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putter lie angle

October 5 2015 at 6:05 PM
stuart  (Login stuartca)
from IP address 68.8.190.108

 
Hey Geoff,

I have been using the yar putter for quite a while. i believe after the unfortunate incidents that they are no longer in business, i could be wrong though. My putter has always been too flat for me, and especially is now that i am really working on my setup and making sure my arms hang. The heel is well off the ground at setup. My question is how big of a problem is this? I know you mention a lot the importance of building you stance into the putter sitting with a flat sole to the ground. i have looked into bending the shaft myself but can't quite figure out the best way without changing face angle of messing it up.
Do you still think the yar is a good putter and helps consistency? Or am i just as well going with a normal center shafted putter and just add a little grip pressure? I have also been seeing a lot of the edel torque balanced putters where the putter hangs with the toe in the air..any thoughts on that or any other good putter models out there you recommend. If i can't figure out what the do with the yar putter i could be looking for something here soon.
Thanks for your time,
stuart

 
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AuthorReply

Geoff Mangum
(Login aceputt)
Owner
98.101.102.252

Putters of Imperfect Lie

November 10 2015, 7:18 AM 

Dear Stuart,

ALL putters ever made have bad lie angles. That's because the companies making them don't bother looking at the human form before designing a performance tool. I guess that's a bit much to expect of a "sport" like golf.

So the choice is always:

1. Learn the skill for using a too-flat lie putter, which is simply grip it firmly enough to manage the torque that the too-flat lie angle introduces into the stroke;

2. Bend the putter more upright to match your forearm angle, which is approximately 14 degrees (76 degrees measured in golf's weird way of talking about lie); or

3. Use the putter heel-up with the shaft axis matching the forearm axis and with the unwelcome torque forces essentially eliminated so that the hand form alone is sufficient to manage any remaining torque but extra grip pressure is no longer required.

So you ask two questions: 1. how to bend it, or should you just play it heel-up. A third question about there putters is one that does not merit talking about -- the search for a "good" or "best" putter among today's offerings is essentially wasted time.

Heel-up putters inherently misdirect the lofted putter face to the outside somewhat -- the more the loft, and the more the heel-up, the more the face aim is oriented outside the line. (A putter face with zero loft is unaffected for aim by toe-up or heel-up, except to the extent dynamic loft in the stroke delivers positive loft to the ball, and then the toe-up or heel-up matters again.) Heel-up also reduces the effective impact area on the putter face, so it is less forgiving. The end result is a bit of a compensating stroke path with a touch of "pull" in it. Works well for Steve Stricker, although I'm sure he doesn't understand how all that actually works.

Bending the putter without first learning how to bend the putter carefully risks messing up the putter. So? Who cares? It's a putter. If you're worried about it, take it to a repair shop that has a putter lie bending machine. They will lock the face into position before bending the putter shaft.

Personally, I would find a drainage grate beside a free whose slots allow me to insert the putter head into the grate and then step on the handle and bend the shaft near the putter head (within 5 inches of the sole). If you "crimp" the circular shaft, that males it "illegal", but who cares about that? You aren't using it in the US Open.

Enjoy the game!

Cheers!

[linked image]

Geoff Mangum
Putting Coach and Theorist

PuttingZone.com -- over 200 Certified PuttingZone Coaches teaching in 21 Countries Worldwide and growing strong!
The best putting instruction in the history of the game -- integrating the Four Skills of putting (reading, aiming, stroking for line, and stroking for delivery pace) by combining all putting lore in history with modern science for physics, anatomy, physiology, biomechanics, motor sports teaching and learning and performance, and especially the NEW brain science of the non-conscious processes of perception and movement action in putting skill.

 
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sammy
(no login)
184.147.201.159

Re: Putters of Imperfect Lie

November 12 2015, 4:42 PM 

Geoff.... is there such a thing as "zero loft" and hopefully resulting in no ascending or descending stroke path? What are the advantages and disadvantages of having a zero loft putter?

I do have an "anser" style putter with face loft and plumber's hosel, and I can't determine the impact loft... so I don't use it! A simple "cashin" style putter (Spalding T.P.M. 6, and it never wears out!) seems to be the best for me. How about you? Loft, no loft? Straight shaft, one bend shaft, screwy compound hosels? What's your "best" putter?

Good to have you back ... hope all's well .... wink.gif

 
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Geoff Mangum
(Login aceputt)
Owner
66.76.239.198

Impact Dynamics, not Putter Design

December 11 2015, 2:35 PM 

Dear sammy,

ANY putter will work well regardless of loft. The impact dynamics needs to be, in my opinion, well managed for a straight, smooth roll without hopping, but that is not determined in stone by ANY putter design. The GOLFER swings the tool, not the other way around.

All putters are essentially the same -- a FLAT slab on the end of a stick. That flat slab in my opinion generates a good, smooth roll when it impacts the back of the ball 1) moving straight thru the center of the ball, 2) with a SQUARE putter face orientation the same as at address, and 3) slightly rising vertically above the stroke line like a pendulum passing its bottom-most point in the stroke arc. By "slightly", in my experience, I mean a putter face that impacts the back of the ball a little below the equator and moves towards the opposite front of the ball to exit slightly above the equator. The fact that impact persists for a small time and space during impact also means that the pendulum arcing vertically upwards past the bottom point results in the exit point on the front of the ball being even slightly higher above the equator than identified by the initial putter-ball contact.

None of this is limited or prevented by putter face loft choices by designers, so long as the putter face can be sufficiently delofted dynamically to get rid of the designer's stupidly excessive loft. But unless the design loft exceeds 6-10 degrees, it's not that hard to get the good dynamics.

Cheers!

[linked image]

Geoff Mangum
Putting Coach and Theorist

PuttingZone.com -- over 200 Certified PuttingZone Coaches teaching in 21 Countries Worldwide and growing strong!
The best putting instruction in the history of the game -- integrating the Four Skills of putting (reading, aiming, stroking for line, and stroking for delivery pace) by combining all putting lore in history with modern science for physics, anatomy, physiology, biomechanics, motor sports teaching and learning and performance, and especially the NEW brain science of the non-conscious processes of perception and movement action in putting skill.


    
This message has been edited by aceputt from IP address 66.76.239.198 on Dec 11, 2015 2:36 PM


 
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semmetje
(Login semmetje)
82.170.231.234

Lie Angle

December 6 2015, 1:34 PM 

Hello Geoff
If I have the lie angle at 76* so right hand falls neutral to the grip my eyes are outside the ball.
I can shuffle a little backwards but then my lie angle flattens.
Or I can stand (all most) straight up and put my chin on my chest.

What is the best way to get my eyes above the ball change the lie angle or stand straight?

Is this because of my physics shorter legs longer torso?

Thank you for all your wisdom.


 
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Geoff Mangum
(Login aceputt)
Owner
66.76.239.198

Eyes Beyond Ball with Upright Lie Angle

December 11 2015, 2:14 PM 

Hi semmetje,

Not sure where you "absorbed" the notion that eyes beyond the ball are "bad" in some sense, but I can certainly imagine. For example, David Edel recently in Golf Magazine opined that if the eyes are beyond the ball, the golfer will "misperceive" the target. He's ignorant, and doesn't know the first thing about it, but someone at Golf magazine lacks critical intelligence. You can note that Edel in that piece doesn't attempt to say WHY it's bad or causes misperception and also doesn't attempt to explain how the putter face aim is CORRECTLY perceived -- since he is ignorant on both these scores.

There are two potential issues that "eyes beyond ball" MIGHT affect: target perception or where the putter face aims, and stroke. Just defining WHAT THE "EYES BEYOND BALL" MIGHT AFFECT is more than anyone else in golf seems capable of, as generally people expressing the opinion that "eyes beyond the ball" are "bad" or "not the Tour model" or some crap like that don't seem to know why they are even talking about the eyes.

David Edel in particular knows absolutely nothing about how a golfer can and should perceive accurately wherever any putter face aims, as I personally questioned him about this on many occasions and offered to teach him for free, but he concluded that if a golfer had the skill of perceiving where any putter face aims, then no one would buy his Edel putters -- which he sells with the promise that the design he selects for a golfer "bandaids" or "cures" that golfer's flawed perception process. Edel also admits that he does not base his putter designs on any scientific understanding of human perception, and instead relies upon APPARENT / ASSUMED "black box" association or correlation between Design #32 helping a "left-aimer" more than Design #46. Edel stated to me personally that if a golfer learned the skills that I was offering to teach him, that would zero out his sales pitch. Precisely. So he decided he would rather sell golfers his "snake oil" approach by promising his putters point themselves, and golfers can forego learning skills. So he DECLINED to learn how any golfer perceives where any putter face aims. That was in about 2008 or 2009. Typical.

The bottom line is that "eyes beyond ball" don't adversely affect either putter face aim perception OR stroke, provided the golfer has skill for these two.

As to perceiving target, the perception of putter face aim from the address posture beside the ball requires 1) running the eye beam in a straight line sideways along the green, and 2) matching this eye beam line to the 90-degree aim direction off any putter face. The main body-knowledge for performing 1) is to aim the eyeballs straight out of the face / skull 90 degrees from the head / skull's axis of rotation, so that when the head / skull is "turned" (rotated" to "look" or "face" down the line the putter face aims), this 90-degree relationship insures that the eye beam along the ground travels in a straight line sideways. This is GEOMETRY, not vision science. Any reasonable eyesight works as well as any other. AND this 90-degree relationship of the SKILL also works to generate a straight-sideways eye beam EVEN IF the "eyes are beyond the ball" looking back a bit to the feet. The head turn on the axis is still the same. Consequently, performing the SKILL correctly with the right body-knowledge means any golfer looking at any putter face even with "eyes beyond the ball" will NOT "misperceive" where the putter face aims and in fact will still "correctly perceive" the aim.

As to the stroke, the skill is to know that the arms and/or upper torso make the stroke motion, and anything above the base of the neck has NOTHING TO DO with generating the stroke. While it's possible that an unskillful golfer makes a "shoulder stroke" that is influenced by the angle of the neck to the surface (as in a neck-up angle promoting a stroke that is tilted "back" from vertical versus a neck-down angle promoting a stroke that is tilted "away" from vertical), that's not at all true for a SKILLFUL golfer. The skillful golfer deliberately orients the thru-stroke so it moves VERTICAL and STRAIGHT ALONG thru impact, in comparison to the green surface, thus delivering a straight and square impact down the line of aim -- EVEN IF the angle of the neck is other than parallel to the green surface, since the body is sufficiently capable of moving the putter head thru impact correctly at ANY neck angle.

Besides, allowing the up- or down-angle of the neck to guide the stroke into a tilted plane causes BAD strokes as this means that the sole of the putter thru impact will not run flat and flush with the surface, and therefore the putter face loft and toe-up or heel-up impact dynamics will mis-direct the line of the stroke. A skillful golfer would not allow that.

The supposition or "belief" or "claim" that "eyes beyond the ball" are "bad" is just another half-baked urban myth passed along as "accepted" by people in golf lacking the understanding of putting skills as well as the critical intelligence to think for themselves in evaluating what floats in the cesspool of putting instruction.

Cheers!

[linked image]

Geoff Mangum
Putting Coach and Theorist

PuttingZone.com -- over 200 Certified PuttingZone Coaches teaching in 21 Countries Worldwide and growing strong!
The best putting instruction in the history of the game -- integrating the Four Skills of putting (reading, aiming, stroking for line, and stroking for delivery pace) by combining all putting lore in history with modern science for physics, anatomy, physiology, biomechanics, motor sports teaching and learning and performance, and especially the NEW brain science of the non-conscious processes of perception and movement action in putting skill.


    
This message has been edited by aceputt from IP address 66.76.239.198 on Dec 11, 2015 2:47 PM


 
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