"Police heard no gunfire after they arrived but waited for about an hour before entering the building to make sure it was safe for officers. They then spent two hours searching the building."
This timeline is in most every news report, and is apparently accurate. I'm not surprised at this tactic in this culture. Jim's disdain for "John Wayne" tactics is altogether pervasive. Oh well, another part of what it means to be a person of character, down the tubes. Police are *paid* to storm into gunfights! It's their *job*! Why the hell else do they dress up in all that horribly expensive "SWAT" crap for? Pictures? It is unconscienable, and unacceptable to allow dozens of terrified citizens cower helplessly in hiding places for a goddam *hour*! Did the cops "protect", or "serve" these citizens? What if the gunman had decided to stroll around a shoot a dozen more people in their hiding places instead of whacking himself when he did? Would the cops have done anything to prevent it, other than to make sure *they* were safe? Yes, hindsight is always 20/20, but had the cops stormed the building upon arrival, they would have found a dead gunman. When the shooting stops, that's *usually* the case! duh! How many badly wounded people died during that hour? You can be sure that question won't be asked by the media!
No, I'm not a sideline quarterback. I *have* stormed into gunfights! It was a different era, thank God. Cops then would *never* have strutted around outside, *looking* all mean and bad for the cameras, while innocent people were under fire, and dying in a building! Gheezuz, what the hell are cops for??? If *you* are ever caught in such a situation, pray for an *old-school* person with some ass left in their britches and a concealed-carry gun to be among you. It's the only real chance you have. The people you *pay* to protect you are too intererested in their own safety to be of any use. Such is the 21st. Century.
Gus, in a way I can understand your statement, but we were trained in EMS not to enter a scene until it was "cleared" by law enforcement; the theory being that a dead EMT does no one any good. I would imagine it would also apply to dead law enforcement personnel, that they should take precautions for their own safety so that they remain alive to assist others.
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I am a Nobody.
Nobody is Perfect.
Therefore I am Perfect.
Gus, in a way I can understand your statement, but we were trained in EMS not to enter a scene until it was "cleared" by law enforcement; the theory being that a dead EMT does no one any good. I would imagine it would also apply to dead law enforcement personnel, that they should take precautions for their own safety so that they remain alive to assist others.
The obvious difference between the EMS and police, is that the police have guns, and are theoretically trained in their use. Why bother if they are only going to pick their teeth, and pose for pictures? Just as obvious, one does not engage an armed opponent with any intention of losing the engagement! That's theoretically what the training is for! And in the spirit of cold calculation, police outnumber armed lunatics by hundreds to one in the vast majority of incidents. Lose one or two cops in the act of saving a dozen or so innocent people? I thought that's what the meaning of the job was? I've never understood the additional severeity of legal penalties, and public outrage over the killing of a cop in the line of duty. They are *supposed* to draw the fire of the criminal element! They have guns, and the training to use them, *unlike* the innocent, unarmed, and untrained civilians that they are *hired* to protect!
I think I actually agree with Gus here. I was wondering about the same thing when I read the account. Isn't the purpose of a SWAT team to go in as soon as possible? Isn't that what law enforcement at Columbine was criticized for, taking too long before they entered the bldg?
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"And the song that I am singing is a prayer for nonbelievers
Come and join us stand together, we will find a better way" ..........John Denver
If you're curious enough, google up an account of the Charles Whitman incident, when he went to the top of a landmark tower on the U.of Texas campus in Austin, and began shooting people at random, at great distances with high-powered rifles. Read about how that rampage was brought to a conclusion back in a different time. I suppose today, police would simply bring up a tank or a howitzer, and blow the top off of a valueable, and historic old landmark building. God forbid they should ever actually do their jobs, and face down their adversary eye-to-eye.
gus.
This message has been edited by gus-mccrea on Apr 4, 2009 1:50 PM
This timeline is in most every news report, and is apparently accurate. I'm not surprised at this tactic in this culture. Jim's disdain for "John Wayne" tactics is altogether pervasive. Oh well, another part of what it means to be a person of character, down the tubes. Police are *paid* to storm into gunfights! It's their *job*! Why the hell else do they dress up in all that horribly expensive "SWAT" crap for? Pictures? It is unconscienable, and unacceptable to allow dozens of terrified citizens cower helplessly in hiding places for a goddam *hour*! Did the cops "protect", or "serve" these citizens? What if the gunman had decided to stroll around a shoot a dozen more people in their hiding places instead of whacking himself when he did? Would the cops have done anything to prevent it, other than to make sure *they* were safe? Yes, hindsight is always 20/20, but had the cops stormed the building upon arrival, they would have found a dead gunman. When the shooting stops, that's *usually* the case! duh! How many badly wounded people died during that hour? You can be sure that question won't be asked by the media!
No, I'm not a sideline quarterback. I *have* stormed into gunfights! It was a different era, thank God. Cops then would *never* have strutted around outside, *looking* all mean and bad for the cameras, while innocent people were under fire, and dying in a building! Gheezuz, what the hell are cops for??? If *you* are ever caught in such a situation, pray for an *old-school* person with some ass left in their britches and a concealed-carry gun to be among you. It's the only real chance you have. The people you *pay* to protect you are too intererested in their own safety to be of any use. Such is the 21st. Century.
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I've asked you repeatedly to not take my words out of context. Yet you continue to do so. I'm sorry gus, you DO NOT get to interpret what I say. I'm sure you think you know what I stand for, but, largely, you have gotten it wrong over the years.
I never suggested that at some place, at some time, that a "John Wayne/Storm the barricades" approach was wrong. I just suggested that that wasn't the only tool in the toolkit, and those who thought it was were shallow and thoughtless.
Given the circumstances in Binghampton (which you are assessing from 2000 miles away), I am tempted to agree with you.. That the whole situation might have been better served by the SWAT team going in early.
Of course, what we don't know is that if they had people outside who had been hostages, and what they were saying about the placement of people inside. You can storm the citadel if all you care about is killing the perp, and don't give a shit about killing hostages.
Even the Israelis had it totally practiced, and "gamed", before they rescued the hostages from Idi Amin.
I've asked you repeatedly to not take my words out of context. Yet you continue to do so. I'm sorry gus, you DO NOT get to interpret what I say. I'm sure you think you know what I stand for, but, largely, you have gotten it wrong over the years.
Sure I do, when it's posted on the board. Not only do you do it all the time yourself, you then assume it as gospel and begin to question people based on your assumptions!
I never suggested that at some place, at some time, that a "John Wayne/Storm the barricades" approach was wrong. I just suggested that that wasn't the only tool in the toolkit, and those who thought it was were shallow and thoughtless.
Nor did I say you did, if you will re-read what I wrote.
