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The Roses made their choice

August 6 2017 at 4:17 PM
Jim  (no login)

 
The Roses could be huge again if they really wanted it. But they don't. They could be friends/allies again if they wanted. But they don't. They could be great but they choose to be mediocre.

 
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stiv
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Re: The Roses made their choice

August 6 2017, 6:35 PM 

true facts.

 
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pumpo
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IAWS2

Re: The Roses made their choice

August 7 2017, 5:53 PM 

I don't think this is what they'd have chosen for themselves.

They did what they could and, yet again, it didn't really work out creatively. Again.

They had a great year - eighteen months, maybe, from mid 88 - late 90-ish. Maybe less than that. They don't know what happened then, or they'd have done it again.

Their time has passed, and had quite a long time ago. Didn't have it, had it, lost it. Perhaps we should have listened to Sick Boy in the 90s.

 
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Jim
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Re: The Roses made their choice

August 8 2017, 6:35 PM 

No, they just don't want to work hard. They used to work hard in the beginning but now they can't be bothered.

 
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pumpo
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Re: The Roses made their choice

August 8 2017, 6:43 PM 

I don't think they've been that bothered since about 1989, personally.

On the other hand, I don't think someone cracking the whip would make any difference. They grafted because they wanted to way back when.

I don't think hard work is any replacement for inspiration, which is what they lack.

Same as most artists, isn't it? Except most never have an imperial phase.

What bands or singers have consistently been great throughout a long ish career? Particularly coming back with something as good as, or better, than the best of their classic material?

Maybe someone has, but I can't think of any. They've done their best and - to an extent - realised they don't have it anymore. Not creatively as a unit, anyway.

I've not been to any reunion gigs, but what I've heard hasn't made me regret it.

Diminishing returns since Fools Gold, if you ask me.

Joseph Heller, when asked why he'd not reached the heights of Catch-22 in his following books used to reply, 'No, I haven't written anything as good as that, and neither has anyone else.'

Which is how I feel about The Roses, currently.

It's not for lack of trying.


    
This message has been edited by pumpo on Aug 8, 2017 6:49 PM


 
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stiv
(no login)

Re: The Roses made their choice

August 8 2017, 6:53 PM 

is that right though? it seems ian was very very keen to work under the roses name and was then very angry that reni had put the kibosh on it. can't blame him - he might now get one short uk arena tour that doesn't sell that well off the back of the reunion, but it'll soon be back down to o2 academy venues and poor album sales.

what i think is interesting is that leading up to the etihad gigs, rumour was spread that ian was going solo because both reni and squire were dragging their heels and weren't keen. then a year later, apparently it's just reni. seems like everyone but ian knew the songs were shit, and john left reni to take the blame - what a twat happy.gif it's at least 15 years since either ian or john released anything worth hearing, so it's not surprising they struggled to cobble anything together.

 
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pumpo
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Re: The Roses made their choice

August 8 2017, 10:35 PM 

Individual work ethics aren't the same thing as a collective work ethic though.

It's hard to know: what we've heard haven't set the world on fire and apparently Reni wasn't into them.

Perhaps Reni viewed AFO and BT as being turds that wouldn't benefit from polishing. He's not a songwriter, but he knows what he likes, maybe?

Mani, I think, would go along with more or less anything they did. I suspect Brown would too. Squire? Who knows?

They don't agree on much, musically, or so it appears.

Maybe it's a shame, maybe it's for the best. Either way, this is what we're getting.

In terms of 'work', isn't it often the case that the things that people pore over tends to not be as good as that which suddenly appears fully formed from nowhere.

'Not Guilty', the George Harrison song (not) on the White Album had More work than anything, except possibly Ob-La-Di ( yeah, again...). Nowhere Man just came to Lennon, more or less fully formed. I'm. It saying Nowhere Man is the best thing in the world - although I do like it a lot - but it's better than Not Guilty or Ob-La-bastard-Di.

On the other hand, Strawberry Fields Forever is better than all of those three songs put together, and that was a right pain in the arse to get right. Even then Lennon didn't like it.

Work? Maybe not the answer. Not always, anyway.

 
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G
(no login)

Re: The Roses made their choice

August 9 2017, 2:05 AM 

John Leckie.

I think that his musical vision for,& marshalling of, the group in '88/'89 was absolutely crucial to their subsequent success & to a point that many Roses' fans are possibly unwilling to accept. Yes, there were the demos but they were rough diamonds. Yes, there was the will & ambition & neither of those qualities or the songs appear to be present now, but I think Leckie was the factor that tipped all that over into greatness. Albeit for a brief moment.
By the time of Second Coming he'd lost his authority with the group. He could no longer channel them & that was it. TSR was a result of a combination of elements coming together. This was less about the Roses as a band in the conventional sense & more about a moment built on personalities & creative visions temporarily gelling. And not just between the band themselves & Leckie but the dovetailing with a generation of fans in terms of cultural reference points, drugs & attitudes. Needless to say, this was never going to repeat itself a quarter of a century later. Even on a minor level. It's amazing it happened once.

As far as the reunion goes. It was fun. I don't regret them doing it. I'd go & see them play the same set again if they choose to.
Whatever they had back then, there was still a piece of that this time around, but another great album or, indeed, any kind of album was never going to happen.

 
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Johnny Bravo
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Re: The Roses made their choice

August 8 2017, 10:49 PM 

Suede's "Night Thoughts" was as good as their early work, and that was without Bernard Butler - the Reni of the group

 
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pumpo
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Re: The Roses made their choice

August 9 2017, 2:21 AM 

I like Bernard Butler era Suede - to an extent.

I wouldn't say that Night Thoughts was in any way as good as the Butler era.

The My Bloody Valentine comeback was pretty good, although I've not been bothered enough to listen to it very much.

I liked the David Axelrod record from about 2000 more than some of his earlier stuff, but it was earlier stuff, just faffed with.

 
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Fran
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Re: The Roses made their choice

August 8 2017, 7:18 PM 

John worked hard to produce most of the second coming, on his own.

Ian worked hard when he was a solo artist

If those two could come together again, things could work.

Mani is a consistently awesome bass guru, Reni can bang the drums. Give him some tracks he lies and it could work.

 
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pumpo
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IAWS2

Re: The Roses made their choice

August 8 2017, 10:45 PM 

*Give him some tracks he lies and it could work.*

Therein lies the rub, doesn't it! Ironically.

Easier said than done, apparently.

 
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fabio
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Re: The Roses made their choice

August 10 2017, 2:46 PM 

bring back Gareth Evans. he might have been a total dipstick but he was the only one who has ever got the best out of the boys.

 
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Hebongsthezylophone
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Snail pace

August 8 2017, 8:47 PM 

As a group even given the perfect conditions great producer, songs I guess they'd fuck up again they work too slow as a unit. The court case 90-92 made no difference at all in delaying 2nd coming. They should ve just knocked an album out in 2013 something spontaneous and catchy to represent their current sound remember "time is now do it now" instead of coming back with 2 good songs in 2016 but by their standards average songs

 
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pumpo
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IAWS2

Re: Snail pace

August 8 2017, 10:55 PM 

I think the court case did set them back, but probably more than it should have.

They couldn't have recorded anything professionally - officially - but they could have written songs and probably recorded at least demos on the quiet. Instead, they buggered about. I've said before, probably because they were too old when at that point. Families, kids, moving apart mentally and physically. And musically.

Given that Reni isn't really part of the newer recordings, they must either be all they have, or the best of what they have.

They can't do any better than those at the moment, or they would have. Whether they could have tried harder - I don't know, but I think they've said everything they have to say and played what they have to play.

I expect something further will happen, if the rumours are true, without Reni. I'm not holding my breath and I'm not expecting any hot shit.

Fair dos, The Stone Roses lp and the records around 88-89 are astonishing. They lost something after that - integrity, to some extent, in my opinion - and it tends not to come back.

They didn't have the songs in 2013 either.

 
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Stella
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Re: Snail pace

August 8 2017, 11:28 PM 

And yet those Squire solo demos were perfect for the band and Brown

 
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pumpo
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IAWS2

Re: Snail pace

August 9 2017, 2:22 AM 

Depends which ones, I suppose.

Waterfall and all those? Yes, they were. More recent ones haven't been, evidently.

 
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Resident half wit
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Re: Snail pace

August 9 2017, 5:45 AM 

I'm not a fast learner.


    
This message has been edited by pumpo on Aug 9, 2017 11:12 AM


 
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Stella
(no login)

Re: Snail pace

August 9 2017, 8:13 AM 

No mate, the demos Squire put on his own website in 2009, especially the forth one.

https://youtu.be/b7rcgph0pxk

My theory on the lack of tunes, fall outs etc isnt anything to do with lack of creativity it's down to money and royalties, that'll be the same as the SC and the 1996 split too.


 
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pumpo
(Login pumpo)
IAWS2

Re: Snail pace

August 9 2017, 11:13 AM 

Could be, but even AFO and BT were credited four ways.


    
This message has been edited by pumpo on Aug 9, 2017 11:13 AM


 
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