most comfortable and least complicated way your body and talent allows.
I believe that if you follow this approach, you will end up with less and less independent arm action. Independent arm action only makes the "straight-thru-impact" action harder to repeat.
Cheers!
Geoff Mangum
Putting Coach and THEORIST
PuttingZone http://puttingzone.com
Golf's most advanced putting instruction -- you're either in the PuttingZone, or not.
Thanks for your continual insight, but I am still confused and blocked. While I appreciate a single style/stroke is not right for everyone, I am trying to find one for myself that works, that is comfortable and repeatable, that is the simplest it can be for me.
I have tried the vertical stroke and it just didn't work for me, in fact, I think it is what lead the downfall of my stroke a few years back by making me into a very mechanical, stroke conscious putter. When I went back to more of arc in the stroke, it felt more natural and comfortable to me, but by then I was so conscious of what I was doing, I lost much of my natural ability. And I can't seem to get myself into a position of an UNRESTRICTED stroke. By that I mean my body [stomach] seems to get in the way of my stroke unless I have my elbows out, causing the arms to hang away from my body. I was reading an article you wrote under - One Slow Putt Fits All Tempos, in which you state "However, a putting stroke is not really a pendulum, because there really isn't a single "arm" suspended from a single pivot as with a pendulum; instead, you have more of a three-piece triangle (arms and putter) connected to a shoulder frame and the shoulder frame rocks back and through by virtue of torso rotation, hopefully staying on plane with the center of this system more or less stationary." Here you are talking about the torso rotation which is where I get stuck. My view is that I should be able to attach the upper part of my arms to the sides and turn the torso to make the stroke, ie everything sort of locked together, but then when I do, it gets restricted and elbow gets stuck in the stomach area.
Well as chance would have it, I was at the practice green today, talking to one of the young talented pros and asking him about what he did and explained to him what my problem was. After a few minutes of discussion he had me set up, and after he did, he put a club shaft across my shoulders, stating that they were rounded and well in front of my chest. In other words if you looked down from the sky, you would notice a concaved arc from one shoulder point to the other, with the chest not even touching the shaft [which is even more unusual since I have a fairly large chest.]. He states that by setting up in this way, I am restricting my turn and that the shoulders should both be back, with the shaft hitting the chest first, or at the very least hitting all three points at the same time [I had about a 2” gap in mine]. He further stated that this is also true of the full swing in that it will also be restricted in turning in the shoulders are not back.
I practiced by standing straight and ensuring my shoulders were back [not that hard or unnatural], and then bent at the waist. Now this was a struggle as it obviously felt unnatural since I had been doing it the other way for so long, plus I think the muscles in the back between the shoulder blades are very weak. Now I have read a lot on both the golf swing and putting, and have been around golf a long time, but I have never heard even a single reference to this, not even on your site.
Have you run into this before and if so, what are your thoughts.
That's funny! Just this week I've been working on the idea of a flat top of the back, holding a shaft across the back shoulder to shoulder to help remove the concavity you describe. If you reach up and hold the shaft across the shoulders with one hand on each side of the back, this positioning of the elbows will pin your shoulders back. Holding the shaft this way and making a stroke is a very nice drill.
In addition to the concavity in the front chest, there is a second problem I've been concerned with: the drooping of the lead shoulder in the takeaway in a fashion that does not really cause a reciprocating push up on the rear shoulder. In other words, each shoulder can move somewhat independently, and if you don't keep the motion of each shoulder joined and coordinated with the other shoulder, the stroke's form deteriorates.
Both of these problems are connected. The upper back and chest muscles keep the total back flayt, and the lower torso muscles (abdomen and back) power the stroke.
So that's my take on this business.
Great questions and comments! Thanks.
Cheers!
Geoff Mangum
Putting Coach and Theorist
PuttingZone http://puttingzone.com
Golf's most advanced putting instruction -- you're either in the PuttingZone, or not.
