Easy There...

I'm sorry about the 'No ST Plot' crack. You're doing a great job. I meant it to be sarcastic. Sorry.

The rest of the post wasn't trying to attack you or your ideas, just discuss them. I would definatley be interested in playing a game like what you proposed. I thought you posted here so you could get our input and start a discussion on game mechanics.

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*1. The randomness factor.*

*-You're comment of being in the wrong place in the wrong time to become a vampire - mostly false. While yes, as described by White Wolf, random Embraces can and do occur, the vast majority of Embraces are carefully thought out affairs. Consider the fact that, if you're Cam, you have to ask the Prince for permission to Embrace a Childe. In the Sabbat, you ask your Bishop or Archbishop. In the Independent Clans, you either play it very cool, or you ask your Sire. Remember, each new vampire is not only competition for food, but a potential risk to the Masquerade. Randomness rarely falls into the equation.*
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First of all, I think our fundamental disagreement is that I probably think dumb luck has more to do with life than you do.

Vampires choose people who act a certain way, right? In real life I'm not exactly a rough and tumble violent person (regardless of what the dante test says). That means that a Brujah probably wouldn't consider embracing me under normal circumstances. What if a Brujah saw me at the bar on a very bad night where some dude starts a fight with me for hitting on his girl? What if by dumb luck I won? What if afterwards I was drunk and gave off the wrong impression to this Brujah that I'm a badass? Maybe this Brujah happens to be the prince or have enough sway to get permission to embrace me? Wrong place at the wrong time.

Also, there are certain places where people act differently. I act much differently at Pennsic than I do when I'm working. I could be embraced for who I am at Pennsic by somebody who doesn't know what I'm like outside of Pennsic.

Too esoteric? Okay, what if I was an archaeologist whose field of study concentrated on aincient methods of burial and death mythology. If I never ran across a Giovanni for my entire career I would be mortal. If by chance one Giovanni showed up to one of my lectures and decided that he really really likes me then there is a halfway decent chance that I could become a vampire. Wrong place at the wrong time.

On top of that it's a 1:3 chance of surviving the embrace... depending on how you decide to calculate it (I could be wrong)

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*As for the other supernatural denizens of the WoD - the randomness is even less of a factor. Werewolves (regardless of Breed) are born that way. The fact that the Change doesn't "take" until puberty is inconsequential.*
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I think how you're born is very pseudorandom (it can be predicted but not calculated). What are the chances that you were born the way you were? The chances of you bing either male or female is a coin toss, as is eye color, hair color, height, metabloism (to a certain extent), etc. Hundreds of thousands of people are born evrey day, maybe more (I'm pulling that number out of thin air... anyway, it's a lot of people). If you believe your coinsciousness existed before your birth, what are the chances that it was born when and where you were?

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*As for: "Things like mages, changelings, wraiths, and many ghouls are chosen at random. There is absolutley no reason to follow streotypes for these creatures." - no, there isn't. But there isn't any reason not to, either. Playing against the stereotype can get just as boring and old as playing the stereotype.*
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If playing a stereotype is boring and playing against stereotype is boring then what's the point? Why play?

Most people do play their stereotype without thinking there is another way. Playing outside stereotype can be fun if you aren't bothered by people constantly criticising you for playing your character 'wrong'.

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*And, again, randomness doesn't really come into the factoring, either - or, if it does, it's in an insignificant amount. Mages Awaken due to special events that take place around them - many of them are destined for it. Changelings are reborn into mortal hosts - similar to Garou. Almost all wraiths are wraiths because of some sort of driving need, not due to randomness. And ghouls are most certainly never chosen at random. No sane vampire would just pick some guy off the street at random to act as his gofer, lackey, and PROTECTION DURING THE DAY (in some cases). Hardly random at all.*
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From what I understand mages awaken because of events that nobody controls. Destiny? Maybe I'm jaded but I believe destiny is luck. Wraiths have driving needs because they were unsatisfied with their life or death, probably because of more events that are usually not controlled by anybody (unless they were POWs or tortured to death or something... I'm not up on wraith stuff). You're right, vampires don't usually choose ghouls at random, but it is done. Also, ghouls are chosen for reasons similar to why vamps choose to embrace an individual.

As for Changelings and Garou... see above for how random birth traits are.

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*"To extrapolate: Skew the numbers so you have a 1% chance of being human (because humans suck)."*

*-Funny thing - if humans suck so much, why are there things like the Masquerade, the Veil, the Mists, the Fog, and the Right to Innocence? I'm sorry, but that opinion is hardly shared by White Wolf.*
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To put it another way: I don't want to play a human because I played house when I was little and I didn't like it then and I won't like it now.

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*"But seriously, I don't think your reasoning holds up for eliminating clans other than, 'I don't like them':"*

*Not so. Every Clan I mentioned falls into one of several categories (if not all): *

*A. Adds nothing to the game except an annoying, clunky, poor Discipline. The Setites fall squarely into this category. Serpentis is retarded, and follows no logical progression. So do the Malkavians. They're just silly, and so is their Discipline.*
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If it's not personal taste then what makes a discipline clunky, poor and silly?

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*B. Does not follow common vampire mythos. The Ravnos. 'Nuff said.*
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Ravnos was a part of the vampire mythos. I seem to remember Ravnos killing Malkav... or was it somebody else? Sorry, I can't quote things like I know you can (nobody expects the inquisiton). On top of that the death of Ravnos is a major part of vampire mythology. Evrey clan has an antedeluvian so how can they not be part of the vampire mythology?

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*C. Would likely soon be destroyed by logically following White Wolf metaplot. This would be Clans like the Giovanni, and the Tremere. From what I know of WW metaplot, these strike me as the next to go. Add to the fact that they are both often poorly played, and the reasons for eliminating them mount.*
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I don't follow the white wolf metaplot. I don't really care about it either. It's rare that things happening in the White Wolf universe have a direct impact on our game. I can think of two times: Star Gazers and Ravnos.

I'd love to follow it for entertainment purposes, if I could just borrow somebody's books.

DISCLAIMER: Your book may be tied to a stake and burned at midnight in my backyard. I don't have a job so I can't replace any books destroyed.

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*Besides, taking out a Clan like the Ventrue (which, btw, I find horribly boring to play, usually) would seriously disrupt the game. Justin Achilli has said that himself, when people bitch about why he killed Ravnos. Quite frankly, I want to eliminate the Clans that cause less headaches to remove. The Ventrue are not one of them, I don't feel like re-writing Vampire society.*
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Why bother rewriting vampire society? Just say that some antedeluvian died last week and his spell over the vampires was broken so it became evident that the 14th and 15th gen vamps were right: Clans were created as an aparatus for antedeluvian power. Give evreybody access to all disciplines like the higher gen vamps have.

To make it easier you could get rid of clans by running a highest-gen vampire game.

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*"Idea #3: No ST plot.

You left yourself wide open on that one. I'm sorry, I can't say it. It's just too easy."

Actually, I'd love to hear what you mean on this one. Really. Elaborate on this one. I certainly hope you don't mean that I don't have plot, or don't know what I'm doing. If that's what you think, don't bother showing up to game anymore. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but I'm not wasting my time and energy on someone that thinks I'm doing a bad job when I have several players that think I'm doing a fine job. I will not deny them a good experience.*
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I'll explain it this way: Remember in the last episode of Buffy when Xander was complaining to Buffy's sister about the 'all fun and games untill somebody looses an eye' cracks? I was trying to make a joke like that. Obviously, you don't think it's funny. I'm sorry.

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*Now, your Imbued comments. My "arbitrary" arrangement serves two purposes. One, there is the distinct possibility that players can end up in a group with people they ordinarily do not play with. This is a good thing, in my book - it's nice to be able to play with people with different styles, kind of like in fencing. Two, the Imbued tend to group together (adds to survival), but not in large numbers (they can be tracked by the monsters more easily). The drawing from a hat thing only serves to facilitate the randomness that can occur from an Imbuing. The groups may eventually meet in person, but could interact with each other via Hunter-Net or through Influences (which could be really cool - they wouldn't necessarily know who was on the other end of the Influence, y'know?)*

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*Now, onto a comment that simultaneously annoyed me and filled me with disappointment.*

*"That brings me to another point: Our characters are interacting once a week on Sunday night from 7:00 -- 11:00 PM for absolutley no reason".*

*Okay, this may very well be my fault for not adequately describing Garou life to you. Sadly, I didn't have the opportunity to hold "class" with you like Steve and I did with some others. The characters are at the Caern most of the time. There are several that cannot leave the Caern. It must be defended. The fact that we play on Sunday does not mean that the characters are only meeting on that day. Besides, once a month, there is a Moot, so that is a meeting - very important, no sane Garou misses one, if they can help it. The problem you describe is more inherent to a Vampire LARP - the characters are often against each other, and certainly do not hang out at Elysium all the time - so why do they do it once a week, or whatever the game's timeframe is? It's simply a suspension of disbelief that you are going to have to deal with as a player - and if you can't, then I suggest that LARP may not be your cup of tea, if that weekly thing irks you so much.*
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I never said it bothers me that much. It's not something that occurred to me untill moments before I typed it here. I know the solutions I proposed were extreeme, but that's the only way I can come up with to fix it.

I think you're over reacting here. It makes sense for you to invite me to leave because I insulted your plot but not because I brought up a problem that there is no practical solution for. It seems like you're looking for excuses to invite me to leave. I know I'm not the best player in the world so if you don't like how I play just email me privatley.

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*""-Jim "I got a million of 'em" Fisher"*

*Then how come 'No ST Plot'? "*

*Dude, what's with this? Seriously, I want to know. As for that suggesting I made - when a LARP has players that put time into their characters, time learning the rules and setting, and they come up with richly detailed characters that do more that say "hey, that guy fucked with me - let's get a beat squad and kill him!", then the ST shouldn't have to come up with plot. The players will do that on their own. Not that I don't have plot, or that I can't come up with some, but that, I shouldn't have to. It's when players don't have a grasp of the rules, setting, or (most importantly) their character that the ST has to work triple or quadruple time to get them into the game in some fashion. And that work doesn't always pay off. ST's have a lot of things to worry about - the character should be the player's responsiblity to create and flesh out - not the ST's. If you think I'm joking, run a game sometime. You can see firsthand.*
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I know. No ST plot could be a good idea with the right players.

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*-Jim "Dude, I hope you were joking with most of this" Fisher*
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I was joking about you not having any plot. I wasn't joking about the rest of it... but I wasn't trying to start a huge fight either.