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Update....

March 14 2012 at 11:22 AM
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bbtocudl  (Login bbtocudl)

 
My beta was 0. Nothing even tried to implant. My RE suggested that we do a fresh cycle before the frozen since I am not getting any younger. I actually disagreed with him and thought the frozen would be our best bet so we didn't have to spend the money BUT once I received my embryo report today, I changed my mind. Out of 11 eggs retrieved, 7 made it to blast but they were all awful day 3 and not even sure how they made it to blast. The two they transferred were a 12 cell on day 3 (I even know better than to put any faith in that one) and a 7 cell grade 2 from day 3. All the other blasts were grade 3. We do have a frozen blast that was a 8 cell from day 3 that is in early blast and I think could be a potential. Gosh, how do so many eggs make it to blast but then are so awful? I don't understand why they just didn't stop growing. Anyway, my husband and I decided we would give it one last hurrah and then live with whatever we get from these eggs instead of doing a donor. I appreciate all the advice that you guys have given me here the last month. If you think I am doing the wrong thing, please share your thoughts. This is a huge expense for us but we really want a biological baby. Uggg.... tears are coming down as I write this...

 
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Kim
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I say go for another fresh round

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March 14 2012, 11:28 AM 

I know others said differently and do the FET and do agree, but fresh is a little better if you can get your lining thick enough!

 
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PhoebeMass
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Damn.

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March 14 2012, 11:44 AM 

Sorry for your news, bb. I was hoping things turned out for one of us.

You go with your heart, bb. You cannot make a wrong decision here. This is your and your DH's journey and yours alone. Do what is right for you. We don't have the money to be doing these final 3 rounds. We put alot on the line to do these at this age. Knowing the odds were incredibly stacked against us. But...this is our journey and I need to do this to have peace. You do what you need to do.

Big hugs and I'll be cheering for you. happy.gif

 
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Kim
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I agree too with Phoebe-go with your heart

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March 14 2012, 12:34 PM 

If you decide on a fresh round - have you thought of doing a day 2 transfer?

 
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(no login)

2 day transfer? What are the benefits? I haven't heard n/t

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March 14 2012, 1:43 PM 


 
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Kim
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Thought is to get embies back into a more natural environment quicker

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March 14 2012, 3:17 PM 

Some women have done 2 day transfers to help with quality. The thought is the embies do better.

 
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(Login miraclex2)

The natural environment by day 2 is fallopian tube

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March 14 2012, 4:39 PM 

not the uterus.

Also, there is nothing natural about your body just after high stim, in fact, it is medicated to death. It is just as unnatural if not more than the lab. There is no difference between day 2 and day 3. Most labs in the country can handle day 3 just fine.

 
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Jamie
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I have read that this is a holdover myth from the days before blast mediums

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March 14 2012, 11:02 PM 

When IVF first came out it was good to get embryos back in the woman ASAP because they weren't good at culturing them. They could never get them past day 2-3.

Now an excellent lab is just as good as the natural process and can mimic the mediums perfectly. I wouldn't worry about waiting to transfer for thsi reason.

 
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(no login)

I agree...

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March 14 2012, 1:30 PM 

We don't really have the money either but I think its what we need to do to get closure on this chapter. We have reached a point where we want to move forward with our lives. We hope it includes a new baby but if it doesn't, we can move on knowing we did everything we could to make it happen. No stone unturned. Are you going to cycle again in April?

 
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(Login miraclex2)

Some thoughts

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March 14 2012, 12:37 PM 

can you try to lower the dose a little bit? Make it a medium stim if possible?

If I remember correctly, you did 750IU daily, and that is ultra high stim, and many researches have shown that high dose meds could very well be damaging the egg chromosomes. You obviously have innately great egg quality or else you couldn't have ended up that many blasts. So your goal now is to get as many normal eggs as possible. I am also a bit surprised because SIRM-LV told me they would only go as high as 600 as of Jan 2011, because they think the marginal benefit of higher than 600 is negligible or even harmful - exact words of Dr. Fisch.

Another thing that my RE mentioned (be aware that he is a low stim FET guy so he is biased)is, during very high stim situation, the uterus is really not in its best state for reception, even if the lining seems fine, your hormone system is a mess. I know that Dr. Schoolcraft at CCRM concurs with this, because everyone I know who went there in the last 2 years was pushed to do FET in a mildly medicated transfer cycle where no stim drug is used, he actually explained his rationale that he believed a FET cycle enhances success rate.

 
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(Login miraclex2)

That was MIR, don't know how it came out to be anon

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March 14 2012, 12:38 PM 


 
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Kim
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Fresh vs. FET

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March 14 2012, 12:42 PM 

The problem is two-fold. If you decide fresh, the lining may not be great. If you freeze, there is loss of quality of the embryos. So which is better assuming the embryos are so-so quality?

 
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(Login miraclex2)

SIRM-LV has an excellent lab

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March 14 2012, 12:51 PM 

With great labs, you don't worry about the 1% thawing loss as compared to traditional 40% thawing loss. Once they make blasts, there is really no loss of quality other than thawing loss.

Also, the higher the stim dose, the more likely your endocrine system is heavily disrupted. So I'd say in a high stim situation, FET is more desirable. If you are medium or low stim, fresh cycle may be better.

 
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(no login)

Thats good info

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March 14 2012, 1:24 PM 

I think I would prefer to go medium stims if we do this. You are correct, I was on the 750 a day protocol and even two weeks later I am still feeling burnt out from the hormones. Never had that happen before on a lower protocol. With everything that I have read on this board, I am really starting to believe high stims doesn't really improve things. Even if it did get me a few more eggs but they are damaged due to the stims, then it doesn't matter anyway. I am going to investigate this with my RE. I am at SIRM NJ so I am hoping their lab is as good as the SIRM NJ.

 
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(Login miraclex2)

Remember to take at least 2 months off before another fresh

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March 14 2012, 1:31 PM 

This is a lesson I learnt the hard way - back to back medium to high stim will affect your next cycle's performance. Some doctor tell you this, some doctors don't. An ethical doctor will not even take you on knowing that you have just finished a high stim one month ago.


 
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Kim
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Really - 2 months off b/t cycles? What if moderate stims 225-300-would 1 month be enough?

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March 14 2012, 3:22 PM 


 
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MIR
(Login miraclex2)

for 300, you still need at least 6 weeks off between stim

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March 14 2012, 4:36 PM 

depending how meticulate the doctor is.

I did back to back 450/150 and 300/150, and I had the worst cycle of my life, pretty much everything died by day 3, which never happened to me before. I rested two months and then was able to get 2 day 3 8-cells.

I consulted with a few doctors regarding back to back cycles, and most of them contend that this hurts egg quality - your ovaries are overworked.

 
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(Login Raindrops1)

I'm sorry to hear about your BETA results. (DE ment.)

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March 14 2012, 1:09 PM 

You did retrieve a lot of eggs so I am hopeful you will receive a lot on this next cycle too. I haven't given up on your little frozen embryos. Even though they were not graded all that great they did make it to blast happy.gif My clinic told me they have seen some beautiful babies come from some not so great looking embryos.

If you are up for spending the money again then doing another fresh cycle might be a good idea. Then go from there. I would just hope if you want a baby no matter what that you will still be able to have DE as a backup option. But if you really want to try one more time with your OE, which it sure sounds like you do, then you need to finish that path first.

I don't have any great advice as to which path you should choose. We paid for two OE IVF cycles before moving on to DE so I know how expensive it is. But I don't regret trying. And only you and your DH can decide what the dollar amount is you are willing to spend.

Wishing you luck on this next cycle!

 
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(no login)

Thanks for the support

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March 14 2012, 1:28 PM 

in choosing another fresh cycle. I just needed to hear that I am not crazy for giving it one last shot. I think I have one last cycle in me. It will be hard but maybe medium stims will make it a little easier to do. I appreciate everyone's thoughts. Will keep you posted.

 
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jkl
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agree about lower stims

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March 14 2012, 2:11 PM 


And I would probably just transfer everything on day 3. Higher-oder multiples are very unlikely after 40 (not sure what your age is). I transfered 4 on day 3 and 1 stuck (at 39). It was low stims, my high stim produced many more eggs but only 5 embryos but none stuck, so I am a believer in lower stims. GL.

jkl

 
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Jamie
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I still think you have a good chance--here's what I would do

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March 14 2012, 7:04 PM 

This will be pricey but I would rather spend money now than look back on this with regret:

1) Give your ovaries a month or two (load the CoQ10 and any other egg quality supplement stuff you know of--consider inositol and melatonin) then do a fresh cycle. I agree, use medium stims--you seem to stim well and have a good number of follicles so you don't want to go too low. Maybe 450 or around there? Up to you and your RE. I think your stim level was just way too high.

2) Don't do a transfer, but let everything try to go to blast.

3) Have your clinic biopsy the blasts (they can take a cell or two from the part that forms the placenta) and send the cells out for microarray chromosomal testing (in which they test every chromosome). Assuming your other blasts are vitrified, have them thaw those, biopsy, and refreeze (I just had this done on some blasts I had vitrified in 2010).

4) Then they can tell you if any of the blasts have normal chromosomes. If you have at least one I'd start doing FETs one at a time with everything that is normal. If you don't have any then you can decide if you want to cycle again.

This will be about $5K more than a normal fresh cycle but at least you will know whether your blasts have potential and can make an informed decision.

Wishing you the best!

 
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