The senate has just waged war on individual citizens by taxing their bonuses 90%. I don't care how dispicable those bonuses were, these are INDIVIDUALS who have been singled out by the government. You had better hope the goverment doesn't get pissed off at YOU. Barney Frank is asking for a list of names.
~~life isn't about how to survive the storm but how to dance in the rain~~
When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends.
Japanese Proverb
IMO Those individuals purposely and with personal greed as their driving force, helped run their companies into the ground. Those individuals begged for the government to help bail them out. Those individuals acted like irresponsible teenagers who when they get in over their heads beg mommy and daddy to bail them out. If mommy and daddy bail them out... they should put such a hurt on the irresponsible teens that they might learn a lesson about begging for help from mommy and daddy. A bailout should not be pleasant for those being bailed out. This is one part of the bailout that I agree with.
IMO Those individuals purposely and with personal greed as their driving force, helped run their companies into the ground.
Your OPINION of them has nothing to do with the law and the fact the government is targeting them. It IS despicable that they got the bonuses...but the government exempted them.
U-N-C-O-N-S-T-I-T-U-T-I-O-N-A-L
~~life isn't about how to survive the storm but how to dance in the rain~~
When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends. Japanese Proverb
This message has been edited by susanklmr on Mar 19, 2009 6:06 PM
Well ... it's perhaps not so simple. I certainly agree that, in general, they cannot constitutionally create taxes targeted at specific individuals.
The extra wrinkle here, however, is that we're talking about companies that took TARP funds. This may create a condition that makes this constitutional. I'm not sure ...
The analogy that's coming to mind is the national speed limit. Congress has no constitutional power to impose a national speed limit. So what they did was pass a law saying only states that enacted the speed limit would get federal highway funds.
It's far from a perfect analogy, but the thought is that this targeted tax might be allowable by virtue of the federal funding to the companies.
I certainly agree that, in general, they cannot constitutionally create taxes targeted at specific individuals.
I agree with that. Once again, we find ourselves in unchartered waters. These bonuses should NOT have been paid out, not with taxpayer money. This is yet another example of the bailout money going to the wrong people!! I worked Wall St for years, I know about these retention bonuses, and why they are paid... but they were paid to the very people who drove AIG off the rails. These guys are literally a dime a dozen now, what with so many out of work. The original bail out money is being squandered, it was paid out with out anyone paying attention to what it was then used for. Its ridiculous.
edited to add: Im listening to the news, a load of Republicans voted yes on this.
************************************** Life is the continual demonstration of the power of thinking positive and having faith.
This message has been edited by MissSable on Mar 19, 2009 7:07 PM
I really don't like this way of getting the money back, but they are not going after individuals, it applies to anyone from any company who took the bail out money.
What this whole bonus situation at Fannie Mae and AIG tells us is that the elite business people (execs and board members) and idiot politicians haven't "got it" yet. They are still acting like they can suck up treasure that they are supposed to be stewards of, or give our tax money to their cronies. They just can't help themselves, it seems. What more do they need to change their behavior? A French Revolution and the guillotine? Drag them into the public square and demonstrate to everyone that this is serious?
Look, fellow conservatives... I'm all for the sanctity of contracts and incentive/performance bonuses, but now we're talking millions of dollars for people who drove their companies over the cliff and have taken our tax money so that APPARENTLY they can behave just like they always have.
Legally, I'm not sure you can retroactively tax someone. Chalk this up to another object lesson that government can't be trusted and the new American business people are, in many cases, corrupt.
Time for deep and REAL change.
*****
You can borrow from the Devil
You can borrow from a friend
But the Devil will give you twenty
When your friend only got ten
- Ramblin Jack Elliot
The senate has just waged war on individual citizens by taxing their bonuses 90%. I don't care how dispicable those bonuses were, these are INDIVIDUALS who have been singled out by the government. You had better hope the goverment doesn't get pissed off at YOU. Barney Frank is asking for a list of names.
At the risk of the father-daughter dog-bone team dragging out the "victim" thing again, all I can say is welcome to the club. It's not a particularly charitable attitude, but there is a certain measure of satisfaction in seeing Congress apply their S.O.P. to other citizens, and earning themselves some well-deserved spotlight glare in the process.
Look, fellow conservatives... I'm all for the sanctity of contracts and incentive/performance bonuses, but now we're talking millions of dollars for people who drove their companies over the cliff and have taken our tax money so that APPARENTLY they can behave just like they always have.
It isn't about the money. When has government money ever *Not* been taken advantage of? The people of AIG were/are responsible for the success/failure of their company, *not* the American taxpayer! So big stupid Uncle Sugar jumps in where he has no business, with *our* money, and does what? Cluster-fucks the entire process, from start to finish! No one read the goddam legislation before they passed it, Obama did not read the goddam bill before he signed it, and some stupid-assed Senate committee *allowed, and made an exception for these specific bonuses to be exempt*!!!
So now what? Do you want to pass a retroactive 90% tax on every executive who ever worked for a company that received a government contract? Should Barney McCarthy get a list of their names? What's the goddam difference? You want to guillotine some people? Start with Congress! The rest of us can easily sort things out from there! It's OUR fucking money!
A question for those that keep saying these bonuses went to AIG employees who took the company down, derailed it, etc.:
How can you be sure of this since you, I, nor anyone else at this point know who these people are that received the bonuses?
Maybe some, or even all, of these employees helped keep the company afloat before collapse and even during the times since AIG received TARP funds. Maybe they have contributed to recouping some of the lost money and have been busy attempting to increase profits, thereby lowering the money/risk to the taxpayer.
To say they should all go down, and without knowing the details of their work and accomplishments is just wrong, imo, because none of us have the details. The Obama camp has you right where they want you....diversions and selective outrage over something that they, themselves, could have monitored and stopped dead in it's tracks. It's both sickening and frightening that some of you are so easily manipulated.
And, for the record, I don't know if these people deserved a retention bonus. Maybe some do. Maybe some don't. None of you know either. You're reacting to this with emotion, not facts. And, seem to be enjoying outrage you've so easily adapted to.
Gee, I guess it's OK with you then that they virtually used your money to go on with business as usual. Besides, the IRS rules always single out people for various reasons and no one ever makes them stop.
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"We are all equal, but we definitely are not the same"
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I think never. Based upon the mob mentality seen thus far, who would even take the risk of that kind of personal exposure? Look at the crowds Madoff enjoyed. And, those people in the Madoff crowds hadn't been deliberately stirred up by the president, congress, media. With these bonuses, the warmup act already has people revved up for the headliner.
Gee, I guess it's OK with you then that they virtually used your money to go on with business as usual. Besides, the IRS rules always single out people for various reasons and no one ever makes them stop.
No, it's not okay, because they didn't have my permission to use my money! It was thrown at them by a bunch of ignorant dipshits who didn't have a frigging clue what they were going to do with it, because they didn't bother to read what they were passing! The IRS acts more or less within the bounds of the Constitution and the penal codes. Congress passing a *retroactive* law to punish people *they* rewarded does not!
Gee, I guess it's OK with you then that they virtually used your money to go on with business as usual.
No, that is not okay. The government took my money and did that, not AIG. There are contracts. The government can't dictate those contracts. They have overstepped their authority. And now they are gunning for specific individuals and placing a special tax on them. I want to know....Why do you not find an issue with this? For someone who claims to have been so mistreated and singled out for your orientation, your rights being trampled...you certainly don't have the gumption to fight for anyone else's rights!!! Why do you think anyone should worry about yours?
Besides, the IRS rules always single out people for various reasons and no one ever makes them stop.
LOL..read a book Roby. the IRS doesn't "make" the rules. They ENFORCE them. The legislature determines ALL of the tax laws, how much they charge, what is taxable, what is not....NOT THE IRS. They are charged to investigate whomever the legislators tell them to...they also audit people whose tax returns seem out of sinc. They are also charged with auditing a sampling of all taxpayers. They are governed by the legislative branch, and they report to the judicial branch when there is a law breaker. In any event, any punishment or collection must be done within guidelines already determined. They don't make them up as they go along.
You are completely comparing apples to oranges.
~~life isn't about how to survive the storm but how to dance in the rain~~
When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends.
Japanese Proverb
So what they did was pass a law saying only states that enacted the speed limit would get federal highway funds.
You are correct. That is also why hospitals banned smoking very early on. Medicare withheld funds until they did.
It's far from a perfect analogy, but the thought is that this targeted tax might be allowable by virtue of the federal funding to the companies
Again, you are correct...HOWEVER, they already hammered out the language, gave them the money, and are NOW trying to break that contract. The recommendation was in there to withhold the bonuses but the administration (who is that) put it BACK in. They can't change it now...
~~life isn't about how to survive the storm but how to dance in the rain~~
When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends.
Japanese Proverb
Well, I see no one has bothered to answer the question I posed upthread:
A question for those that keep saying these bonuses went to AIG employees who took the company down, derailed it, etc.:
How can you be sure of this since you, I, nor anyone else at this point know who these people are that received the bonuses?
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Those who have been and keep saying the bonuses went to the 'bad, bad' AIG employees who took the company down and helped derail it must only be spewing the blog or media talking points WITHOUT any real knowledge of who these bonus recipients are or what they did to earn those bonuses, under company retention. As I said, some of these employees may have done wonders to keep AIG afloat and reducing the taxpayer's 'loan', therefore more than earning their keep. Seems it's just too easy for some of you to NOT THINK or QUESTION things anymore since the Obamanation came to pass.
Total bull shit and you know it. They are notorious for treating different cases differently and sometimes not within the rules. The idiots accused my partner of receiving money from an IRA and not reporting it as income. The 1099 indicated it was rolled over into a qualifying IRA. The whole incident smells of an attempted slam. They are famous for it and, even though you have the right papers, you need to go and explain everything and you are guilty until you prove yourself innocent, instead of them looking at their own f*cking data that was reported to them by Dryfus Funds. Luckily, I save evrything and write wonderful, simple English letters that even an IRS agent can understand. But, if they follow the rulke so exactly, why would they possible miss their own code on a 1099? They just sent back the papers I submitted and never even said they were sorry for making a stupid mistake. So, please, don't defend the IRS to me like you have a family member working for them.
Gotta go, we have comp tickets to a new Broadway play.
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This message has been edited by roby2000 on Mar 22, 2009 1:42 PM
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