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I'm having trouble with my redwork quilt. ...:o( ...

November 16 2008 at 7:58 PM

  (Premier Login DaisyLove)
Forum Owner

Sometimes I want to give up sewing and quilting. I can never get anything perfect. There's always something that I do that's wrong! I going through a bad rut here. I finished my redwork quilt wall hanging and was quite pleased with it until I hung it up. Then I realized my edges weren't straight. I used bias tape for the edging, now I have to redo 2 vertical sides. Blah!

Also, I tried to sew a skirt today with a little more pricier material then I usually buy and it didn't turn out ... blah again! I have to try and fix it so it's wearable if that's possible!

How long does it take to get good at these things?

 



Daisy 2bnii
~Hear O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might~
[linked image] [linked image]
Daisy and Friends Craft/Recipe/Fellowship forum
http://www.network54.com/Index/72531>
You are welcome to come and join us

My Blog http://sewingquiltscookingandotherfunstuff.blogspot.com/

>


    
This message has been edited by DaisyLove on Nov 16, 2008 8:00 PM


 
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(Login lacemitts)

:0(

November 16 2008, 8:18 PM 

I am sorry, but you are leaps ahead of me doing these things. Hang in there!

[linked image]



1BFii
Hair: All natural dark brown and silver.
Washing: Twice a week, scalp wash, with letting shampoo run through length. Condition from ears on down. Cold as I can stand it final rinse.
Shampoo/Conditioner: I have switched to organic. Aubrey's Honeysuckle Rose Shampoo and Conditioner. Nature's Gate Organics Biotin Shampoo and Conditioner.
Comb, never brush.
Kind Regards,
lacemitts

 
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Jules
(Login CrowningGlory)

Can you

November 17 2008, 2:26 AM 

post a photo of the quilt? Then I might be able to figure out why it wasn't straight? Does it have borders and if so, did you measure across the quilt to get the border measurement rather than measuring the sides (which stretch and are therefore inaccurate)?

As to skirts, I've given up sewing skirts. Every time I wear my wraparound skirt I think about taking it apart and redoing it. It's not perfect and it bugs me that it's not perfect.

How long does it take to get this right?

For me: forever. Sigh

Frenchbraid-1.jpg

DSCF0030_edited-1-1.jpg 6th_December2006-1-2-1-1.jpg DSCF0110-2-1.jpg DSCF0007-1.jpg DSCF2367-2.jpg tailbone.jpg HairSept-1-1.jpg hairaftercut-1-1.jpg

Progress from June 2006 - October 2008

2a/M/ii
Mid-Dark brown with natural red and silver highights; fringe/bangs.
Starting length 25"/62.5cm
Current length 34.5"/88cm
Goal 36"/90cm

Current routine: (Trying to keep it as simple as possible): CWC on the weekend after One-hour Pre-wash Treatment, scalp washes every second day, occasionally conditioning of very ends mid-week using small amount of conditioner mixed with boiling water and a drop or two of oil; oiling 2-3 nights per week; updos or braids for day (usually), braids and/or sock curls for bed; S&D when I think of it, dusting every 8-12 weeks.

Shampoo: Organic Instincts or A'Kin diluted with herbal tea (rosemary and chamomile)
Conditioners: A'Kin Protein or Moisturising Conditioner
Oils: Coconut, almond, olive, either alone or blended 2:1:1
Other: ACV infused with herbs (depending upon availability I use a selection of lavender, rosemary, cinnamon, sage, and thyme); BBB; wooden comb; pure aloe vera gel for smoothing flyaways and fixing hair in place.
Treatments: JJJ's One-Hour Pre-wash Treatment using 1/6 cup boiling water, 2/3 tsp oil blend, 1/6 cup conditioner.

'Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfailing beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight.' 1 Peter 3:3-4

On Eagles' Wings (My Blog)

The Quilt Room (My Quilting Blog)

 
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(Premier Login DaisyLove)
Forum Owner

Sure ...

November 17 2008, 6:14 PM 

You know Jules to be honest, I didn't measure, I didn't think I had to with bias tape. Any way measuring wouldn't help I don't think because the edges of the quilt itself isn't straight ... I don't know why, but it's typical as I can seem to do anything straight. I took a picture but I'm too embarrassed to post it Jules. I'm going to try and fix it tomorrow.

 

 



Daisy 2bnii
~Hear O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might~
[linked image] [linked image]
Daisy and Friends Craft/Recipe/Fellowship forum
http://www.network54.com/Index/72531
You are welcome to come and join us

My Blog http://sewingquiltscookingandotherfunstuff.blogspot.com/


 
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teacup01
(no login)

Daisy don't you dare

November 17 2008, 9:51 AM 

give up anything, just like people never being completely perfect neither will the things we sew or crochet, its all trial and error, but we are always fixable and so is the things we make. Hang in there my friend you have a passion and a love for this stuff don't give up its really fun to make things and get the joy plus satisfaction of doing it.

tea

 
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(Premier Login DaisyLove)
Forum Owner

Just a ..

November 17 2008, 6:16 PM 

little frustrated Tea. It sure would be nice to have someone around that could show me the proper way to do some of these things. I won't give up though, today my dh mentioned to me that I should make a quilt for each of the children's beds .. even though he knows how uneven my redwork quilt is.

 



Daisy 2bnii
~Hear O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might~
[linked image] [linked image]
Daisy and Friends Craft/Recipe/Fellowship forum
http://www.network54.com/Index/72531
You are welcome to come and join us

My Blog http://sewingquiltscookingandotherfunstuff.blogspot.com/


 
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Jules
(Login CrowningGlory)

I think you're

November 17 2008, 11:01 PM 

doing marvellously for someone who is trying to teach herself. Some things are easier learnt by watching others.

If you like, email me a photo and I'll see if I can figure out the problem. I'm no expert - my quilts are improving - but I might be able to help.

Frenchbraid-1.jpg

DSCF0030_edited-1-1.jpg 6th_December2006-1-2-1-1.jpg DSCF0110-2-1.jpg DSCF0007-1.jpg DSCF2367-2.jpg tailbone.jpg HairSept-1-1.jpg hairaftercut-1-1.jpg

Progress from June 2006 - October 2008

2a/M/ii
Mid-Dark brown with natural red and silver highights; fringe/bangs.
Starting length 25"/62.5cm
Current length 34.5"/88cm
Goal 36"/90cm

Current routine: (Trying to keep it as simple as possible): CWC on the weekend after One-hour Pre-wash Treatment, scalp washes every second day, occasionally conditioning of very ends mid-week using small amount of conditioner mixed with boiling water and a drop or two of oil; oiling 2-3 nights per week; updos or braids for day (usually), braids and/or sock curls for bed; S&D when I think of it, dusting every 8-12 weeks.

Shampoo: Organic Instincts or A'Kin diluted with herbal tea (rosemary and chamomile)
Conditioners: A'Kin Protein or Moisturising Conditioner
Oils: Coconut, almond, olive, either alone or blended 2:1:1
Other: ACV infused with herbs (depending upon availability I use a selection of lavender, rosemary, cinnamon, sage, and thyme); BBB; wooden comb; pure aloe vera gel for smoothing flyaways and fixing hair in place.
Treatments: JJJ's One-Hour Pre-wash Treatment using 1/6 cup boiling water, 2/3 tsp oil blend, 1/6 cup conditioner.

'Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfailing beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight.' 1 Peter 3:3-4

On Eagles' Wings (My Blog)

The Quilt Room (My Quilting Blog)

 
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(Premier Login DaisyLove)
Forum Owner

Thank you Jules ...

November 18 2008, 9:00 AM 

I just recently seen a youtube video on hand quilting ... it's much different then I thought! I might try it again, I would really like to make nice designs on my quilt and I'm limited on my sewing machine, as it's hard to maneover the quilt around, especially if it's bigger then a wallhanging. It helps alot to actually see it done.

Last night I got a straight board ( I need a yard stick!) and cut the edges right off with my rotary cutter, bias tape and all, and I think it's straight now.  That's probably not the way to go about it ... but it's the only solution I could come up with. Now I'll sew the bias tape back on and it should be better now ... I hope.

I think my first quilt, was the best one I've ever made so far. The fishing one is nice, but it's for a guy, so I can't get all excited over it. I so badly want to make something really, really nice!

Here is the youtube video. Is this how you quilt too? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAiBobVNpVY>



Daisy 2bnii
~Hear O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might~
[linked image] [linked image]
Daisy and Friends Craft/Recipe/Fellowship forum
http://www.network54.com/Index/72531
You are welcome to come and join us

My Blog http://sewingquiltscookingandotherfunstuff.blogspot.com/


 
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(Premier Login DaisyLove)
Forum Owner

Okay it's a flop ...

November 18 2008, 10:49 AM 

It's just one of those things I guess. I sewed back on the bias tape and although it looks a little better, it's still not a straight quilt. Here's a picture of it, as soon as I can replace it with something nicer, I will.

redwork.jpg 

It's got the 'wave' thing going on, probably not the best way to hang a quilt.

 



Daisy 2bnii
~Hear O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might~
[linked image] [linked image]
Daisy and Friends Craft/Recipe/Fellowship forum
http://www.network54.com/Index/72531>
You are welcome to come and join us

My Blog http://sewingquiltscookingandotherfunstuff.blogspot.com/

>


    
This message has been edited by DaisyLove on Nov 18, 2008 10:52 AM


 
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teacup01
(no login)

Ummmmm

November 18 2008, 11:57 AM 

[linked image] you are way to hard on yourself Daisy, I think it is absolutely beautiful!!! a lot of hard work and love has gone into that quilt and I think it is perfect! Now in one of my houses that I live in, it had a quilt rack similar to yours on the wall but it had a shelf above it that was attached. It was wooden, but the rod didn't have those little quilts, I never hung a quilt on it as I didn't have one that size, but I have seen pictures where the quilt was put over the rod and not hung by clips, maybe if you are not satisfied with the way it is hanging you could do it that way. I think its great though the way it is. Please don't be so hard on yourself, you are doing a wonderful job.


tea

 
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lacemitts
(Login lacemitts)

Daisy

November 18 2008, 4:58 PM 

I love it! I wish I could do half as good as a job!

[linked image]



1BFii
Hair: All natural dark brown and silver.
Washing: Twice a week, scalp wash, with letting shampoo run through length. Condition from ears on down. Cold as I can stand it final rinse.
Shampoo/Conditioner: I have switched to organic. Aubrey's Honeysuckle Rose Shampoo and Conditioner. Nature's Gate Organics Biotin Shampoo and Conditioner.
Comb, never brush.
Kind Regards,
lacemitts

 
 Respond to this message   

Jules
(Login CrowningGlory)

I'm going to be honest

November 18 2008, 10:51 PM 

I cannot see what the problem is with the quilt. The bottom looks wavy but the squares seem to be even so I suspect it's because of the way it's hanging.

Daisy, you are too hard on yourself.

Look at this quilt. It's got a wavy thing going on too and when I fold this quilt into quarters the corners don't match up:



But do you see that? No, you just see the overall effect. The number of people that have come into my house and have told me that they just love this quilt is unbelievable. And would you believe, the wallpaper has a vertical stripe so you would think the fact that the quilt's not square would be more noticeable, but it's not.

A tip for future quilts (though you probably don't need it) would be to take a few minutes to measure the width of the border all around to check that it's even on all sides before adding the bias tape. I wonder about that tape too - did it perhaps stretch? I know purchased bias tape varies in quality and perhaps yours stretched as you were sewing it on and caused you to be less than happy with the result.

But really, you shouldn't be beating yourself up over this quilt. You've produced a lovely quilt and you should rightly be proud of it.

Frenchbraid-1.jpg

DSCF0030_edited-1-1.jpg 6th_December2006-1-2-1-1.jpg DSCF0110-2-1.jpg DSCF0007-1.jpg DSCF2367-2.jpg tailbone.jpg HairSept-1-1.jpg hairaftercut-1-1.jpg

Progress from June 2006 - October 2008

2a/M/ii
Mid-Dark brown with natural red and silver highights; fringe/bangs.
Starting length 25"/62.5cm
Current length 34.5"/88cm
Goal 36"/90cm

Current routine: (Trying to keep it as simple as possible): CWC on the weekend after One-hour Pre-wash Treatment, scalp washes every second day, occasionally conditioning of very ends mid-week using small amount of conditioner mixed with boiling water and a drop or two of oil; oiling 2-3 nights per week; updos or braids for day (usually), braids and/or sock curls for bed; S&D when I think of it, dusting every 8-12 weeks.

Shampoo: Organic Instincts or A'Kin diluted with herbal tea (rosemary and chamomile)
Conditioners: A'Kin Protein or Moisturising Conditioner
Oils: Coconut, almond, olive, either alone or blended 2:1:1
Other: ACV infused with herbs (depending upon availability I use a selection of lavender, rosemary, cinnamon, sage, and thyme); BBB; wooden comb; pure aloe vera gel for smoothing flyaways and fixing hair in place.
Treatments: JJJ's One-Hour Pre-wash Treatment using 1/6 cup boiling water, 2/3 tsp oil blend, 1/6 cup conditioner.

'Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfailing beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight.' 1 Peter 3:3-4

On Eagles' Wings (My Blog)

The Quilt Room (My Quilting Blog)

 
 Respond to this message   


(Premier Login DaisyLove)
Forum Owner

Do you ladies really ...

November 19 2008, 1:29 PM 

mean that and aren't just being nice? My dh always tells me that you ladies will always be nice no matter what I make. So are you all being truthful?

I guess I have a vision for everything that I make, and when it doesn't match the vision, I get really disappointed.

Jules- thanks for that tip, I'll make sure I do that next time! AND, I love that quilt you made and no I can't see anything wrong with it at all, it looks perfect to me and I even clicked on the picture and enlarged it and still couldn't see any flaws in it.



Daisy 2bnii
~Hear O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might~
[linked image] [linked image]
Daisy and Friends Craft/Recipe/Fellowship forum
http://www.network54.com/Index/72531
You are welcome to come and join us

My Blog http://sewingquiltscookingandotherfunstuff.blogspot.com/


 
 Respond to this message   

Jules
(Login CrowningGlory)

I'm not just

November 19 2008, 2:42 PM 

being nice. Our own imperfections seem to stare us in the face but no one else sees them.

Let me point out some of the faults of the quilt I posted:

1. The bottom edge is not even and the corners are caught up in the binding and have puckered.

2. One side edge waves in and out. It's the left side when you look at it. Line the edge up with the stipe in the wallpaper and you'll see what I mean.

3. There's excess fabric in those large blue triangles. Quilting has eased a lot of it out but if you look closely you can see that the quilt doesn't lie flat - and that's why.

I went to a quilt show recently and was apalled at the standard but all around me were people going Ooh and Aah over the quilts. It's the overall effect that most people notice - not the tiny little imperfections (at the quilt show I was looking for a high standard of workmanship which is why I noticed the mistakes).



Frenchbraid-1.jpg

DSCF0030_edited-1-1.jpg 6th_December2006-1-2-1-1.jpg DSCF0110-2-1.jpg DSCF0007-1.jpg DSCF2367-2.jpg tailbone.jpg HairSept-1-1.jpg hairaftercut-1-1.jpg

Progress from June 2006 - October 2008

2a/M/ii
Mid-Dark brown with natural red and silver highights; fringe/bangs.
Starting length 25"/62.5cm
Current length 34.5"/88cm
Goal 36"/90cm

Current routine: (Trying to keep it as simple as possible): CWC on the weekend after One-hour Pre-wash Treatment, scalp washes every second day, occasionally conditioning of very ends mid-week using small amount of conditioner mixed with boiling water and a drop or two of oil; oiling 2-3 nights per week; updos or braids for day (usually), braids and/or sock curls for bed; S&D when I think of it, dusting every 8-12 weeks.

Shampoo: Organic Instincts or A'Kin diluted with herbal tea (rosemary and chamomile)
Conditioners: A'Kin Protein or Moisturising Conditioner
Oils: Coconut, almond, olive, either alone or blended 2:1:1
Other: ACV infused with herbs (depending upon availability I use a selection of lavender, rosemary, cinnamon, sage, and thyme); BBB; wooden comb; pure aloe vera gel for smoothing flyaways and fixing hair in place.
Treatments: JJJ's One-Hour Pre-wash Treatment using 1/6 cup boiling water, 2/3 tsp oil blend, 1/6 cup conditioner.

'Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfailing beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight.' 1 Peter 3:3-4

On Eagles' Wings (My Blog)

The Quilt Room (My Quilting Blog)

 
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Jules
(Login CrowningGlory)

A Hint

November 19 2008, 2:45 PM 

If you're still dissatsified with the lower edge you could hang some little trinkets to help weigh it down like what I've done here:



Frenchbraid-1.jpg

DSCF0030_edited-1-1.jpg 6th_December2006-1-2-1-1.jpg DSCF0110-2-1.jpg DSCF0007-1.jpg DSCF2367-2.jpg tailbone.jpg HairSept-1-1.jpg hairaftercut-1-1.jpg

Progress from June 2006 - October 2008

2a/M/ii
Mid-Dark brown with natural red and silver highights; fringe/bangs.
Starting length 25"/62.5cm
Current length 34.5"/88cm
Goal 36"/90cm

Current routine: (Trying to keep it as simple as possible): CWC on the weekend after One-hour Pre-wash Treatment, scalp washes every second day, occasionally conditioning of very ends mid-week using small amount of conditioner mixed with boiling water and a drop or two of oil; oiling 2-3 nights per week; updos or braids for day (usually), braids and/or sock curls for bed; S&D when I think of it, dusting every 8-12 weeks.

Shampoo: Organic Instincts or A'Kin diluted with herbal tea (rosemary and chamomile)
Conditioners: A'Kin Protein or Moisturising Conditioner
Oils: Coconut, almond, olive, either alone or blended 2:1:1
Other: ACV infused with herbs (depending upon availability I use a selection of lavender, rosemary, cinnamon, sage, and thyme); BBB; wooden comb; pure aloe vera gel for smoothing flyaways and fixing hair in place.
Treatments: JJJ's One-Hour Pre-wash Treatment using 1/6 cup boiling water, 2/3 tsp oil blend, 1/6 cup conditioner.

'Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfailing beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight.' 1 Peter 3:3-4

On Eagles' Wings (My Blog)

The Quilt Room (My Quilting Blog)

 
 Respond to this message   


(Premier Login DaisyLove)
Forum Owner

What a neat idea!!!

November 19 2008, 10:12 PM 

Thanks for sharing that with me!

Daisy 2bnii
~Hear O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might~
[linked image] [linked image]
Daisy and Friends Craft/Recipe/Fellowship forum
http://www.network54.com/Index/72531
You are welcome to come and join us

My Blog http://sewingquiltscookingandotherfunstuff.blogspot.com/


 
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(Premier Login DaisyLove)
Forum Owner

Now see ...

November 19 2008, 10:13 PM 

I thought quilts at quilt shows had to be perfect! That's kind of good to know they aren't ...lol!

Daisy 2bnii
~Hear O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might~
[linked image] [linked image]
Daisy and Friends Craft/Recipe/Fellowship forum
http://www.network54.com/Index/72531
You are welcome to come and join us

My Blog http://sewingquiltscookingandotherfunstuff.blogspot.com/


 
 Respond to this message   

lacemitts
(Login lacemitts)

Okay, I will be BRUTALLY honest!

November 19 2008, 3:47 PM 

I see NOTHING WRONG! It is BEAUTIFUL! I am in awe, and you can tell you DH, I really mean it, LOL!

[linked image]



1BFii
Hair: All natural dark brown and silver.
Washing: Twice a week, scalp wash, with letting shampoo run through length. Condition from ears on down. Cold as I can stand it final rinse.
Shampoo/Conditioner: I have switched to organic. Aubrey's Honeysuckle Rose Shampoo and Conditioner. Nature's Gate Organics Biotin Shampoo and Conditioner.
Comb, never brush.
Kind Regards,
lacemitts

 
 Respond to this message   


(Premier Login DaisyLove)
Forum Owner

LOL! ...

November 19 2008, 10:14 PM 

That's Lace ... youn really know how to keep a gal on the quilting journey...heehe!

Daisy 2bnii
~Hear O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might~
[linked image] [linked image]
Daisy and Friends Craft/Recipe/Fellowship forum
http://www.network54.com/Index/72531
You are welcome to come and join us

My Blog http://sewingquiltscookingandotherfunstuff.blogspot.com/


 
 Respond to this message   
teacup01
(no login)

A note to DH

November 20 2008, 10:05 AM 

Dear Husband,

Of course we are nice, we are like that all the time [linked image], here is the truth, we would never lie to our dear friend, we would pinpoint the areas that Daisy has gone wrong in, its being honest so that she can correct the mistake. Now we can see nothing bad about the things she makes, so dear husband we ARE NICE all the time and we are HONEST all the time.

Daisy I invision myself to look 30 but well I look in the mirror and am really disappointed [linked image].

The more you do the better you get, never be disappointed, you are continuing to grow.


tea

P.S. to dear husband.....We think you are a wonderful husband for Daisy!!! [linked image]

 
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(Login SchnauzerMom)

Nothing

November 17 2008, 6:41 PM 

that I make turns out perfect, I can always find things wrong.  So I have given up on perfection and try to just enjoy the process of making something.  I have pretty much given up on sewing clothes because I always have trouble. 

Photobucket
SchnauzerMom
[linked image]
http://shaggydogjournal.blogspot.com/

 
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(Premier Login DaisyLove)
Forum Owner

I've always thought ...

November 19 2008, 10:15 PM 

your quilts were perfect too SM! You definately have talent in more ways then one, that I do know!

Daisy 2bnii
~Hear O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might~
[linked image] [linked image]
Daisy and Friends Craft/Recipe/Fellowship forum
http://www.network54.com/Index/72531
You are welcome to come and join us

My Blog http://sewingquiltscookingandotherfunstuff.blogspot.com/


 
 Respond to this message   
mermayd
(no login)

My mom

November 19 2008, 12:11 AM 

used to do a lot of crocheting of afghans. She would fret over her mistakes! I would look at it and look at it and I could not find the mistake! Yet when she saw the afghan, she'd immediately point out the mistakes! Even sometimes after she pointed them out I could not tell what she was talking about!

mermayd

 
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(Premier Login DaisyLove)
Forum Owner

I'm so like that! ...

November 19 2008, 10:17 PM 

I see the faults all the time and it bugs me to no end!

Daisy 2bnii
~Hear O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might~
[linked image] [linked image]
Daisy and Friends Craft/Recipe/Fellowship forum
http://www.network54.com/Index/72531>
You are welcome to come and join us

My Blog http://sewingquiltscookingandotherfunstuff.blogspot.com/

>


    
This message has been edited by DaisyLove on Nov 19, 2008 10:17 PM


 
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