Lauren - a question for you on the IVF w/ own eggs post (m/c ment)February 23 2011 at 11:42 AM
|Andi (not Lauren - oops below) (Login Andi777)|
I was reading your post about going straight to DE and I'm wondering if your doctors have done anything to look into your early losses (sorry if you've posted this and I've missed it). I ask because, like you, I had many losses and my RE didn't think it made sense to do IVF with my own eggs as I could get pregnant without it. However, I was much older than you, and one of my losses was late term and due to a chromosomal problem so we knew it was an egg issue. Have any tests been done on you to look for reasons for your miscarriages? Just wondering as you say you are very young. I'm sorry you are going through this, no one should have to. By the way, I went straight to DE with my own eggs.
|This message has been edited by Andi777 on Feb 23, 2011 11:43 AM|
Re: Lauren - a question for you on the IVF w/ own eggs post (m/c ment)
|February 23 2011, 12:10 PM |
At this point nothing.The first few were before we ever even saw an RE, and this was before I knew about getting betas. I just knew you tested at home. I made it only 5-6 weeks with each
The fourth we were on a break from TTC with Med Assistance and I could have asked for a beta but I knew I was pregnant, I had a progesterone script and figured a beta could tell me nothing new.
It never entered into my head until this year to think that there could be testing. Three RE's all said "there is nothing you can do if yo do miscarry" so I assumed there were never answers for WHY people miscarry. It was always explained as "just bad luck"
This current RE is very dismissive. They dont count, not "real pregnancy" just "chemicals, no heartbeat so its not the same kind of loss". No attempt to test and refuses immune testing
Fragile X came back normal this week. Research is telling me to obviously leave this RE but all the RE's I've seen in Dallas had very similar statements and and views on "my chemicals"
one more thing...
|February 23 2011, 12:56 PM |
They can't test with the early m/c...so he's right on that. But they could look for other reasons why the egg would fertilize and not take. Maybe others have recommendations.
I agree testing!
|February 23 2011, 5:12 PM |
there are lots of reason that something could not be happening: immune issues and so forth. There are RE's who specialize in women who miscarry. I would try for this. I don't know for sure but isn't Cornell in NYC like, one of the best in finding out situations like this?
I would think immune testing would be a good idea, too.
|February 23 2011, 12:29 PM |
Is it possible for you to find a reproductive immunologist near you who would test you independently of your RE? I know a lot of REs seem to feel threatened by immune treatments but maybe it would be possible to do it on your own. Reading your post seems like something straight out of a chapter of 'Is your body baby friendly?' (a good book for laypeople to get info. about immune testing and treatments --- I cried when I read it, as it seemed to be about all of my family's medical history)
I know. I know! HE'S the doctor, but I still don't understand why they seem to automatically jump at the idea that it's the egg that's faulty.
Best wishes. I hope you find success soon.
I'd look for some more answers...
|February 23 2011, 12:54 PM |
DE is wonderful, but if there's something else going on it could be a problem with DE as well (like a progesterone issue - or blood clotting, or immune, etc. I had a friend who had 4 m/c, all told it was normal, before they realized she needed progesterone support. Next month it was a success).
How old are you?
Start by reading the book recommended by the sameboat, also:
the fertility cure by randine lewis is a good book.
I'd do a little research with an RE who is supportive. Egg quality is only one reason you could m/c.
Also that RE sounds a little insensitive.
Good Luck to you.
Lauren, I was thinking the same thing after posting to you below...
|February 23 2011, 1:03 PM |
about moving right to DE. Nothing wrong with doing so - but as some of us have learned the hard (and expensive) way, DE is not always the magic bullet if there are other things going on
. In my case we found one thing at a time and it turned out to be a "little bit of this and a little bit of that" that kept me mc'ing - even with donor eggs. Definitely get a recurrent mc panel at a minimum, that tests for basic blood clotting issues and basic immune stuff, even if you don't do the full immune workup (which I'd still recommend - immune stuff DOES seem tied into high FSH at a young age/ POF just from my years on the high FSH board and here). The fact you're getting pg easily makes my alarm bells go off that it MAY not be solely an egg quality issue (though with your high FSH that's certainly part of it). I'd investigate further before dropping a ton of cash on DE IVF, then if you find nothing else to treat, go for it when you are ready
Good luck to you! Best,
It is my understanding
|February 23 2011, 2:07 PM |
that after two or three consecutive m/c (whether chemical pregnancies or not), RPL (repeat loss testing) is recommended. I don't think you would be at all out of line to insist that your RE run the tests.
Good luck to you!
THIS POST IF FOR LAUREN
|February 23 2011, 2:56 PM |
I am a "veteran" of the regular high FSH board and even responded to you several times over there. I come to this board from time to time because DE has been an option I have considered heavily for myself. I have to say that I am so disappointed (not sure that is the right word??) to see you here.
I think DE is an AMAZING, sanity-saving, hope-restoring option. I've been through the initial work-ups for DE and have consulted with several clinics. But, as an OE IVF veteran, I think you're jumping the gun here. You are so young still. And you have proven you can get pregnant. I know that on the other board you posted averaging a pregnancy per year and you were down about that. But that is actually VERY GOOD! I know it doesn't feel good in any way because of the losses that have come with those pregnancies. But YOU CAN GET PREGNANT!
The issue to be solved here is how to KEEP you pregnant.
You need to get yourself more consultation(s) with specialists. I actually think it's ridiculous for anyone to suggest IVF given that you can get pregnant on your own. These REs mainly make money by doing IVF so it's no wonder that it's their go-to answer.
You may want to post on the pregnancy boardhttp://www.network54.com/Forum/264844/
There are women on there who have suffered pregnancy losses only to go on to successful pregnancies.
One young lady has not yet found succcess but has made her way from South Dakota to a specialist in Chicago to try and solve her miscarriage mystery. http://www.network54.com/Forum/264844/message/1298065809/update+for+those+that+may+remember+me...%28m-c+ment...%29
If DE is absolutely what you want to do that is perfectly fine and you certainly don't need anyone's reassurance/approval from a board to proceed. But just trying to bring to light for you that you haven't solved your mystery yet and so jumping to DE may end up being "foolish" for reasons that have nothing to do with figuring out if DE is right or not. Like Kenny posted, you may be having issues that DE can't and will never overcome.
As a first step you should be asking your OB - forget the RE - to do a thrombophilia panel. This will look at antiphospholipid antibodies, lupus anticoagulant, and anticardiolipin antibodies, Antiphosphotidylserine, PAI-1 levels and activity, Antithrombin III, Prothrombin II mutation, Protein C activity, Protein S activity, Factor V Leiden, MTHFR/homocysteine level.
You should also ask that karyotyping be run on both you and DH. None of this has to even be run as "infertility" diagnosis code. Given your history, your OB should be ordering this under diagnosis code V629.9 - habitual aborter without a current pregnancy. (Sorry, I know that the term aborter sounds horrible but that is the technical term).
It's what your gut tells you. Don't worry about what other people think
|February 23 2011, 4:28 PM |
It looks like you're trying to rationalize that you'd rather go ahead to DE without messing with OE IVF, because I notice you said in your initial post:
"I have crappy genetics honestly. I got relatively lucky but addiction and cancer and mental illness race through my family on both sides like wildfire. I'd feel at this point that a child from someone else genes would be getting a gift I cant give.
So rambling thoughts that I urge people to pick apart. Why is it so taboo to even think of skipping IVF with my own eggs? I am so sick of hearing "dont you want to try just once, you are so young, wont you always wonder".
What if I really don't care where or who my children come from? Is that possible??"
It sounds like you're leaning to DE, not just because of prior miscarriages and high FSH, but also because you think there are genetic problems you carry that you don't necessarily want to pass on to your child. What a noble statement (thinking of your future child), saying "I'd feel at this point that a child from someone else genes would be getting a gift I cant give," instead of just worry about carrying on your bloodline. Do what you want, if you think you'll get a better result for you and your baby by using donor ovum, go for it. If you're wanting to give it a shot with your own genes, do that too, but don't let anyone convince you that you're weird for not caring about that.
I think what people are trying to communicate ...
|February 23 2011, 8:46 PM |
I'm not sure if you are responding to the earlier thread, or this one where people are encouraging her to look into other options...
I think the point that people are trying to make here is that if it is not her eggs which are causing the problem that she will continue to have the problem when she does DE. So people are recommending that she do some testing to look into causes other than merely assuming it's the eggs - especially since she is young. I also want to say that you can get pregnant with eggs which are chromosomally compromised and m/c. I did that for a bout 2 years (usually the first or 2nd month I tried)and had success with my first DE cycle. I had a hard time believing it was really my eggs when I was getting pregnant so easily...but I was 39-40 at the time - so at an age where the REs could assume it was an egg issue.
|This message has been edited by Andi777 on Feb 23, 2011 9:19 PM|
For sure I see what they are trying to communicate, but...
|February 23 2011, 11:05 PM |
I read her request more as asking if it was okay not to care about the genetic connection than if she should move to DE at her age, when she said:
I am so sick of hearing "dont you want to try just once, you are so young, wont you always wonder". What if I really don't care where or who my children come from? Is that possible??
I was just responding to her thoughts rather than throwing suggestions at her she might not really want to hear anymore, since she said she was sick of hearing people giving her advice on how she should "try just once" with her own eggs. A lot of us (me included) did a million tests and protocols because we thought the genetic connection was essential, and because we weren't ready to give it up. It sounds like she's sort of past all that (mature beyond her years, maybe).
Re: For sure I see what they are trying to communicate, but...
|February 23 2011, 11:27 PM |
Sorry I'm just now able to log in again today after working-- yes there are definitely multiple factors here for sure that I have to investigate before I can try any option, because if clotting disorders or something is amiss, DE will do me little good. I'm thankful for these suggestions so that I can make the most informed decisions possible before I do any procedure.
H40+ is reading me correctly too when I'm discussing and wondering why it's so "odd" to the modern world or culture or environment that I might want to skip IVF OE altogether. I'm unsure I guess why the need for genetic connection is so important for people outside of me who won't even be parenting the child (aka why do they care, and why do I seem to not care.. is there something wrong with ME?!?)
These comments have been coming from people outside of here who have been asking general questions about our POF/POI situation and commenting that "we should try at least once then because you'll just always regret it" and "how can you imagine that option when you haven't tried on your own yet". And I'm not connecting emotionally to their questions and inquiries, thus why I asked here if I was abnormal for not feeling that way. I don't want to leave any stone unturned in this quest, and I want to ensure that I'm pushed on every topic before I bring children into this world. If I truly "should" try with my own eggs, then by all means I'm open to it. I just felt so unemotional when these people were so shocked- Our emotional experiences seemed in congruent and I thought something might be wrong with me and how I see parenting or the relationship.
I am researching reproductive immunologists in Dallas as we speak and also thinking he can run the recurrent panels as well. I'm aware that Dr Saleh at SIRM here in Dallas is very open to Immunology, but I wonder if I should go see a Repro Immune Doc specifically?? They can also run the miscarriage panels, right?
Not so sure I'm mature beyond my years, since I let my hormones and mouth get the better of me when I snapped on multiple posters early today, but I'm still asking for forgiveness on that part, so here's hoping that understanding and grace can abound!
FSH 33, AMH .29
4 Chemical Pregnancies
Junky Tubes with endo
Removed Uterine Septum and polyps in 2009
Short LP- Respond well to Progesterone
Trying since March 2008 with no children
I don't think it's odd at all
|February 24 2011, 2:12 AM |
I can certainly understand your desire to move on to DE. You must be so TIRED of this by now. I know that after a few years of ttc, I was so eager to PARENT that the road to achieving that goal was irrelevant.
I was actually suggesting the immune treatments in addition to DE IVF or to TTC naturally. I didn't mean to imply that I thought you should do OE IVF first.
I do wonder why the REs think an IVF-transfered embryo would be less likely to miscarry than a naturally conceived one. I have heard of others who had IVF after multiple miscarriages so you're definitely not the first to have an RE suggest it, but I don't understand it. Is it just that they watch to see what's happening from the beginning with hormone levels, etc? Does anybody know?
As far as that other stuff, ((hugs)).
((Hugs)) from me too.
|February 24 2011, 4:15 AM |
You are really going through the mill right now and I really hope you make some progress soon in terms of your plans for the future.
I am another person who didn't really mourn the loss of the genetic connection. I tried IVF with my own eggs twice and it was so crap I never even made it to transfer. On the other hand, DE gave me real hope for success and I was relieved that I could rule hereditary alcoholism (rife in both sides of my family) out of my children's genetic hereitage.
Keep posting - I hear you speaking from your gut and honestly I have found these boards to be the best forums for the giving and receiving of honest communication on this subject. Best of luck!
What about the child caring about a genetic connection?
|February 24 2011, 7:19 AM |
That maybe something to factor in as well? I do think that it is obviously Lauren's decision and agree that further testing seems logical. I think for all kinds of reasons, not least the child that trying with OE seems a good way to go especially as Lauren is so young and does get pregnant.
Re: What about the child caring about a genetic connection?
|February 24 2011, 9:28 AM |
This is a good point and leaves me much to consider