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Face balanced

October 9 2008 at 1:35 AM
Anders  (no login)
from IP address 198.155.189.85

Dear Geoff, What is the effect of a face balanced putter vs a putter with more weight towards the toe on the putting stroke? What are your general recommendations on this and as regards loft, weight, sight lines etc?

 
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(Premier Login aceputt)
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24.28.240.12

Putter Design Features

November 6 2008, 9:30 AM 

Dear Anders,

To give the short answers first (for those readers not interested in the details):

a) both "face balanced" and "toe hanging" putter designs cause the same problem of toe flaring open by itself (due to poor physics) off the target line AND out of the stroke plane -- I like a "heel-balanced" putter design;

b) typically, under 2 degrees is preferable to 3-4 degrees, on today's smooth, true, tight green surfaces.

c) about 360 grams and up to perhaps 400 to 425 grams is very good for most golfers;

d) aim lines need to be much simpler and more intelligently designed for the visuo-spatial brain processes that support spatial awareness and physical action in relation to targets and space on the greens -- the designs available today are not well informed on visual science.

BALANCING SCHEMES

Face-balanced putters and toe-hanging putters differ only in degree, not in kind. Both designs tend to make the toe flare open in the backstroke, out of the stroke plane, and not simply out of the target plane. The toe-hanging putter has a greater tendency to do this, inherent in the more severe physics of the mass imbalance, but a "face balanced" putter also does this to a lesser degree. This physics reality is CLEARLY not appreciated by golf instructors or players and even by almost all designers, so perhaps they will learn something of great commercial value by looking into these issues with a desire for clarity.

What I really "like" is a "reality balanced" putter, which ends up being a "heel-hanging" putter.

If you take a "toe balanced" putter and position it at the top of your follow-thru and then let it freely swing back to its own top of backstroke position, you will see it swings severely open at the top. That's due to the extra inertial of the extra mass in the toe end of the face: this extra heaviness won't stop as soon as the lighter heel end, so the toe crashes thru the wall of the train station and the toe goes farther than the heel, flaring open out of the target line AND the stroke plane. The "face balanced" putter does the same to a lesser extent. Why is this? Because the center of mass of the putter swinging on a tilt is not the same location as when the putter shaft is balanced on the finger level with the ground to "see what sort of balancing the putter head has". Finger balancing and the balancing during the swing are simply not the same, and what you want to know about is swinging or so-called "reality" balance -- what are the balance physics and inertial effects during a stroke, not when the putter shaft is poised on your finger.

But if you invert a "toe-balanced" putter (flip it heel-away, toe-near, underside of grip now on top) and suspend it at the top of the follow-thru and then let it swing to it's natural position at the top of the backstroke, you should see a putter that NOW swings squarely back and thru, sans unhelpful "toe-flow" causing the putter to open out of plane and off line. Interesting, huh?

To see the differences, visit these short movies at Positive Putters. Out of the nearly 600 current putter manufacturers, fewer than ten utilize these balancing principles in their designs (and none of the so-called "top" designers use anything other than the balance schemes that cause problems).

If you have a toe-flaring putter design, and don't like having to correct the putter face when it flares out of the target line AND out of the stroke plane (and that includes 99.9% of all golfers today), then you probably would like to know what is required to "prevent" the inherent physics from doing damage. All that is required is managing the extra mass, which is on the same order as about one fourth of a golf ball or less for the extra mass out of the proper balance towards the toe / away from the heel. Handling this requires a very modest increase in grip pressure, so there is a MINIMUM grip pressure to use every stroke, otherwise you are allowing the bad physics its head to mess with your stroke and cause unnecessary problems that need fixing. Golfers who think "feel is in the fingers and the less grip pressure the better" don't seem to know what is actually happening in the stroke, so again it's a case of the tail wagging the dog. These golfers are putting unmindfully in reaction to unhelpful physics, and this in effect trains these golfers non-consciously how to manipulate the putter to get some sort of success. That's fine, but skill without knowledge equals streakiness, with fall-offs from performance without the know-how for immediate self-correction. These fall-offs can last months or years. Ask Mike Weir (4 years) or KJ Choi (5 years) or Joe Durant (15 years), who all experienced great ghastly gaps between stellar putting rounds without the slightest clue how to fix the problem.

LOFT

The guiding principle is: the least loft required by the usual surface speeds and conditions you play is best. On today's greens (vastly improved since 1980 over the past), that is around 0-2 degrees, and 3-4 degrees is too much loft. Players using putters with too much loft unmindfully tend to change their strokes to overcome the adverse effect, by delofting the putter at address and dragging the putter low and level thru the impact area and similar idiosyncratic dynamics. That is the tail (putter design) wagging the dog (golfer's stroke). Good luck to that dog becoming a masterful "wagger" of his tail.

WEIGHTING

The overall weight and its effect on the overall center of mass of the golfers arms, hands, and putter as a unit is more important than swingweight, and the overall weight should be matched to the golfer's body and strength and stroke timing primarily and also to the typical greens and conditions played. In general, heavier putter heads promote more inertial stability in the stroke, making it less likely that the fidgety golfer will adversely alter stroke path (the threshold force required to change the stroke path of a heavier putter is higher and so more forgiving of little fidgets.) But there is a range, and simply heavier and heavier is stupid. About 360-370 grams in the putter head is approximately "normal" for most guys, and 450 grams is just "too danged heavy", resulting in too-tight grips and poor muscle patterns and biomechanics activating the backstroke (snatching the putter head back off the ground, usually across the target line resulting in a loopy stroke path). Also, the center of mass of the system should probably be closer in to the body than typical with conventional putter designs, as this makes the golfer less "handsy" in the action and more consistent and accurate for line and touch.

Incidentally, contrary to current "old wives tales", a lighter putter is not better for a faster green. A lighter putter results in the need for more velocity and force at impact compared to the usual weight, and this in turn generates either a change in the golfer's timing or a LARGER stroke than usual and in any event a faster stroke. The implicit notion seems to be "lighter is more sensitive, and slicker greens need more sensitivity for distance control". That's a bit confused. The "usual" heavier putter does very very well on fast greens (think Augusta National) and the myth of requiring extra "sensitivity" or even "less blunder-bussing" to control distance is simply a fear-induced fantasy. It's similar to believing in the boogey-man lurking in the dark woods just outside your family's yard -- understandable but not particularly rational, since you've never really seen the boogey-man in person. So take a look!

If you putt with a light putter and a regular not-light putter at Augusta National, this is the effect for the same 20-foot downhill putt: A) the light putter has a larger-faster stroke that results in FORCE 10.102 whereas the usual not-light putter has a shorter-slower stroke that results in exactly the same FORCE 10.102; or B) the lighter putter is swung with a shorter-even-faster stroke to generate FORCE 10.102 while the usual not-light putter requires nothing out of the habitual ordinary. In any case, the 20-foot downhill putt requires FORCE 10.102 and none other for optimal results. In addition, the lighter putter is easier to fidget out of square due to less inertial stability than the usual putter.

Similarly, changing the weight on a putter head in an attempt to "regulate" (not attain) an accurate sense of touch for different surface speeds is just not the right approach. Some golfers (including very prominent golfers on Tour) fiddle around with the lead tape on their putters in an effort to "regulate" different greens to their stroke habits, instead of just accepting the differences. Typically, these golfers note exactly what SIZE backstroke makes a 10-foot putt for touch on a Stimp 11 green, and then when they migrate to a Stimp 9 or 10 green, they "fiddle around" with more tape until the SIZE of their 10-foot stroke on the slower green is EXACTLY the same as it was on the Stimp 11 green. This whole enterprise is AGAINST paying attention to the reality of the green and to the natural timing and movement pattern that takes its cue from the reality of the green speed. This CAN'T be good for the golfer over the long haul.

AIM LINES

Aim lines are being designed out of vast clouds of ignorance about visual processing for spatial awareness and physical action, and practically all designs are frankly goofy. Optometrists and amateurs and veteran designers all get some small "notion" of what is "best" and then are off to the races trying to justify what they have come up with, but no one seems to have good common sense or any reasonable fund of neuroscience about how the brain uses vision for body action in space.

No putter manufacturer that I have ever heard of designs aim line(s) and then markets the proof that the design helps golfers aim better so that at the end of the process the laser shows that the golfer positioned the putter face exactly where intended some substantial distance off to the side, AND the golfer knew that before the laser was activated, AND this aim also works well with the stroke that the golfer habitually produces so that the putts ALSO go where the putter face aims, AND this aim line design is equally effective for a wide range of golfers. Such proof would probably strongly imply that the designer actually understood / knew how the aiming process works in the brain and what is important and what is not.

This great silence on the matter of scientific proof of the efficacy of manufacturer's efforts to design good aim lines is all the proof I need to conclude that none of them have the least idea what they are trying to get accomplished or how to do it. For example, most companies offer several choices about the aim lines in their various models: Does that make sense, if one is better for human visual processes than another? If instead the notion is that "whatever works for you is best" guides the design process, what do you suppose the designers are doing when they offer the world of 40 million individual worldwide golfers three or four patterns to pick from?

Frankly, golf equipment manufacturers, designers, optometrists (Nike hires one to help design putters), and dilletante wanna-be putter designers should probably either learn something about how the brain works in aiming, do a little testing, or "take up bowling." The one thing they won't stop is the marketing hype to accompany whatever they have managed to come up with for aim line(s). Without getting too deep into the science, suffice it to say that marks (not necessarily "lines") to help with aiming need to be vastly simpler and more intelligently designed for spatio-visual processing in conjunction with physical action than heretofore.

David Edel (www.edelgolf.com) stands alone among putter designers today in actually INVESTIGATING this issue, along with help from the empirical testing and experiments ("studies") carried out by David Orr at Campbell University's Professional Golf Management program (www.orrgolf.com). (Incidentally, his data "sample sizes" shame those of other golf "scientists" as well as probably all sports science studies for putting in academia.)

David Edel Putter Fitting

David Edel putter fitting session

David Orr at MIT

David Orr presenting findings of his studies at MIT golf technology conference

According to my understanding, Edel and Orr have been learning that the aim line in isolation is not what determines accuracy of aiming or lack thereof, and that the total features of the putter design all make separate contributions, such as the shape of the putter head, the appearance of the shaft as angled into the head, the hosel design, the prominence of features in the interior appearance of the putter head, and many other contributing factors. And this is BEFORE taking stock of the golfer's personal biases for vision and stroke action, which also affect the aiming process. The general thrust of the investigation is to find understanding for practical application of WHY one putter design pattern would work better than another with a specific golfer's set of biases, resulting in a science-driven, principled, knowing way to "fit" putter designs to golfers, including optimizing the aiming process by an integrated approach to the golfer AND the tool.

This effort parallels and complements my own researches into what actually happens in the body, vision, and brain when a golfer looks at a putter and aims it. Hopefully, our parallel efforts are converging and mutually supporting and informing, as they appear to be so far. The final word, I suggest, is that aiming putters is at the beginning of its first-ever serious learning curve.

OTHER DESIGN FEATURES

Numerous other design features (your "etc.") promise the world and deliver anthills, as usual. Using real "investigative" science, not the dumbed-down "ranking / sorting" science usual in sports science academia or the "to measure is to know" delusional science of most golf technologies, engineers and club designers Werner and Grieg tested isolated design features of putters against a simple criterion: does the feature help the golfer have fewer strokes per round, and if so, what is the magnitude of the effect? (See their book for detailed data and testing protocols: How Golf Clubs Really Work and How to Optimize Their Designs).

Their studies concluded that, yes, all design features make a difference, but the magnitude is so miniscule compared to the golfer"s basic variability for reading, aiming, stroking, and controlling distance, that the effective helpfulness of the design features were all "swamped" by the larger variability golfers have in their skill (this includes pros). The design effect versus the need to control variability is typically on the order of 1 to 10 or 1 to 20, with the design feature helping only 10% of the need while the golfer is coming and going another 4 to 10 times that much left or right, long or short, etc. For example, a so-called "better" MOI design does not necessarily help a bad golfer get better, and a bad golfer may well do better using a "poorer" MOI design for any number of reasons. The helpfulness of the "better" MOI design might reduce distance control errors by perhaps 4 inches on a ten or twenty foot putt but the golfer cannot consistently benefit from this because he is off distance by plus or minus 4 FEET (48 inches) over 90 percent of the time. This same "swamping" of design benefit runs thru all the designs about equally. None of them matter enough to get excited about, in comparison to what the golfer can accomplish for improvement simply honing his skills at reading, aiming, stroking, and controlling distance. There are no magic bullets, so golfers need to have a good cry, grow up, and learn how to putt without constantly chasing design fads.

Frank Thomas, regarded by quite a few as a scientist -- he's fond of declaiming "To measure is to know", said in a radio interview with respect to his personal offering of a putter design (which, incidentally, has nothing interesting for aiming): "I wracked my brain for a long time trying to come up with something innovative for my Frankly Frog putter design, and all I could come up with was the color green." (Edwin Watts Better Golf Podcast with co-guest Scotty Cameron and host interviewer Fred Greene). This is quite at odds with his public marketing that states his putter is the most scientifically advanced putter on the market.

So the message is: Marketing statements are not science, and may not even be truthful, and may even be deliberate misstatements of the true belief. Golfers should take this state of affairs as the "school for skepticism" that it is.

Cheers!

Geoff Mangum
Putting Coach and Theorist

Geoff Mangum's
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djd99
(Login djd99)
71.247.201.119

re: Weighting

November 7 2008, 11:14 AM 

geoff- regarding putter weighting, what are your thoughts on back-weighting? do you think there are tangible benefits to back-weighting a putter with respect to improving stroke consistency? is there an optimal range for the amount of weight or an optimal position (butt of club/behind the hands? under the hands? below the hands like on the torpedo putter?)for the back-weight? thanks.

 
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(Premier Login aceputt)
Forum Owner
24.28.240.12

Backweighting Issues

November 7 2008, 12:32 PM 

Dear djd,

In assessing backweighting, the golfer probably needs to distinguish how backweighting affects 1) overall weight, 2) swingweight, 3) vibrational properties of shaft and handle, 4) center of gravity of system of arms, hands, and putter, 5) moments of inertia, and 6) balance of putter. It sure isn't a straight-forward, cut and dried issue.

For most golfers, the biggest difference will be that backweighting reduces swingweight, and appears to lessen the signals of changing pressures in the hands. Whether this is real and significant is anyone's guess.

How much backweighting is approriate for a given golfer depends on where the weight goes and the mass properties of the golfer's body and strength and stroke dynamics of the golfer and his putter to begin with.

My basic default position on all this is none of it matters as much as people hope. The putter is a tool. Swing it.

Cheers!

Geoff Mangum
Putting Coach and Theorist

Geoff Mangum's
PuttingZone
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PuttingZone Channel on YouTube
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Golf's most advanced and comprehensive putting instruction -- you're either in the PuttingZone, or not. Over 2.5 million visits -- 100,000 monthly from 50+ countries -- and growing strong.


 
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Anders
(no login)
83.250.210.36

Re: Putter Design Features

November 9 2008, 11:28 AM 

Many thanks Geoff, fantastic reply! In regard to your comments on the lack of scientifically designed and proven alignment aids, this seems to be an attempt to use science and perception physiology: http://www.pro-alignment.com/eng/index2.html
It is not on the market yet and I do not know if they have done any testing along the lines you mention, but it will be interesting to try it.

 
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(Premier Login aceputt)
Forum Owner
24.28.240.12

MLA Friends of Mine

November 14 2008, 10:57 AM 

Dear Anders,

Yes, David Sevon and Lennart Hogman at MLA Putters are friends of mine. We met and discussed their approach to neuroscience of targeting for a long time at the 2008 PGA Merchandise Show in Orlando this past January.

I haven't had experience yet with their putter, but you are correct that their effort is 100% in the right direction for shifting the paradigm from the putter to the golfer's perception and movement brain processes. Their focus is upon visual processing of lines, and this is mostly dervied from Hubel, D.H., Eye Brain and Vision (Scientific American Library, 1988). Lennart seems to know quite a bit more than most about vision neuroscience, and that's all good, but there is still more to do. Vision does not operate in a vacuum in the brain, but relates almost entirely to movement plans and habits. This is the so-called "Action Vision" that has been the subject of much neuroscience research over the past decade or so. See, for example, Milner and Goodale's The Visual Brain in Action. Line perception is not the final story, and what the brain makes of the line perceptions in terms of action is where the real battleground is staked out. See, for example, the UC Irvine Department of Psychology's Perception and Action program and The University of Edinburgh's Brazleton Centre for Perception-in-Action.

Cheers!

Geoff Mangum
Putting Coach and Theorist

Offering Free Podcast Tips for Putting Every Friday on GolfSmarterTips.com.

The best putting instruction book in golf history is now available for purchase in hardback or as an immediate ebook download: Optimal Putting: Brain Science, Instincts, and the Four Skills of Putting (2008, 282-pages)

Geoff Mangum's
PuttingZone
PuttingZone Clinics
Flatstick Forum
PuttingZone Blog & Podcast
PuttingZone Channel on YouTube
PuttingZone Picasweb Image Gallery

Golf's most advanced and comprehensive putting instruction -- you're either in the PuttingZone, or not. Over 2.5 million visits -- 200,000 monthly from 50+ countries -- and growing strong.

 
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David Orr
(no login)
75.138.209.102

Re: Putter Design Features

November 10 2008, 10:07 PM 

Thanks Geoff...

Hope your European tour was successful...Do not diminish your contribution in our studies here at Campbell University...You are an integral part of what goes on around here at CU....

Once we get some funding we'll do even more cool stuff!!!


The great thing about the research is what we learn....NOT necessarily what we prove!

 
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(no login)
75.34.27.157

Re: Putter Design Features

November 29 2008, 4:26 PM 

Geoff,
What other companies (beside positive putter) make a "heel balanced" putter?

Thanks,
p

 
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(Login luvabirdie)
117.53.131.241

Me too

December 8 2008, 7:11 PM 

Good question as I would also be interested in what other putters are out there that are properly balanced e.t.c, maybe Geoff would even be able to give us a list of his Top say 5? putters in regards to balance e.t.c that would help us find the right putter that will enable us to find the right equipment that would help us lower the No of putt's per round.

 
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djd99
(no login)
71.247.201.119

Positive Putters, Line and Speed

December 14 2008, 11:13 AM 

geoff- i have watched the videos on the Positive Putters site and one touted the forgiveness of their design with a demonstration of how an off center strike with the Positive Putter wouldn't affect a putt's intended line, only its speed ... but, in your opinion, isn't speed at least as important as line, especially when figuring the delivery speed on a breaking putt ... perhaps a better design would incorporate the "reality balance" with a face insert that delivers consistent speed on strikes across the face (like the Bobby Grace DCT line is designed to offer)

 
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(no login)
99.172.134.141

Speed control and hold the line

December 21 2008, 12:16 AM 

Positive Putter's heal shafted model called the STROKE SHAVER is like the insert as the speed dose not vary on off center hits.
Striking the ball any where between the heal and toe weighting in the cavity portion of the blade will provide the same energy as a dead center hit, which is the perfect spot or sweet spot.
This will be true for any heal shafted putter that has been retrofited by Positive putter to Target-Line Balance or what some call reality balance.

Thank you,

Mark Bernhardt
Positive Putter
317-632-3759

 
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(Login Cormac7)
68.14.82.133

Face balanced

November 10 2008, 8:52 PM 

So the putters toe should point up towards the sky when you balance the putter on your finger or table?
Would lead tape help in trying to balance the putter correctly? If so where would I apply the tape?

 
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(Premier Login aceputt)
Forum Owner
24.28.240.12

Tape for Swing

November 14 2008, 10:11 AM 

Dear Mark,

Yes, heelward of the way the axis aims thru the putter head, but don't have unrealistic expectations -- this really needs to be handled at the design stage.

Cheers!

Geoff Mangum
Putting Coach and Theorist

Offering Free Podcast Tips for Putting Every Friday on GolfSmarterTips.com.

The best putting instruction book in golf history is now available for purchase in hardback or as an immediate ebook download: Optimal Putting: Brain Science, Instincts, and the Four Skills of Putting (2008, 282-pages)

Geoff Mangum's
PuttingZone
PuttingZone Clinics
Flatstick Forum
PuttingZone Blog & Podcast
PuttingZone Channel on YouTube
PuttingZone Picasweb Image Gallery

Golf's most advanced and comprehensive putting instruction -- you're either in the PuttingZone, or not. Over 2.5 million visits -- 200,000 monthly from 50+ countries -- and growing strong.

 
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djd99
(no login)
71.247.201.119

Positive Putters, Line and Speed

December 17 2008, 8:02 PM 

geoff it seems that when i originally posted this message it posted out of chronological sequence in the thread so i have reposted, below

-----------------------------------

geoff- i have watched the videos on the Positive Putters site and one touted the forgiveness of their design with a demonstration of how an off center strike with the Positive Putter wouldn't affect a putt's intended line, only its speed ... but, in your opinion, isn't speed at least as important as line, especially when figuring the delivery speed on a breaking putt ... perhaps a better design would incorporate the "reality balance" with a face insert that delivers consistent speed on strikes across the face (like the Bobby Grace DCT line is designed to offer)


 
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(Login agreynolds)
65.43.176.20

Relationship of Putter Head Weighting and Aiming Bias

December 29 2008, 9:31 PM 

Geoff,

I have seen data that the majority of golfers aim left of their target. Also, according to the discussion of most putter head designs above, it appears the common "face-weighted" and "toe hanging" designs tend to open the putter face. This is what I like to call "arm chair research", but do you think the reason most golfers tend to aim left is simply a compensation to the fact that most putters open to the target when they are swung?

Would be interesting to test whether changing the balance would change the way people tend to aim. Curious on your thoughts here.

 
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(Login andy.thompson)
173.112.0.144

Aiming bias causing stroke manipulation or putter design causing aim manipulation.

December 31 2008, 6:13 PM 

Greg, it's been my experience that since most golfers have no idea where they are aiming their putter, the stroke becomes appropriate for where they aim. In other words if they aim left they will manipulate the stroke to get the putt to go right of their aim.

I agree with Geoff that most putters are designed to "open" during the putting stroke, but if you would see how far many people aim their putter left or right (as I have via laser testing) you would see that it is more likely that the aim bias is causing the stroke vs the putter design causing the aim as compensation. Also, if the putter design is impacting the aim, how would you explain the players who aim right with the same design of putter?

I think that Geoff would agree that the amount the putter face (of these style of putters) is "opened" during the stroke is not significant and can actually be contolled by your grip pressure as Geoff teaches.

As most things are with putters, designing a putter for "most people" who happen to aim left is not the right way to do things. What about those who aim straight or aim left?

Andy Thompson
Totally Driven
Putting Zone Coach
Edel Putter Fitter

 
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phil
(no login)
92.10.109.149

Re: Aiming bias causing stroke manipulation or putter design causing aim manipulation.

January 6 2009, 8:30 PM 

Geoff

Previously you have discussed how you prefered a face balanced putter

see link to previous thread

http://www.network54.com/Forum/52812/thread/1045070397/last-1045239501/What+is+putter+balance-

how come you have changed your mind?
Thanks

 
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(no login)
97.119.6.186

Putter that seems to work

February 3 2009, 8:30 PM 

I have had good success with scotty's tour select putters. I have 5 gram weights in the toe and 20 gram in the heel. For me it keeps the face more square on the backswing and lets me close it more on the follow through. I have had great success with dogleg right's reverse arch grip which is sort of an upside down grip. I also have been working with a Ping custom center shaft redwood with weight put in the heel.

Jon

 
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(Premier Login aceputt)
Forum Owner
24.28.240.12

No Inconsistency

February 5 2009, 3:36 PM 

I don't think I have changed my mind. Having re-read the post you reference, the statements there are still what I say today:

Both heel-toe and face balanced putters tend to open in the backstroke (heel-toe more than face balanced) due to physics in comparison to "reality balanced" putters designed for the lie angle at address, and in any event a skillful golfer can overcome the odd physics in these putters with modest grip adjustments.

It's not like making a putting stroke is wrestling a gator ...

Cheers!

Geoff Mangum
PuttingZone

 
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sammy
(no login)
65.95.175.175

That says it all !!!!

February 5 2009, 5:17 PM 

"It's not like making a putting stroke is wrestling a gator ... Cheers!" - Geoff Mangum

I was going to jump into this discussion after reading the silliness that has been posted by those who neurotically nit-pick over putter design destabilizing their delicate pussy-putting stroke ... but you said it all in a polite and gentlemanly matter.

It's incredible that 175+ lb. ham-fisted men would think that a slightly eccentric putter head would disrupt their putting stroke! The static torque to hold the putter forward on it's lie angle (in the sagittal plane) is much greater than the stroking force of the putter in the pendular plane. But these pussy neurotics want to fault their putter design for their inability to control their stroking! Of course, you Geoff, would not say something so impolite to them, but I will!!!

Fellas ... using Geoff's putting principles as prescribed in Optimal Putting will enable you to use any kind of putter design your heart desires ... Wilson 8802 like Mickelson uses, Scotty-status putter like Tiger uses, even the mallet-monstrosities being marketed to the moronic masses ... but only if you "practice" faithfully and knowledgeably ... it's all within your golf-ing fantasies..!!!

Geoff ... I just found an oldy putter in a golf store barrel that's a real pip ... called "Spalding Challenger" .. which is an 8802 design heel-shafted putter ... and it's only a tiny 3 inches from heel to toe, as opposed to the usual 4 inches... with a cute black ferrule with s/n 22687 obviously stamped in by hand and the original illegal-shaped rubber grip cracking slightly from drying out over the ages ... only $10 ... and I use it devastatingly against my friends with their $250 Scotties .. and mock them with a silent smirk and your great putting method-mentality ..!!!

IT'S NOT THE PUTTER .. IT'S THE STROKE THAT YOU USE TO POKE THE BALL WITH 1/10,000 OF THE ENERGY YOU GENERATE IN YOUR DRIVES ....!!!!

 
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Phil
(no login)
92.10.13.204

Re: That says it all !!!!

February 8 2009, 5:59 AM 

Geoff,

Either the original thread has been altered or i made a glaringly obvious oversight. The Reality balance issue can now be seen.

Thanks

Phil

 
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phil
(no login)
92.10.13.204

Re: That says it all !!!!

February 8 2009, 6:07 AM 

A good way to see how the effects of toe weighting, face balancing or reality balancing can influence face rotation when the club is swung is to stick a tee peg in the end of the grip or something similar. Hold the tee peg and let the club hang down vertically, then place a pen under the shaft and lift it into the shaft angle it would be held at address and watch what happens to the face when there is essentially no grip pressure.


 
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sammy
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65.95.177.85

Re: That says it all !!!!

February 21 2009, 1:49 PM 

Phil ........ A "face-balanced" putter will align itself in any position you want because it is neutral in all axes. The putter's shaft axis and longitudinal gravitational axis coincide ... so it can face upwards or closed in all positions; depending on how you want it to align.

Your so-called "Reality" balancing has no advantage over a neutral face-balanced putter ... in fact it feels odd with the putter's hanging gravitational axis located behind the shaft axis. I prefer to have the gravitational axis in front of the shaft axis and control the putter head with a firmer grip.

With a heel-shafted putter, I can see the entire blade aligning itself with the ball and target line. I control my putter stroking, and I don't permit the putter head to overwhelm the stroke. I can adapt to any putter style ... except the belly abominations.

If you are suggesting the putter head controls the stroking action, I would suggest you are deficient in your stroking action. Read Geoff's "Optimal Putting" before you buy another putter, because your current worthless putter may be more than adequate. However if you tend to blame your equipment for your decrepit swing and stroke ... buy new equipment ... the global economy needs it ..!!!

And .. the snow is slowly vanishing .....!!!

 
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phil
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92.15.61.85

Re: That says it all !!!!

February 22 2009, 9:40 AM 

Sammy,

Dont know where your post is coming from? how do you read im in the market for a new putter or have concerns over my stroke. I merely pointed out the fact that when you hold the putter in the plane it is held at address (when there is no grip pressure) you will see different designs respond differently. A lot of face balanced putters are not face balanced when held it that plane. The clubhead twists and the toe falls to towards the ground.

Obviously there is no grip pressure involved here and when there is there is another variable which would influence such findings.

Where did you read that i believed the putter controls the stroke? I suggest you dont read into things.

Thanks

Phil

 
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