<< Previous Topic | Next Topic >>Return to Index  

s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt 559 Jagdpanther insignia (& JP/Panther primer colours)

October 6 2008 at 8:41 PM
  (Premier Login Archive1944-45)
Forum Owner

Anyone with a reasonable idea of what makes a truly accurate scale model or restoration will appreciate, above all else, the value of a good period photograph. So too aficionados will recognise the tremendous value of publications like Ampersand's Allied & Axis, AFV Modeller's Duel In The Mist and the Panzerwrecks series above all others, in bringing to light not only interesting photos, but thoughtfully formatted nice and large in landscape format, so the details are far more discernable. Publishers like Concord and Osprey perhaps ought to take note!

At the beginning of Panzerwrecks 4, for example, is an excellent array of beautifully clear photos of a Jagdpanther belonging to s.Pz.Jag.Abt 559, KO'ed not far from Raamsdonk, in the Netherlands on the 1st of November 44. One of the photos is the clearest yet published showing the well known, but thus far unidentified marking on its LH front fender:



Close examination of the photo suggests it is in all probability a stylised frontal view of a Jagdpanther, just somewhat disguised by damage to the paint surface and the angle of the fender to the camera. What colours it was originally painted in are naturally open to speculation:



This marking may have also been applied to the rear left or right stowage bin, however no photos have thus far surfaced that we are aware of showing the vehicle’s rear to confirm this. Nor to the writer’s knowledge have any other vehicles been identified with this marking, but it is unlikely to have been unique to this vehicle. Given the makeup of s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt 559, with only its Stab and 1. Kompanie equipped with Jagdpanther, while its 2. and 3. Kompanien were equipped with Stug III, it is possible the insignia may have been a 1. Kompanie marking rather than divisional sign.

This further shot shows the same vehicle (tactical number unknown), post war, after it had been bulldozed into a ditch:



For the record here is a selection of other s.Pz.Jag.Abt 559 Jagdpanthers, which go to show the lack of further evidence on this insignia. This first set of shots show the well known Befehls Jagdpanther “01”, KO’ed in early September in Belgium near Joe’s Bridge, on the frontier with Holland. This JP now resides in the Imperial War Museum. No stylised JP insignia is evident on either front or rear, however this may be on account of damage to the Zimmerit/rear stowage bin:

"

Dutch researcher Marcel Zwarts’ managed to interview the former commander of s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt 559, who told him the commander of this JP, a Major Sattler, was apparently injured not by enemy fire, but from a fall as he exited this vehicle.





This next eg is also a Jagdpanther Befehlswagen KO’ed in Belgium, this time in the town of Geel and photographed on the 13th of September 1944, just prior to Operation Market-Garden. The vehicle was destroyed during a battle with the British 50th infantry Division which took place over the preceeding three days:



The dented and scorched nature makes it difficult to determine what markings it may have carried. Modellers however may care to note, apart from the charactoristic Befhels Sternantenne Fuss to the left of the rear crew hatch, visible on its deck lay two signal wire spools and at least one jerrycan.

This next example was also KO’ed in Geel and may have been a victim of Shermans belonging to the Nottinghamshire Yeomanry, which supported the 50th Infantry Divisions attack:



Again, the damage to the Zimmerit and overall quality of the side shot is not sufficient to ascertain if there were any tac numbers or Balkenkreuz applied to this eg:



This final example below was photographed just NE of Geel, on the 17th of September 1944, at the beginning of Operation Market-Garden. After The Battle's Operation Market-Garden Then & Now explains the burning DC-3 Skytrain beside it had been shot down by Flak after dropping paratroopers of the US 101st Airborne Division in the Son area of Holland. All of the crew apparently survived. This JP was actually KO’ed a week earlier in the same battle as the previous two egs. Unfortunately once again no markings are visible:





Baz


Related reading:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/thread/1220014145/Details+for+Jagdpanther+sHPzJagAbt+559+in+Holland

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/thread/1064072378/jagdpanther+and+dakota+in+Dutch+or+Belgian+field
(includes Pathé film link from Niels Henkemanns)

Panzerwrecks 4, Lee Archer and William Auerbach, 2007

Operation Market-Garden Then and Now Volume 1, 2002, After the Battle Publications, ISBN 1 870067 39 8

Belgie 1944, Peter Taghon, 1993, ISBN 90 209 2287 4


    
This message has been edited by Archive1944-45 on Oct 11, 2008 3:46 PM
This message has been edited by Archive1944-45 on Oct 7, 2008 3:58 AM


 
 Respond to this message   
AuthorReply

(Premier Login Archive1944-45)
Forum Owner

Re: s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt 559 Jagdpanther insignia

October 8 2008, 7:03 PM 

Further to the 559 insignia, Manus Gallagher has recalled this old thread below and reiterated an early proposition that in some instances sheet metal work on Jagdpanthers (etc) was finished in a black primer coat (black finishes were used as base coats on baked enamelled products, like mugs etc. and are also found inside gasmask cannisters and so forth dating back to WWI):

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/thread/1024409692/Colour+pic+of+primer+colours+in+Panzer+factory%2C+Ruhr+1945

Don Campbell has since clarified on the above forum that Zinc phosphate was the main constituent of the steel primer coats used then, just as it is now. It is worth mentioning here also that Zinc chromate on the other hand was used on aluminium, most typically as an 02 RLM Grau shade on aircraft components. Steel aircraft components, such as Me 262 nose sections would have been best finshed in 02 RLM Grau colour matched Zinc phosphate primer as it was designed for such ferrous surfaces (so too like armour plate, etc). It is that type of primer that is therefore likely seen on the Jagdpanther, etc, in the colour photo below.

It should be noted Zinc phosphate primers were and still are pigmented in various shades, such as grey, red oxide/red lead, blue and black to suit a variety of largely civilian-developed applications. The increasing decentralisation that ocurred through the subcontracting of the German manufacturing industry during the war would explain why such variations in primer coating colours are evident below.



This apparent black primer fender evidence seen above could explain why the chip in the s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt 559 insignia is so dark (and why chips looks so dark on some damaged rear stowage bins). This in turn may be an added indication the stylized JP was indeed black as initially speculated:



It should be noted there are plenty of wartime photos and surviving relic evidence of red oxide/red lead tinted primer coatings which clearly establish it as the most commonly used primer coating colour on Panzer componentry. Modellers in particular should note, however, there is arguably room for some variation in primer colours on their builds of late war vehicles.

Baz


    
This message has been edited by Archive1944-45 on Oct 12, 2008 11:09 AM
This message has been edited by Archive1944-45 on Oct 9, 2008 10:50 AM


 
 Respond to this message   
Anonymous
(Premier Login Archive1944-45)
Forum Owner

Re: s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt 559 Jagdpanther insignia

October 11 2008, 3:14 PM 

Just to put to rest the theory that the grey primer described in the photo above may be in fact discoloured Dunkelgelb, due to aged colour film, below right is another scene in the same factory, which is actually taken in the background of the LH photo. In the LH shot Dunkelgelb can be seen as a distinct sandy hue in the background, while the RH close up shot reveals that they are indeed DG painted components:



Also note there is a distinct tonal difference evident between the semi completed Jagdpanther and the other grey primed components in the photo at left, which is exaggerated by the light reflecting off the JPs front plate. The tonal variation can be put down to different batches of the Zinc phosphate primer. Such tonal variation was also the case with Zinc chromate RLM 02 primer on aircraft parts (as it was with top coats, like Dunkelgelb).

For the record, this photo below was taken within the same factory complex at MNH, Hannover, as the colour photos above. The early state of assembly of these Jagdpanthers, combined with the evidence apparent in the colour JP above suggests they are all also finished in grey Zinc phosphate primer, rather than Dunkelgelb:



Baz


    
This message has been edited by Archive1944-45 on Oct 14, 2008 9:44 PM
This message has been edited by Archive1944-45 on Oct 12, 2008 12:27 PM
This message has been edited by Archive1944-45 on Oct 12, 2008 11:19 AM


 
 Respond to this message   

(Premier Login Archive1944-45)
Forum Owner

Re: s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt 559 Jagdpanther insignia

January 15 2009, 11:26 AM 

A short while ago Steven Zaloga kindly shared a better scan of the MNH factory colour photo on www.missing-lynx.com:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/thread/1231004860/End+of+War+Panther+colors

[linked image]

The original theory of the turret shells in the foreground being finished in Dunkelgelb and not grey primer has certainly not been put to rest!

Based on this clearly better scan of Steves, it certainly can be argued the turret shells look closer to Dunkelgelb, than the original scan I posted earlier. However, close examination of the colour compared to the completed turrets in the background would suggest that they are perhaps finished in two different coatings.

This discrepancy could be put down to the foreground turret shells being at a different angle to the sunlight than the turrets in the backgound. On the other hand, in comparing this colour photo to another B&W image, I believe there is still a case to argue the turret shells are finished in a form of grey primer, probably not dissimilar in tone to RLM 02 used on aircraft componentry, as theorised originally note in particular the two tones on the turret shell (Turret B), compared to the Dunkelgelb finished turrets in the background:

[linked image]

NB It should be pointed out also, another perhaps more plausible way of looking at this evidence is the match in tone of the Cheek of Turret A with Turret C is due to Turret C being in full sunlight and therefore lighter looking, while the cheek of Turret A is lighter simply because it is instead in a grey primer (thus the rest of the turret is Dunkelgelb as Steve suggests). This primer cheek is much paler than RLM 02 and indeed matches with the coating seen on the Jagdpanther:

[linked image]

As for that semi-completed Jagdpanther seen in Steve's scan of the photo, clearly it appears to be coated in a pale grey finish (albeit scorched in places), which would indicate a Zinc-phosphate primer. One thing about the pattern of the scorching suggests it is plausible the fenders and side rail had caught fire and therefore blackened, perhaps due to the paint being in a semi-cured state and therefore particularly flammable:

[linked image]

Baz


    
This message has been edited by Archive1944-45 on Jan 15, 2009 12:20 PM


 
 Respond to this message   
Current Topic - s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt 559 Jagdpanther insignia (& JP/Panther primer colours)
  << Previous Topic | Next Topic >>Return to Index  

Recommended reading

Copyright Archive1944-45, 2009