I am devoted reader of RC and there is no site like it for insight and debate and I want to take some time to respond to Gavins eloquent piece.
There is a remarkable centuries old custom concerning the commons in Sweden. It is called allemansrätten literally everyones right. It is not a law but protected by their Constitution. It gives to everyone, Swede and visitor alike, the right to access nature. You can walk almost anywhere, cross properties, fence lines, pick berries and mushrooms, and if out of earshot and eyesight, pitch a tent for the night. One rule: dont disturb, dont destroy. No trespassing signs are not allowed.
Imagine the level of cooperation and trust this tradition demands of a society. I cant imagine it in my home state of Virginia.
Swedes grow up with it, its like mothers milk. Allemansrätten is the Swedes ubuntu. As an outsider, the principle and practice of this right to access nature is clearly a fundamental experience that brings them closer to nature. They are more concerned because they have access to it. It seeds openness and transparency in their democracy. The right is intensely individual but with collective responsibilities. The whole country is a commons beneath the property lines.
And so it is no wonder Sweden has already surpassed its Kyoto obligations. Every house and business in Stockholm received a booklet on Earth day explaining how we will reduce emissions 10% in 2010, 25% by 2015 and be fossil fuel free latest 2050.
Another city, Örebro, is about to launch their effort, 30% by 2015. The town of Växjö is famous for its almost 40% reduction. And so on.
This not some sudden rush to act. Stockholm, then under Social Democratic leadership, began in 1995 I guess they actually took the UN climate treaty seriously and are already 25% below 1990 levels of emissions. The new aggressive targets are under a Conservative city council. Its not a party thing.
The carbon tax has worked since the early 90s. But their European Union Cap & Trade system is a disaster and this is a huge chunk of Swedish emissions. And they are well aware of their share of production outsourced to say, China. Now the Environmental minister is calling for an EU CO2 tax. A newcomer to the field, he caught on fast. Swedens Climate Science Panel (politicians incredibly listen to scientists and follow their recommendations) set the long term GHG target back in September 2007: 400 CO2e by 2100. Remarkably close to 350 CO2 by 2100. No hoopla, no fanfare, no alarm bells. No screaming headlines.
Finally, the Swedish development agency has shifted its focus and other than acute emergencies, all aid and investment will fund climate measures in developing countries and as far as I know Sweden is the only country to allocate 1% of the nations budget to development.
And personally, my wife and I reside in a new part of town, Hammaby Sjöstad. Developed as a model of Swedish sustainable practices when they sought the 2004 Olympics, it is now a world leading urban design that almost met its goal of a 40% reduction in environmental impact - and now enters Phase II with a doubling of that goal. Our personal Earth footprint is one; our carbon per capita is equal to India.
You get my point. It aint a perfect country, it has its downsides like we all do, but on the whole Swedes are getting it done. They dont shout and pout and go off on diatribes. They dont wait for everyone else. They dont wring their hands. They dont brag (but maybe they should). They just do it. And for me, I see a clear connection between their individual right of access to nature as a blessed commons with collective responsibility and their common sense approach to tackling the greatest threat humanity has faced.
As luck would have it, Sweden takes over the EU Presidency July 1 and rides it into Copenhagen. This is their shot to make a difference. I am not sure their quiet consensus-building sense of the whole manner will do the trick in a world of self-interested nation-states. But if the world just took a closer look at their results, economic and ecologic, we might just believe that yes we can do it.
Comment by James Wine 9 May 2009 @ 3:42 AM
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." -- Thomas Jefferson
We live in a society exquisitely dependent on science and technology, in which hardly anyone knows anything about science and technology. - Carl Sagan
I believe that every right implies a responsibility, every opportunity an obligation; every possession, a duty. - John D. Rockefeller, Jr.
Re: Damn those socialist scandivhoovians its horrible over there
May 18 2009, 6:49 PM
See ya! Bon voyage! Doors/asses, you know..
The point, Gus, is that Sweden has done all this while remaining a highly industrialized first world nation with a longer life expectancy and a higher average standard of living than the United States. All of which puts the lie to the the wingnuts' claims of economic disaster that would happen if we implemented policies to reduce our carbon emissions.
Re: Damn those socialist scandivhoovians its horrible over there
May 18 2009, 8:37 PM
The point, Gus, is that Sweden has done all this while remaining a highly industrialized first world nation with a longer life expectancy and a higher average standard of living than the United States. All of which puts the lie to the the wingnuts' claims of economic disaster that would happen if we implemented policies to reduce our carbon emissions.
And we are not Sweden, in more ways than I am going to bother to list. Yet we are cleaner than China, for more reasons than I am going to bother to list, who is not as clean as Mexico, for more reasons than I am going to bother to list. Life is complicated like that, ergo: If Sweden strikes one as such a perfect example of social attempts to save themselves from imminent catastrophe, then one should transport one's buttocks to to the comforts of within their borders, post haste, before it's too late.
Re: Damn those socialist scandivhoovians its horrible over there
May 18 2009, 8:48 PM
So Gus ... Why do you think we're incapable of doing what Sweden could do so successfully?
And this bullshit about moving there is deeply offensive, Gus. I'm as American as you are. This is my home and my nation. Don't you fucking dare tell me to leave it.
Re: Damn those socialist scandivhoovians its horrible over there
May 18 2009, 8:49 PM
The patriot stays and fights for his own nation, and as I should remind you gus, you have only the one nationality, so you are stuck. I, however, thanks to my mother have dual citizenship so I could bail at any time. I choose to remain here and help to hold the country to its constitutional ideals.
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." -- Thomas Jefferson
We live in a society exquisitely dependent on science and technology, in which hardly anyone knows anything about science and technology. - Carl Sagan
I believe that every right implies a responsibility, every opportunity an obligation; every possession, a duty. - John D. Rockefeller, Jr.
Re: Damn those socialist scandivhoovians its horrible over there
May 18 2009, 9:24 PM
So Gus ... Why do you think we're incapable of doing what Sweden could do so successfully?
A whole multitude of reasons, and pages of explanation, all of dubious net effect, having a negative impact on motivation. But at a gloss, there are many more of us, and we inhabit a hugely larger area, and we aren't Swedish, and we don't have their history, and we aren't governed as they are, just for starters.
And this bullshit about moving there is deeply offensive, Gus. I'm as American as you are. This is my home and my nation. Don't you fucking dare tell me to leave it.
I suppose it would be, but you tell me what the short-interest-span, do-it-now-or-we'll-all-die, alarmist's solution is to seeing Sweden as some sort of panacea social model for the rest of us, on *any* goddam topic? And there is plenty of your attitude to go around! "Don't like smoke? Get the hell out of *my* restaurant then!". See how that model works too? Fucking socialists... pffttt...
Re: Damn those socialist scandivhoovians its horrible over there
May 18 2009, 9:30 PM
I suppose it would be, but you tell me what the short-interest-span, do-it-now-or-we'll-all-die, alarmist's solution is to seeing Sweden as some sort of panacea social model for the rest of us, on any goddam topic?
Not a panacea, for God's sake. Just an example of successful reduction of carbon emissions whilst maintaining extremely high living standard and a highly technological society.
And there is plenty of your attitude to go around! "Don't like smoke? Get the hell out of my restaurant then!". See how that model works too? Fucking socialists... pffttt...
It's not your fucking restaurant. It's every bit as much mine. And I'm not fucking leaving. Fucking selfish and self-centered Neanderthal shithead ... pffffttt ...
Re: Damn those socialist scandivhoovians its horrible over there
May 18 2009, 9:49 PM
I suppose it would be, but you tell me what the short-interest-span, do-it-now-or-we'll-all-die, alarmist's solution is to seeing Sweden as some sort of panacea social model for the rest of us, on any goddam topic?
Not a panacea, for God's sake. Just an example of successful reduction of carbon emissions whilst maintaining extremely high living standard and a highly technological society.
Yes, some fraction of our size in both population, and area, with a far more simplified climate to work with. There are all kinds of revolutionary experiments in a multitude of fields, that work splendidly in model, or prototype form. Expand them to "real world" size, and they fail miserably.
And there is plenty of your attitude to go around! "Don't like smoke? Get the hell out of my restaurant then!". See how that model works too? Fucking socialists... pffttt...
It's not your fucking restaurant. It's every bit as much mine. And I'm not fucking leaving. Fucking selfish and self-centered Neanderthal shithead ... pffffttt ...
No, Jan, it *belongs* to some *individual*, who *owns* it! And this is such a profoundly fundamental point. Which is that the first casualty for *all* of your policies, is *always* legitimate private property rights. Which is *precisely* why the holy grail of "choice", which you so love to wrap yourself in, is somehow absent from the equation, when it isn't an option you perceive as necessary for *your* agenda.
Re: Damn those socialist scandivhoovians its horrible over there
May 18 2009, 10:07 PM
Yes, some fraction of our size in both population, and area, with a far more simplified climate to work with. There are all kinds of revolutionary experiments in a multitude of fields, that work splendidly in model, or prototype form. Expand them to "real world" size, and they fail miserably.
Oh, bullshit. A nation of millions of people is not a "prototype." The only part of the Swedish energy model that wouldn't scale to the United States is hydrodynamic power.
No, Jan, it belongs to some *individual*, who owns it! And this is such a profoundly fundamental point.
Oh, I thought you were engaging in some obscure metaphor of nation as restaurant.
For your information, whilst I am extremely allergic to tobacco smoke I nevertheless opposed laws banning smoking in restaurants.
Which is that the first casualty for all of your policies, is always legitimate private property rights. Which is precisely why the holy grail of "choice", which you so love to wrap yourself in, is somehow absent from the equation, when it isn't an option you perceive as necessary for your agenda.
Well there's the rub. Legitimate private property rights are not absolute if that means harming everybody else. Thus, if you own a segment of a river bank you can't just divert more than your fair share and deprive all those other property owners downstream of their property rights. And you can't dump your wastes in there and poison all the cattle downstream. I could go on for weeks on end listing examples of how property rights of one set of persons can only be protected by limiting property rights another (quite probably overlapping) set. And vice-versa and every which way. The Randian concept of the self-made and entirely independent man is a myth, Gus. It hasn't existed since we stopped being hunter-gatherers, and it really didn't entirely exist then.
This message has been edited by jrooth on May 18, 2009 10:09 PM
Re: Damn those socialist scandivhoovians its horrible over there
May 18 2009, 11:19 PM
Well there's the rub. Legitimate private property rights are not absolute if that means harming everybody else. Thus, if you own a segment of a river bank you can't just divert more than your fair share and deprive all those other property owners downstream of their property rights. And you can't dump your wastes in there and poison all the cattle downstream. I could go on for weeks on end listing examples of how property rights of one set of persons can only be protected by limiting property rights another (quite probably overlapping) set. And vice-versa and every which way. The Randian concept of the self-made and entirely independent man is a myth, Gus. It hasn't existed since we stopped being hunter-gatherers, and it really didn't entirely exist then.
And "there lies the rub". It's a scale, like most everything else. Americans, more than any other people, because of their heritage, *have* a heritage, of working things out amongst themselves, and relying upon a court system no less brilliant than the other Founder's works, when an issue solution evaded them. Secondly, Americans specifically, and people in general, are decent critters, ever-mindfull of the rights of others, by a *huge* majority. This runs 180* counter to the Liberal ideology of people as little more than beasts, to be neither trusted, or allowed to manage their own affairs.
So the upshot, I suppose, is the conflict of *ideals*. Liberals focus on the man pissing downstream, and see that as justification for govt. regulation of men, streams, and pissing. The rest of us go tell the man he's being a numbnut, and quit pissing downstream, or we'll either sue him, or kick his ass, his choice. Or maybe the alternate idea of hundreds, if not thousands of stream-dwellers, all living harmoniously, because pissing downstream is an obviously careless thing to do, with no need of any govt. regulations whatsoever.
You see, it takes this mental picture of "blood in the streets", for example to freak yourself out, and run screaming down the street for gun-control. Never-fucking mind that the image is somewhat severe, and unrealistic. There *could* be blood in the streets if we don't do something! Justified... end of story. Well, Jan, it isn't much of a frigging leap to see the same shit everywhere you look amongst the Liberal agenda. There were no body trucks making their morning rounds to clean the streets in the 50s, when smokers were *everywhere*. I was there! There was/is no *carnage on the hiways* when the speed limits were raised back to 70 after Carter's little brain-fart. How many examples do you want?
It all boils down to a function of how we're wired. And you and I have different wiring. And I am realistic enough to know full well that your wiring has carried the day, and just as gratefull that I won't live to see it's ultimate result. I had my "shining times" in another world, and I'm not selfish enough to ask for any more than that.
Re: Damn those socialist scandivhoovians its horrible over there
May 19 2009, 7:31 AM
And you can't dump your wastes in there and poison all the cattle downstream. I could go on for weeks on end listing examples of how property rights of one set of persons can only be protected by limiting property rights another (quite probably overlapping) set. And vice-versa and every which way. The Randian concept of the self-made and entirely independent man is a myth, Gus. It hasn't existed since we stopped being hunter-gatherers, and it really didn't entirely exist then.
The Randian concept of the self-made and entirely independent man is a myth
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and the marxist utopian dream of socialist harmonious society that all works together like a well designed clock is also a myth...and has collapsed ,historically, everytime it has been tried...(for the same reasons)
The two most difficult challenges facing Scandinavia today are transfer of authority away from Scandinavia to the EU, as regional integration continues to deepen , and the influx of non Scandinavian immigrants.Scandinavia has traditionally preferred autonomy to integration,and, until recently,has remained more aloof from European political cooperation.Yet in today's europe ,Scandinavia is increasingly bound by decisions made outside of the territorial boundaries of these societies-a difficult political reality that requires new types of partnerships and, in many instances, a change in the way Scandinavia has organized its own institutions and policies.
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immigration threatens
hate crimes increase
EU power threatens to usurp
Re: Damn those socialist scandivhoovians its horrible over there
May 19 2009, 8:12 AM
And you can't dump your wastes in there and poison all the cattle downstream. I could go on for weeks on end listing examples of how property rights of one set of persons can only be protected by limiting property rights another
**************************
you also can't come onto someone's property and tell them that their generational way of life is now extinct because you believe it to be against the social order with some trumped up "scientific" computer model that describes doom and rising tides despite the lack of real evidence (the tides being in the same place that they have been for hundreds of years ,as witnessed by his own generations of inhabitants)
individual private property rights and the capitalist system are the solution for the "tragedy of the commons"...not imposing socialistic management by mindless bureaucracy
if bureaucracies were as efficient as they are claimed to be...why don't orphanages work so swimmingly well?...because sometimes there is no substitute for freedom, property rights and family.
socialist utopias not withstanding, there are millions of examples of independent living that does not infringe upon the rights of others (in a significant way as to change the quality of their lives)
there is NO example of socialism enforced to work in a way that individuals are not infringed by the bureaucratic bumbling mess in significant harmful ways (or eventually murdered for their daring interference in the exalted "system"
This message has been edited by gillis7 on May 19, 2009 8:30 AM
Re: Damn those socialist scandivhoovians its horrible over there
May 19 2009, 10:25 AM
One of the greatest experiences one can have is to actually live (not just visit) for a time in other countries. The first and foremost realizations is that many other countries have different yet equally good ways to accomplish a wonderful living environment for their citizens. To actually believe that one's own country is the best country ever is to show one's provincialism. There are various countries with higher levels of accomplishments for their citizens than this country. That doesn't make them better that the US or the US worse than them. It just says they are different.
Re: Damn those socialist scandivhoovians its horrible over there
May 19 2009, 11:19 AM
You "own" America, Gus? Who says? Who is to say you shouldn't get the fuck out if you don't like Obama or the Democrats running the country? Door/ass...etc etc.
Re: Damn those socialist scandivhoovians its horrible over there
May 19 2009, 11:21 AM
to be neither trusted, or allowed to manage their own affairs.
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And there in lies the Repub rube. Reproductive rights, gay marriage rights..... Yet, conservative noses seem to always feel they have every right to intrude upon matters that some how - in some way - pertain to sex or relationships.
So...funny, women can't be "trusted" to manage their own medical care, gays can't be "trusted" to marry..............
Re: Damn those socialist scandivhoovians its horrible over there
May 19 2009, 11:25 AM
You "own" America, Gus? Who says? Who is to say you shouldn't get the fuck out if you don't like Obama or the Democrats running the country? Door/ass...etc etc.
Of course not, you miss the point. You see, I'm *not* the one citing other countries as models for how we should live. I'm *not* the malcontent, I'm *not* the one complaining. But you can be sure, if I was as unhappy here as all these whiners who think other countries are just *soooo* much more civilized, or progressive, I would beat feet in a heartbeat. Sorry, but I'm just happy as a clam, right where I am...
Re: Damn those socialist scandivhoovians its horrible over there
May 19 2009, 11:28 AM
We learn from eachother gus, I don't think that is such a bad thing to look at a country that has their shit in order and take the good aspects of what has WORKED and apply it. WHY is that such a bad thing???? To want to improve upon our country's faults?
Re: Damn those socialist scandivhoovians its horrible over there
May 19 2009, 11:34 AM
We learn from eachother gus, I don't think that is such a bad thing to look at a country that has their shit in order and take the good aspects of what has WORKED and apply it. WHY is that such a bad thing???? To want to improve upon our country's faults?
It all depends on what "benefits", and at what costs. But there's not a thing wrong with looking into it at all.
No nation is perfect, not even America.
True, but I see few examples of boatloads of immigrants risking their very lives to get to France. Could there be some connection there?
Re: Damn those socialist scandivhoovians its horrible over there
May 19 2009, 11:40 AM
Sorry, but I'm just happy as a clam, right where I am
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Good, then stop your bitching and whining about all the terrible liberals picking on you.
You miss the point again, a big one. You see, one can still be happy as a clam while one fights the Good Fight. I haven't heard of a single Conservative going into therapy because of the outcome of an election. You think there might be a connection? I mean really, even after a complete rout of the Congress, and the election of the Him as prez, many Liberals are *still* miserable, and depressed, and pessimistic. So yeah, I think there *is* a connection...
Re: Damn those socialist scandivhoovians its horrible over there
May 19 2009, 11:53 AM
immigrants from where? Here??? Sweden?
Thousands in the recent past from Viet Nam, Cambodia, Laos, etc. These days, it appears to be Southern Hemisphere types, either by boat, or up the ismuth through Mexico. America is such a crappy place, one would think they would know better...
Re: Damn those socialist scandivhoovians its horrible over there
May 19 2009, 12:03 PM
and the election of the Him as prez, many Liberals are *still* miserable, and depressed, and pessimistic
------
Really? I thought we were praying and worshipping at the Obama Alter and waiting for him to pay our bills. Darn, now we're miserable AND mindlessly inlove with our Savior. How did we manage that simultaneously???
Re: Damn those socialist scandivhoovians its horrible over there
May 19 2009, 12:08 PM
No, I said I see *few* examples of boatloads of immigrants going to France, drawing that comparison to the millions that come here.
gus.
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Millions? Really? We allow millions of immigrants? That's what you're basing your arguments on? First, what are the immigration laws for France? How about America? What about size? Job availability? Proximity? Do none of these factors take place in the minds of immigrants?
Re: Damn those socialist scandivhoovians its horrible over there
May 19 2009, 12:08 PM
Really? I thought we were praying and worshipping at the Obama Alter and waiting for him to pay our bills. Darn, now we're miserable AND mindlessly inlove with our Savior. How did we manage that simultaneously???
Well, you haven't heard any of that from me, but as long as you brought it up, it's because neither logic, or consistancy has anything to do with Liberal thinking. Therefore, the Left is perfectly capable of worship and misery at the same time. Therapists love it...
Re: Damn those socialist scandivhoovians its horrible over there
May 19 2009, 12:15 PM
it's because neither logic, or consistancy has anything to do with Liberal thinking. Therefore, the Left is perfectly capable of worship and misery at the same time
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Oh yes, here we gooooo again. You and the Conservative brain are oh so superior. Who ever said I disagreed with many of the things that you have posted lately gus?
It's just in your mind, no matter how much we could agree on many things - in your superior conservative brain, I will always be the inferior and lesser of the intelligent humanoid than you because I have more "liberal" tendancies than you do. Therefore, It'll always be the "you and your 'liberal thinking" mentality.
Once you break out of that narrowminded tunnel that you have so firmly entrenched yourself in, lemme know. Then we can talk. Your "conservative" thinking is no better or more intelligent than the liberal thinking. Gawd, get over yourself and your saintly Republicans.
Re: Damn those socialist scandivhoovians its horrible over there
May 19 2009, 12:15 PM
Millions? Really? We allow millions of immigrants? That's what you're basing your arguments on? First, what are the immigration laws for France? How about America? What about size? Job availability? Proximity? Do none of these factors take place in the minds of immigrants?
Over the course of our history? Certainly millions. And to answer your last question, no, not much, if any. People come here because of what we *represent*! And they have been doing that since the Pilgrims! Viet Nam is a former French colony, and has a lot of French influence. I suspect passage from Viet Nam to France is a much simpler ordeal than to come here. So why on earth would *thousands* of them risk their lives to come here? Because they have *prospered* beyond anyone's expectations, except maybe their own. It isn't size, jobs, or proximity, it's *freedom*.
Re: Damn those socialist scandivhoovians its horrible over there
May 19 2009, 12:17 PM
Over the course of our history? Certainly millions.
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Ooooooooooooh, ok. Sure. And you know how many immigrants have moved to France over the course of France's history??? Englands? Because they are all socialistic countries and all combined share about the same size as America. So, when you gather up THAT info on how many have migrated between countries in Europe, we'll be able to better compare the two.
Re: Damn those socialist scandivhoovians its horrible over there
May 19 2009, 12:38 PM
Your "conservative" thinking is no better or more intelligent than the liberal thinking. Gawd, get over yourself and your saintly Republicans.
Well, yes it is, or I wouldn't subscribe to it. I'm not in therapy, I'm not miserable, or discontent, I don't have "Eco-Anxiety", I'm not afraid of my own shadow, I don't think people suck, or that the world/country is going to hell, among a lot of other things I see on the Liberal side. And that's not even the reason that I'm a Conservative! And PS, I'm not a Republican.
Re: Damn those socialist scandivhoovians its horrible over there
May 19 2009, 1:02 PM
Well, yes it is, or I wouldn't subscribe to it.
BWAHAHAHAHA! What better definition of pathological narcissism could there be than this self-referential definition of "better or more intelligent?"
I'm not in therapy, I'm not miserable, or discontent, I don't have "Eco-Anxiety",
Neither am I, Gus, nor most of my liberal friends.
I'm not afraid of my own shadow,
LOL! It isn't the liberals who are stocking up on guns, ammo and survival food for fear of the commie obamabots and their black helicopters and UN troops coming to round them up, confiscate all their property to give to undeserving black and brown folks, put them into FEMA camps (manned by gay guards no doubt) and force their children to become Muslims and have abortions ...
I don't think people suck, or that the world/country is going to hell, among a lot of other things I see on the Liberal side.
I don't thinks so either, provided we change our policies in some fairly straightforward and generally beneficial ways. I just decline to engage in your brand of willful blindness.
And that's not even the reason that I'm a Conservative!
Yeah, we know. See "pathological narcissism" above.
And PS, I'm not a Republican.
Libertarian? Constitution Party?
Just curious.
This message has been edited by jrooth on May 19, 2009 1:04 PM This message has been edited by jrooth on May 19, 2009 1:03 PM
Re: Damn those socialist scandivhoovians its horrible over there
May 19 2009, 1:06 PM
Ooooooooooooh, ok. Sure. And you know how many immigrants have moved to France over the course of France's history??? Englands? Because they are all socialistic countries and all combined share about the same size as America. So, when you gather up THAT info on how many have migrated between countries in Europe, we'll be able to better compare the two.
Hah! I'm willing to bet a dinner that the combined totals of immigrants to France and England over the course of their *loooong* histories, doesn't add up to our 200+ years worth! European populations have been pretty stratified for a huge part of that history.
Re: Damn those socialist scandivhoovians its horrible over there
May 19 2009, 1:24 PM
Well, yes it is, or I wouldn't subscribe to it.
BWAHAHAHAHA! What better definition of pathological narcissism could there be than this self-referential definition of "better or more intelligent?"
Well, exactly how many life issues do you subscribe to that you don't think are the correct ones? Isn't that kind of dumb to do so? I realize any number of people, some on this board, have not a single clue as to why they think something, other than their friends do, or it sounds cool, but I'm not one of them, and doubt that you are either.
I'm not in therapy, I'm not miserable, or discontent, I don't have "Eco-Anxiety",
Neither am I, Gus, nor most of my liberal friends.
I'm not afraid of my own shadow,
LOL! It isn't the liberals who are stocking up on guns, ammo and survival food for fear of the commie obamabots and their black helicopters and UN troops coming to round them up, confiscate all their property to give to undeserving black and brown folks, put them into FEMA camps (manned by gay guards no doubt) and force their children to become Muslims and have abortions ...
You can't have it both ways. All I have to reply here is that I don't either, nor most of my Conservative friends.
I don't think people suck, or that the world/country is going to hell, among a lot of other things I see on the Liberal side.
I don't thinks so either, provided we change our policies in some fairly straightforward and generally beneficial ways. I just decline to engage in your brand of willful blindness.
And I don't think it neccessary to add any conditional provisions. And it's way too early to know if it's "willful blindness", or common sense.
And that's not even the reason that I'm a Conservative!
Yeah, we know. See "pathological narcissism" above.
And PS, I'm not a Republican.
Libertarian? Constitution Party?
Just curious.
Nope, just a lesser-of-two-evils reluctant Republican, only because of the realities of American politics. I'm not a member, I don't contribute, I just vote that way.
Re: Damn those socialist scandivhoovians its horrible over there
May 19 2009, 2:03 PM
We are not the only nation dealing with immigrants, legal and illegal. For your information, there are other countries who also have an immigration problem, gus. This is a large country (area-wise--like Canada and Australia), so you can't compared specific numbers. Percents, land area and jobs would be a better way to understand their problems. If you are retired, you really need to see more of the world and perhaps you can make more intelligent comments of "them vs us" way of living. Right now you are talking from the view point of not really experiencing life in lots of other countries--just what you assume.
Re: Damn those socialist scandivhoovians its horrible over there
May 19 2009, 2:16 PM
The traditional right to gather mushrooms and berries on common grounds is not uniquely Swedish. I refer you to the article in this month's National Geographic about Oulank National Park in Finland. Finlanders can gather mushrooms and berries and reindeer herdsman can run their reideer in the national parks, as well. It's called "everyman's right."
So, if the writer claims a correlation between Swedish progress in its showplace environmental projects to their right to collect mushrooms, he would have to claim the same correlation for Finland and other nations with similar customs. He can't.
Sweden reduced its emmissions by 9 percent by 2006, I think. I wonder how they measured their 1990 output vs. their 2006 output? They've created some nice showplaces of environmenatl innovation and they've set themselves some great goals, but even the Environmental Objectives Council set up by the Riksdag admits that Sweden's ability to meet future goals and emmisions targets is gloomy... if they want to maintain their current standard of living.
*****
You can borrow from the Devil
You can borrow from a friend
But the Devil will give you twenty
When your friend only got ten
- Ramblin Jack Elliot
Re: Damn those socialist scandivhoovians its horrible over there
May 19 2009, 2:35 PM
Well, exactly how many life issues do you subscribe to that you don't think are the correct ones? Isn't that kind of dumb to do so? I realize any number of people, some on this board, have not a single clue as to why they think something, other than their friends do, or it sounds cool, but I'm not one of them, and doubt that you are either.
Of course I believe in the things I advocate, but I'm not so arrogant as to think that no one as intelligent or more intelligent than me couldn't disagree.
I'll relate a couple of anecdotes:
I once had about a half-hour conversation with Noam Chomsky - who is way more liberal than I am and with whom I have substantial disagreements. But I can't deny the man is a genius. The way his mind worked was a wonder to behold.
I also one time had dinner with Edward Teller and another eight or so people. Teller is way more conservative than me and there's even more that I disagree with him about. But I can't deny the man is a genius. Again, it was a wonder to watch his mind at work.
And you know something? Both of them (as well as a number of other absolutely brilliant people of various political persuasions I have met over the years) listened to my arguments and actually responded to what I argued, rather than arguing against some imaginary streotype like you always do. And while I disagreed with much of what both of them said, I found their arguments strong and well reasoned. I can't say for sure if they felt the same way about my arguments, but I can say that they gave my arguments respect.
You can't have it both ways. All I have to reply here is that I don't either, nor most of my Conservative friends.
Well you're the one who was making the stupid insinuation that liberals are afraid of their shadows. So in your response to me now, you are admitting your original insinuation was bullshit.
This message has been edited by jrooth on May 19, 2009 2:37 PM
Re: Damn those socialist scandivhoovians its horrible over there
May 19 2009, 4:55 PM
Well, exactly how many life issues do you subscribe to that you don't think are the correct ones? Isn't that kind of dumb to do so? I realize any number of people, some on this board, have not a single clue as to why they think something, other than their friends do, or it sounds cool, but I'm not one of them, and doubt that you are either.
Of course I believe in the things I advocate, but I'm not so arrogant as to think that no one as intelligent or more intelligent than me couldn't disagree.
Well to begin with, I'm not seeking agreement. Like I told Jim, I am not an arbiter, I'm an interpreter. And I am *not* so arrogant as to think that *my* interpretations should draw any converts, much less an army of them. What I believe works for me, which is zero guarantee that it will work for anyone else. But then when some wanker stands up and pronounces the intellectual equivalent of the sun rising in the west, and *is* seeking converts, then I call them on it. To me, that's "discussion". Because that is a *critical* difference Jan. A genius asswipe like Chomsky seeks to *force* his world-view upon me, at govt. gunpoint! Now how goddam *arrogant* is that! And that's the nutshell, Jan, the whole enchalada! I don't give a rat's ass whether you own a gun or not, or wear a helmet, or fasten a seat belt, *even if* I was a passionate supporter of such things! Because the *critical* difference between me and Chomsky, is that even though you may think I am a narcissist, I will *never* seek to inflict upon you my ideas by force of law!!
Re: Damn those socialist scandivhoovians its horrible over there
May 19 2009, 6:11 PM
, I will *never* seek to inflict upon you my ideas by force of law!!
In my opinion you already do when you vote Republican and you already do when you support the NRA.
Really? Do you care to elaborate in support of your opinion, or not? Name a single national policy measure supported by the NRA that was an *offensive* move, instead of a *defensive* move to prevent further incremental *offensive* moves by the *Left*.
Re: Damn those socialist scandivhoovians its horrible over there
May 19 2009, 6:37 PM
according to the conservative supreme court, assault weapons are not protected. its self-protection pistols and hunting rifles. So its ok to ban anything that might be a modern infantry arm. I keep telling you kneejerks the actual liberals will do more to protect your right than the fascists calling themselves conservatives you are following.
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." -- Thomas Jefferson
We live in a society exquisitely dependent on science and technology, in which hardly anyone knows anything about science and technology. - Carl Sagan
I believe that every right implies a responsibility, every opportunity an obligation; every possession, a duty. - John D. Rockefeller, Jr.
Re: Damn those socialist scandivhoovians its horrible over there
May 19 2009, 7:10 PM
In my opinion you already do when you vote Republican and you already do when you support the NRA.
So, are you using the force of law when you vote Democratic or Libertarian? When you support the killing and maiming of babies in the womb?
*****
You can borrow from the Devil
You can borrow from a friend
But the Devil will give you twenty
When your friend only got ten
- Ramblin Jack Elliot
Re: Damn those socialist scandivhoovians its horrible over there
May 19 2009, 7:21 PM
Repeal of the assault weapons ban, I call that an offensive move on the NRA's part.
1. The AWB wasn't repealed, it was allowed to sunset, per the provision written into the law.
2. The AWB was an *offensive* move to the Left by anti-gun activists. It's demise was a *defensive* move to return to the state of Constitutionality before the ban.
3. The attempts by activists and members of congress to write a *new* AWB have failed repeatedly. Logic would dicate that The People therefore agree with my assesment.
Re: Damn those socialist scandivhoovians its horrible over there
May 19 2009, 8:07 PM
go read DC v Heller gus. Scalia takes a nice shot at it. Fully automatic long gun for one.
Try and have some information and use a brain cell before you chime in. Its only because of the general poor quality of wing nut, that your posts have any relevance at all. You are a small frog in a cess pit gus.
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." -- Thomas Jefferson
We live in a society exquisitely dependent on science and technology, in which hardly anyone knows anything about science and technology. - Carl Sagan
I believe that every right implies a responsibility, every opportunity an obligation; every possession, a duty. - John D. Rockefeller, Jr.
Ok gus here is how Scilia's decision is being used to ban assult weapons
May 19 2009, 8:25 PM
----do read it all gus, don't wait for the nra to pour a helping of mush into your skull, you must have had some brains once upon a time, perhaps before the drugs-----Here I'll excerpt for you so your rusty reading skills don't miss a clear definition of assault weapon: Even the ATF has described assault weapons as "large
capacity, semi-automatic firearms designed for rapid fire, combat use.. .Most are patterned after
machine guns used by military forces.-----(So not even semi auto are protected by Heller gus. I keep telling you the righwing court fucked you and the rest of the American on the second amendment--------
This is the html version of the filehttp://transportation.house.gov/Media/file/Economic%20Development/20090403/Nickles%20Testimony.pdf.
Google automatically generates html versions of documents as we crawl the web.
Page 1
Government of the District of Columbia
Testimony of
Peter Nickles
Attorney General
Disaster Capacity in the National Capital Region:
Experiences, Capabilities, and Weaknesses
United States House of Representatives
Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure
Subcommittee on Economic Development, Public Buildings, and
Emergency Management
The Honorable Eleanor Holmes Norton, Chairwoman
April 3,2009
U.S. House of Representatives
Washington, DC 20515
Page 2
Chairwoman Norton, members of the Committee, staff, and guests: my name is Peter
Nickles, and I am the Attorney General of the District of Columbia. Thank you for the
opportunity to present this statement on the impact on homeland security in the nation's capital
of the amendment to the D.Ç. House Voting Rights Act (S. 160) proposed by Senator John
Ensign (R-NV) (the "Ensign Amendment").
I would like to first take a moment to update you about the additional legislative action
taken by the District of Columbia since the US Supreme Court issued its decision in District of
Columbia v. Heller. As previously stated to the Committee, the District government - both the
Executive and the Legislative branches - fully respects the Supreme Court's decision. Most
recently, the Council of the District of Columbia enacted and the Mayor signed into law
permanent legislation continuing the District's compliance with the Heller decision. Together
these laws affirm District residents' right to register handguns and possess them for self defense
within the home.
All of the District's legislation has been carefully crafted to comply with the Court's
decision in Heller. Justice Scalia underscored the District's authority to regulate firearms under
the Second Amendment when he stated:
Although we do not undertake an exhaustive historical analysis today of the full
scope of the Second Amendment, nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast
doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and
the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places
such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and
qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.
District of Columbia v. Heller, 128 S. Ct. 2783,2817 (U.S. 2008). Consistent with Justice
Scalia's opinion, the District, like many states, has determined that assault weapons and certain
unsafe firearms, are not eligible to be registered and possessed.
Some of the misinformation about the District gun laws needs to be corrected. Shotguns,
rifles, and handguns - including many semi-automatic models - can all be registered in the
District. Indeed, rifles and shotguns (including many semi-automatic versions) were never
prohibited at all, and residents have been able to register many semi-automatic handguns since
September 16,2008. Since the Heller decision alone, more than 400 handguns and 160 long
guns have been registered. Although there is currently only one licensed firearms dealer in the
District, the free market will likely address that. Besides getting a firearms dealer license from
Page 3
the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms & Explosives (ATF) and from the District, it is no
more difficult to open a dealership than a restaurant. And the District is certainly not alone in
requiring a firearms dealer's license17 states do so as well.
However, the Ensign Amendment goes far beyond mere compliance with Heller. Most
importantly, the Ensign Amendment would repeal the District's ban on assault weapons. The
city's ban is similar to the federal ban in place until 2004. This ban was not unconstitutional; the
federal law had a sunset provision after 10 years, at which time it was allowed to expire, and
authority reverted to the states. In all, 10 states ban or regulate assault weapons, with five states
having provisions similar to that of DC. Even the ATF has described assault weapons as "large
capacity, semi-automatic firearms designed for rapid fire, combat use.. .Most are patterned after
machine guns used by military forces."1 Certainly the District's ban of these weapons is a
reasonable exercise of its regulatory authority.
Critics of the District's ban will argue that criminals can get assault weapons anyway.
The use of assault weapons by criminals is a growing problem in cities across the country, as we
saw most recently in the tragic incident in Oakland in which two law enforcement officers were
killed by a parolee with an assault rifle. Fortunately, however, assault weapons do not currently
have a strong presence in DC. Last year, of the more than 2,500 illegal firearms recovered by
police, only 1 percent were assault weapons. Certainly a determined criminal could get an
assault weapon. And if our assault weapons ban were merely repealed, anyone eligible to
purchase a firearm under federal law would be able to.
But the Ensign Amendment goes beyond that by taking the unprecedented step of
allowing District residents to purchase firearms in Maryland and Virginia, which would have a
significant impact on the ability of the entire region to regulate firearmsincluding assault
weapons. Nowhere in the nation are residents allowed to purchase a firearm in another state
without going through a federally licensed dealer in their own state. As Martin O'Malley,
Governor of Maryland, has warned Congress, his state would not be able to properly regulate
firearms purchased by District residents. Maryland does not have the necessary expertise to
interpret District laws, much less the many possible dispositions under the city's criminal justice
system. The result would be that even people who are prohibited under federal law from
' ATF, Assault Weapons Profile, supra note 7, at 19
Page 4
purchasing a firearm may be able to take advantage of those gaps and buy a weaponagain,
including an assault weaponin Maryland or Virginia.
Last September, Cathy Lanier, Chief of Police of the Metropolitan Police Department of
the District of Columbia, testified before the Committee on Oversight & Government Reform
about the special concerns in protecting the District of Columbia. The terrorist attacks of
September 11th, 2001, demonstrated something that we have known for some time: government
facilities, dignitaries, and public servants are prime targets for terrorists, both foreign and
domestic. Protecting government officials and infrastructure is a challenge for every city in the
United States. But in Washington, DC, the likelihood of attack is higher, and the challenges to
protecting the city are greater. As a result, the District is the last place where US residents across
the country would want to allow assault weapons.
The District's high concentration of iconic structuressuch as the national monuments,
the White House, and, of course, the Capitolmake it a highly attractive target. The high-profile
human targetsfrom the Nation's top elected leaders to the more than 400 foreign dignitaries
that make official visits to DC each yearare also an obvious and attractive target. Moreover,
it is not just well-coordinated terrorist attacks we need to secure the city against. We must also
consider the unsophisticated "lone wolf terrorist, angry at the US Government for whatever
reason.
The second key vulnerability is due to the sheer volume of secure motorcades traveling in
Washington on any given day. Given the daily movements around the city of the President, Vice
President, and their families, and the fact that almost 3,000 foreign dignitaries spend time in our
city each yearthe routes for their movements cannot be shut down, as they are in other cities.
As you know from your own districts, when the President and Vice President travel outside of
Washington, roads are cleared of all traffic, parked cars, and such, and spectators are often kept
behind barricades. We don't do this in DC because shutting down the routes for every
motorcade would make it virtually impossible to navigate much of the city on a continuous basis,
and we don't want the Nation's capital to take on the character of an armed fortress. This
freedom, however, comes with the cost of higher vulnerabilityboth for the officials and
dignitaries, and the general population. In attempted and successful assassinations around the
world, the first step in attacking a motorcade is frequently to take out the security detail with
Page 5
semi-automatic and automatic firearms. This forces the motorcade to stop, at which point the
terrorist can use explosives to attack the armored vehicles carrying the targeted individual.
We all have an immediate concern for any life threatened or lost in a terrorist event. But
as my colleague, Chief Lanier, noted, here in the Nation's Capital, we must also recognize that
any terrorist incident, no matter how small, would garner world-wide attention and could have
significant international implications. The broader repercussions of an incident in the city should
also be of grave concern to everyone in this room.
Page 6
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." -- Thomas Jefferson
We live in a society exquisitely dependent on science and technology, in which hardly anyone knows anything about science and technology. - Carl Sagan
I believe that every right implies a responsibility, every opportunity an obligation; every possession, a duty. - John D. Rockefeller, Jr.
Current Topic - Damn those socialist scandivhoovians its horrible over there
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