New here and rambling...another try w OE/DE? (many losses, child ment)June 25 2012 at 1:02 AM
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|ajc (Login desperate4no2)|
Hi, I just had my 2nd IVF and after the CGH results and my 5 m/c over the past 5 years, I am finally processing the fact that I may need to consider DE. I just had my transfer yesterday, but the CGH results were so bad--NO normals, all 10 eggs had issues, most "complex abnormal" and they transferred the one monosomy 15, even though it's very, very unlikely to be normal. I believe the quote was "they are almost always abnormal".
I guess I was just in a completely naive-place all these years of trying (and looking back,why didn't I move on to IVF sooner??!). I always have high amount of follicles (PCOS), FSH 18 mos ago was 7, I respond well to the meds, have reg periods and usually have good results from the retrieval as far as no of mature eggs and fert rate etc.. The CGH was very eye-opening and made me realize that that plus my 5 m/c are not normal, ratio-wise, even for AMA.
The 'slap in the face' I got yesterday either took the hope out of my sails or slapped some sense into me, I'm not sure which. DH is deflated, but has some hope that we can still do it, he feels it is a numbers game-- the emotional cost of trying OE again may be tough to muster for me and also the cost! We have been out of pocket for these 2.5 years of fertility bills and I just think that cutting to the higher-result possibility may be the way to go. I am feeling desperate, I guess! I am not sure what I'm looking for, maybe hope or support or just being around other women with similar struggles may be helpful to me. All of my friends who battled IF, have had their babies already and I'm running out of support systems (although, 3 of them had 'oops' babies after they got their IVF babies!)
Thanks for listening, I am all over the place right now....
Me: 41 PCOS (treated with Met), heterozygous MTHFR and bad eggs apparently, immunology reports=normal
DH: 46, everything OK
4 yo DD
Dx'd pcos at age 35
I missed m/c at age 36
1 clomid CP at age 36
2nd round clomid at age 37= dd, now 4
TTC on our own at 38 for 6 mos
Started clomid again at 38.5 yrs, for several cycles, then added clomid + inject at 39
all in all, 10 clomid (2 with inject added) cycles = 9 bfn's and 1 more m/c
Consult with Dr Zouves at age 41, seems hopeful re: my AFC and response to stims, all immunology seems normal, but treating me for RPL with aspirin, lovenox and intralipids
IVF #1 at 41 w Antagon protocol (20 follies, 18 eggs, all mature, 14 fert. PGS= 4 normals/4 swings) all 4 normals tfer'd =CP
FET #1 4/2012 t-fer'ed 2 expanded blasts "swing" embryos = CP
IVF #2 6/2012 20 follicles, 13 eggs, 10 fertilized. After CGH- NO normals! One monosomy 15 embryo transferred, but low to no hope
I'm considering DE, Dh may want to push for another IVF with my eggs
I get itNo score for this post
|June 25 2012, 10:20 AM |
This whole process is draining. I am moving to my 5th IVF with OE, this time Im doing Mini at new hope. Im about to be 42 and also losing hope. We are all hear to support and just remember, you are not alonfe, and there is a plan...
thank youNo score for this post
|June 25 2012, 1:47 PM |
I really appreciate hearing from you. This journey is so isolating and scary. I wish you much luck!! I do a lot of genealogy and saw that my great, great grandmother had her last child at 45-another reminder that those 'golden eggs' are there..
Hi AJC. (children and DE ment)No score for this post
|June 25 2012, 3:16 PM |
I usually post on the donor eggs boards but look on this board too. It is hard to decide when you have tried enough with your own eggs. If you can afford it and your DH really wants to try one more time then that is fine. But if you move on to DE and have a baby you will fall totally in love with that baby.
I did two OE IVF cycles with my own eggs at age 43. I never got the high number of eggs that you got but we were hopeful and there was a chance. Then I moved on to a guaranteed DE cycle. I could not risk any more money and my odds of success with OE were extremely low at that point.
Once my DS was born I fell totally in love with him. The love I have for him is just as strong as the love I have for my naturally conceived DD. If you only have enough money for one more cycle then I think you should move on to DE if you are ready. I personally was not emotionally ready so it made for an emotionally difficult pregnancy. But now that my DS is here I absolutely think he is the cutest, sweetest little guy ever. I wish I would have had him earlier as I wasted a few years being so very sad.
thank you (children and DE)No score for this post
|June 25 2012, 3:35 PM |
I love it! Thank you for sharing your story!
I am personally ready to just move on to DE, I have reached that desperate point of my previous fears/resistance being less powerful than my fear of never having another child. We could find the funds for another OE cycle and then DE, but we've spent so much already (literally shuddering at what we've spent) and I feel for me, it's getting to be financially too draining for us to keep going when the results over 2.5 years have been overwhelming evidence that I do not seem to have good quality eggs.
Did you do your DE cycle near you or did you have to travel? The thought of being local and sticking with my doctor is very tempting, but it seems so much less expensive to go to a frozen egg bank (but I literally know nothing about them, I only just opened my mind to this yesterday). I think that the guaranteed DE cycle at my clinic is 2x what an IVF cycle is. Does that sound right?
I am thrilled to hear that you found such sweet success. My close friend has a 2 mos old bundle of joy from a donor sperm/egg from a clinic in South Africa-wonderful!
I just need to decide to try and convince DH of this, or give it another go with OE and then move on to DE. The cost of doing both is staggering. I just keep telling myself that many people spend $$ on their kitchen remodels or new cars. I am instead choosing to embrace my tiny, unattractive kitchen and 10 year old car, I guess!
thank you again for your input!
|This message has been edited by desperate4no2 on Jun 25, 2012 3:36 PM|
wonderful storyNo score for this post
|June 25 2012, 5:17 PM |
Well just keep looking at your options.No score for this post
|June 25 2012, 11:05 PM |
Yes, my guaranteed DE cycle was about the cost of two cycles. It is expensive but less stressful as you will either get a baby or a refund. I also have a small kitchen and an 8 year old car. But a new kitchen or car wouldn't mean anything to me without my baby.
I don't know anything about frozen egg banks. I used a local clinic and didn't travel. If you post on the pink pregnant or parenting after DE board you will see that some of those women cycled in other countries too. I wish you luck in whatever you decide to do.
One thing stands out to me...(DE's mtd)No score for this post
|June 25 2012, 5:00 PM |
First, I just want to say that I am sorry that your last cycle went the way that it did. One thing strikes me as odd about your situation though. The IVF before this one you were able to get 4 normals yet none this cycle. Did your protocol change? The ability to make 4 normals is great. I just wonder if the reason for you getting no normnals this cycle is a change of protocol or something else at work. If I had just recently had 4 normals, I might give it another shot with my own eggs. I also would have said to look into immune issues since you had a CP with 4 pregnancies but I see you go to Zouves. Has he looked at DQ-ALpha and HLA matches? I know that ladies with PCOS often have too much testosterone in their system so perhaps a protocol with very little LH in it would be beneficial. Personally,I've moved onto DE so I understand where you may be at, but I am much older than you. I have to say, in your position, at your age, I would likely give it another shot with my OE's but I totally get that when you've had enough..you've had enough. Good luck whatever you decide.
Re: One thing stands out to me...(DE's mtd)No score for this post
|June 25 2012, 6:14 PM |
Thank you for your response--all this "talking" is really helping me process!
I didn't clarify that my IVF #1 was only PGD testing so that was only the top 9 abnormalities, whereas the CGH report for IVF #2 showed that I had 9 out of 10 complex abnormal plus the one with just one missing chromosome (the best of a bad lot-haha). We did antagon protocol again this time -bravelle + menopur +ganirelix, dex, aspirin, lovenox (is that it??) plus he added doxycycline for 10 days and probiotics, which we didn't do last time. I read on some msg board that Dr. Sher wrote that he didn't like Bravelle/Menopur so now that has got my head spinning if I do OE again, will switching to gonal f etc..make a difference..?
Yes, we have had all the immunology testing done. I thought I would have had something along those lines, but all the crazy amounts of testing came out within normal range--The DQ alpha match came out okay, too. I do have hashimoto's which my acupuncturist thinks could be more of a problem, but Dr Zouves is saying it's egg quality, and is treating me with intralipids/doxy/dex etc as though I do have other issues so my bases are covered, so to speak.
I just can't fathom how I have produced so many eggs over the years/treatments and none of them are normal?? He said it is like a high sperm count man with low?no? morphology. That makes sense. He was pretty grave about future prognosis for my eggs, but the fact that he didn't shut the door in my face as far as another try, makes me consider it (plus DH would like to use OE), but if I can resolve the cost in my head (of OE plus having DE as a contingency plan) then I may give it another go. My heart is saying cut to the chase, but there is a little, tiny inkling in me that is wondering...
I wonder if my protocol would change if we did it again--little LH you mentioned etc..I need to learn more about DE as well. I have scheduled that consult with them already for next week.
Thanks for responding..I so appreciate the input.
You must be from the Bay AreaNo score for this post
|June 25 2012, 6:11 PM |
since you are going to Zouves
I consulted with him and did all the checkups but never moved ahead because I don't want to blast my ovaries with conventional IVF protocols any more, I am a poor responder/DOR.
I am a year older than you and I have a far worse fertility profile - FSH now higher than 10, and never got more than 6 eggs even after 5 rounds of conventional IVF although I did find success on first try out of sheer luck.
I am currently committing 18 rounds of mini-IVF at a SoCal clinic and I am flying out every month for this (currently in my 5th round). If it doesn't work, I am going to be happy with just DD and forgo DE. It is my best effort and if it doesn't work, so be it.
I think with your FSH, AFC and probably pretty decent AMH, you ought to have a pretty good shot at OE, I would love to have your numbers if I could
Re: You must be from the Bay AreaNo score for this post
|June 25 2012, 6:23 PM |
Yes, bay area here! I didn't know about the mini-IVF, this is interesting to me. I think that it's great that you found a 'plan'! It feels like such a battle coming up with a plan, at least you are in it and "doing it" and yes, it certainly sounds like a best effort! Does this mean you bank each embryo collected and put them all in at a later date, or is that something else?
This is such a warm reminder for me that there are all kinds of creative ways of trying for that end result--I hope to learn more from you all here.
best of luck!!
I am doing back to back cyclesNo score for this post
|June 25 2012, 6:43 PM |
and just banking blasts. Grant it, blasts are not necessarily normal, but it is the least disrupting weeding process I can think of, and each cycle is very cheap, so it doesn't break the bank, as opposed to the $20K cycle I would have done at Zouves or $30K cycle at CCRM.
I am using a surrogate at the same time because I lost my uterus somewhere along the journey
So I will be banking while she transfers. If I still had my uterus, I would have banked and then transfer at the end of this all.
I personally think that my egg quality has improved drastically since I ditched conventional and went mini. It doesn't mean that I can produce normal embryos since I have not tested them yet, but I am able to bring all my mature embryos to past morula stage, as opposed to before, almost 90% of my embryos couldn't be fertilized or just died before day 3.
I choose to believe that I still have one or two golden eggs within me, I just need to find a way to get to it.
Re: I am doing back to back cyclesNo score for this post
|June 25 2012, 8:20 PM |
Oooh! That's fascinating! Way to think outside the box-I need to open my mind to all kinds of possibilities like this. I just think "I love my doctor/clinic (and they are convenient), do what they say", but really, it's best to investigate all kinds of options. I think that's amazing that your embryos have become more mature this way! Really, really amazing and exciting! I know you are not "there" yet, but I'm thrilled for your progress so far...thanks for sharing!
Another thing I can think of is, PGD hurt your embryosNo score for this post
|June 25 2012, 7:00 PM |
You have 4 embryos PGD normal, and as far as I know, PGD has been proven to hurt embryos, since they are done on day 3 embryos. I am pretty sure that if you had 4 CCS or PGS normal embryos, you would have had at least one live birth (the number suggests so). You are not the first person that I read about with PGD normal embryos ending in CP, I have read way too many similar stories from older women.
I am thinking that you shouldn't do PGD at Zouves, it is not the best place for doing genetic testing. I myself debated a lot whether I should do day 3 PGS at my clinic since they just started offering it a few months ago, and I decided against being the guinea pig.
My strategy is, grow blast, and only transfer the highest grade blasts first, because there are researches showing that normal ratio is positively correlated with blast grading (not correlated with day 3 embryo grading). The normal ratio could be as high as 50% for our age group for the 5AA and 6AA, and it is a worthwhile bet.
Another thinking is, I know Zouves is VERY aggressive in his dosage. He gave me the most aggressive dosage among all my consults. High stim is known to cause more aneuploidy.
Just some food for thought.
|This message has been edited by miraclex2 on Jun 25, 2012 7:02 PM|
Re: Another thing I can think of is, PGD hurt your embryosNo score for this post
|June 25 2012, 8:33 PM |
Very interesting..I have no way to compare since this is all I've done. I did 150 bravelle am/pm and menopur 75 per day for 6.5 days-is that aggressive? I have no clue...I was so disappointed after this recent transfer to find that my 18 follicles only came up with 13 eggs (whereas 6 mos earlier, all 18 were there and all mature). I just don't know if that cycle or this one was a fluke (or all cycles are random??) so it's so hard for me to know what end is up...
This is very interesting because my PGS 'swing embryos' from the FET cycle were the best looking--they were both expanded blasts and I also had a CP. The normals from the fresh cycle were sluggish- 2 EB and 2 morulas.
I have thought about just transferring a bunch of the best looking ones, something to think about...
6.5 days of stim? You are doomed for failure!No score for this post
|June 25 2012, 8:44 PM |
the stim days are way too short!! That was how I got crappy eggs for the last 4 times on conventional protocols. No, your protocol is not aggressive, but you should have cancelled with that few days of stim, there are no recorded live birth for our age group with 6 days or below.
That was a fluke!
For 40+ age group, longer stim = good newsNo score for this post
|June 25 2012, 8:47 PM |
short stim = terrible news, should cancel if under 8 days.
I learned the hard way after FOUR tries. I paid dearly with my ovaries and $$$ for this little tip. One of the reasons I am churning out much better eggs is because my stim time right now is between 12-14 days on average.
Re: For 40+ age group, longer stim = good newsNo score for this post
|June 27 2012, 4:30 AM |
I didn't know this. Does that mean less mature eggs or that the mature eggs themselves are in bad shape if they came about through a shorter cycle?
yes, even mature eggs have different qualityNo score for this post
|June 27 2012, 12:35 PM |
|oops, I can't count|
Re: 6.5 days of stim? You are doomed for failure!No score for this post
|June 25 2012, 10:08 PM |
Sorry, I can't do simple math, apparently... I had to recount and I started stims Sat am and finished Sat am so I guess that is 8 days? I got confused when I started taking ganirelix, forgetting that I was on stims at the same time. I wonder if less days is due to the PCOS, people don't want to push it for fear of OHSS? Hmm...this is all interesting to think about. If we do OE, I would like to consider mixing something up next time!