AlterNet
"I Hate Arabs More Than Anybody": Desperate Army Recruits Neo-Nazis
By Matt Kennard, Investigative Fund at The Nation Institute
Posted on June 17, 2009, Printed on June 17, 2009
http://www.alternet.org/story/140686/
On a muggy Florida evening in 2008, I meet Iraq War veteran Forrest Fogarty in the Winghouse, a little bar-restaurant on the outskirts of Tampa, his favorite hangout. He told me on the phone I would recognize him by his skinhead. Sure enough, when I spot a white guy at a table by the door with a shaved head, white tank top and bulging muscles, I know it can only be him.
Over a plate of chicken wings, he tells me about his path into the white-power movement. "I was 14 when I decided I wanted to be a Nazi," he says. At his first high school, near Los Angeles, he was bullied by black and Latino kids. That's when he first heard Skrewdriver, a band he calls "the godfather of the white power movement." "I became obsessed," he says. He had an image from one of Skrewdriver's album covers -- a Viking carrying a staff, an icon among white nationalists -- tattooed on his left forearm. Soon after he had a Celtic cross, an Irish symbol appropriated by neo-Nazis, emblazoned on his stomach.
At 15, Fogarty moved with his dad to Tampa, where he started picking fights with groups of black kids at his new high school. "On the first day, this bunch of niggers, they thought I was a racist, so they asked, 'Are you in the KKK?'" he tells me. "I said, 'Yeah,' and it was on." Soon enough, he was expelled.
For the next six years, Fogarty flitted from landscaping job to construction job, neither of which he'd ever wanted to do. "I was just drinking and fighting," he says. He started his own Nazi rock group, Attack, and made friends in the National Alliance, at the time the biggest neo-Nazi group in the country. It has called for a "a long-term eugenics program involving at least the entire populations of Europe and America."
But the military ran in Fogarty's family. His grandfather had served during World War II, Korea and Vietnam, and his dad had been a Marine in Vietnam. At 22, Fogarty resolved to follow in their footsteps. "I wanted to serve my country," he says.
Army regulations prohibit soldiers from participating in racist groups, and recruiters are instructed to keep an eye out for suspicious tattoos. Before signing on the dotted line, enlistees are required to explain any tattoos. At a Tampa recruitment office, though, Fogarty sailed right through the signup process. "They just told me to write an explanation of each tattoo, and I made up some stuff, and that was that," he says. Soon he was posted to Fort Stewart in Georgia, where he became part of the 3rd Infantry Division.
Fogarty's ex-girlfriend, intent on destroying his new military career, sent a dossier of photographs to Fort Stewart. The photos showed Fogarty attending white supremacist rallies and performing with his band, Attack. "They hauled me before some sort of committee and showed me the pictures," Fogarty says. "I just denied them and said my girlfriend was a spiteful bitch." He adds: "They knew what I was about. But they let it go because I'm a great soldier."
In 2003, Fogarty was sent to Iraq. For two years he served in the military police, escorting officers, including generals, around the hostile country. He says he was granted top-secret clearance and access to battle plans. Fogarty speaks with regret that he "never had any kill counts." But he says his time in Iraq increased his racist resolve.
"I hate Arabs more than anybody, for the simple fact I've served over there and seen how they live," he tells me. "They're just a backward people. Them and the Jews are just disgusting people as far as I'm concerned. Their customs, everything to do with the Middle East, is just repugnant to me."
Because of his tattoos and his racist comments, most of his buddies and his commanding officers were aware of his Nazism. "They all knew in my unit," he says. "They would always kid around and say, 'Hey, you're that skinhead!'" But no one sounded an alarm to higher-ups. "I would volunteer for all the hardest missions, and they were like, 'Let Fogarty go.' They didn't want to get rid of me."
Fogarty left the Army in 2005 with an honorable discharge. He says he was asked to reenlist. He declined. He was sick of the system.
Since the launch of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, the U.S. military has struggled to recruit and reenlist troops. As the conflicts have dragged on, the military has loosened regulations, issuing "moral waivers" in many cases, allowing even those with criminal records to join up. Veterans suffering post-traumatic stress disorder have been ordered back to the Middle East for second and third tours of duty.
The lax regulations have also opened the military's doors to neo-Nazis, white supremacists and gang members -- with drastic consequences. Some neo-Nazis have been charged with crimes inside the military, and others have been linked to recruitment efforts for the white right. A recent Department of Homeland Security report, "Rightwing Extremism: Current Economic and Political Climate Fueling Resurgence in Radicalization and Recruitment," stated: "The willingness of a small percentage of military personnel to join extremist groups during the 1990s because they were disgruntled, disillusioned, or suffering from the psychological effects of war is being replicated today." Many white supremacists join the Army to secure training for, as they see it, a future domestic race war. Others claim to be shooting Iraqis not to pursue the military's strategic goals but because killing "hajjis" is their duty as white militants.
Soldiers' associations with extremist groups, and their racist actions, contravene a host of military statutes instituted in the past three decades. But during the "war on terror," U.S. armed forces have turned a blind eye on their own regulations. A 2005 Department of Defense report states, "Effectively, the military has a 'don't ask, don't tell' policy pertaining to extremism. If individuals can perform satisfactorily, without making their extremist opinions overt they are likely to be able to complete their contracts."
Carter F. Smith is a former military investigator who worked with the U.S. Army Criminal Investigation Command from 2004 to 2006, when he helped to root out gang violence in troops. "When you need more soldiers, you lower the standards, whether you say so or not," he says. "The increase in gangs and extremists is an indicator of this." Military investigators may be concerned about white supremacists, he says. "But they have a war to fight, and they don't have incentive to slow down."
Tom Metzger is the former grand wizard of the Ku Klux Klan and current leader of the White Aryan Resistance. He tells me the military has never been more tolerant of racial extremists. "Now they are letting everybody in," he says.
The presence of white supremacists in the military first triggered concern in 1976. At Camp Pendleton in California, a group of black Marines attacked white Marines they mistakenly believed to be in the KKK. The resulting investigation uncovered a KKK chapter at the base and led to the jailing or transfer of 16 Klansmen. Reports of Klan activity among soldiers and Marines surfaced again in the 1980s, spurring President Reagan's Defense Secretary, Caspar Weinberger, to condemn military participation in white supremacist organizations.
Then, in 1995, a black couple was murdered by two neo-Nazi paratroopers around Fort Bragg in North Carolina. The murder investigation turned up evidence that 22 soldiers at Fort Bragg were known to be extremists. That year, language was added to a Department of Defense directive, explicitly prohibiting participation in "organizations that espouse supremacist causes" or "advocate the use of force or violence."
Today a complete ban on membership in racist organizations appears to have been lifted -- though the proliferation of white supremacists in the military is difficult to gauge. The military does not track them as a discrete category, coupling them with gang members. But one indication of the scope comes from the FBI.
Following an investigation of white supremacist groups, a 2008 FBI report declared: "Military experience -- ranging from failure at basic training to success in special operations forces -- is found throughout the white supremacist extremist movement." In white supremacist incidents from 2001 to 2008, the FBI identified 203 veterans. Most of them were associated with the National Alliance and the National Socialist Movement, which promote anti-Semitism and the overthrow of the U.S. government, and assorted skinhead groups.
Because the FBI focused only on reported cases, its numbers don't include the many extremist soldiers who have managed to stay off the radar. But its report does pinpoint why the white supremacist movements seek to recruit veterans -- they "may exploit their accesses to restricted areas and intelligence or apply specialized training in weapons, tactics, and organizational skills to benefit the extremist movement."
In fact, since the movement's inception, its leaders have encouraged members to enlist in the U.S. military as a way to receive state-of-the-art combat training, courtesy of the U.S. taxpayer, in preparation for a domestic race war. The concept of a race war is central to extremist groups, whose adherents imagine an eruption of violence that pits races against each other and the government.
That goal comes up often in the chatter on white supremacist Web sites. On the neo-Nazi Web site Blood and Honour, a user called 88Soldier88, wrote in 2008 that he is an active duty soldier working in a detainee holding area in Iraq. He complained about "how 'nice' we have to treat these fucking people better than our own troops." Then he added, "Hopefully the training will prepare me for what I hope is to come." Another poster, AMERICANARYAN.88Soldier88, wrote, "I have the training I need and will pass it on to others when I get out."
On NewSaxon.org, a social networking group for neo-Nazis, a group called White Military Men hosts numerous contributors. It was begun by "FightingforWhites," who identified himself at one point as Lance Cpl. Burton of the 2nd Battalion Fox Company, but then removed the information. The group calls for "All men with military experience, retired or active/reserve" to "join this group to see how many men have experience to build an army. We want to win a war, we need soldiers." FightingforWhites -- whose tagline is "White Supremacy will prevail! US Military leading the way!" -- goes on to write, "I am with an infantry battalion in the Marine Corps, I have had the pleasure of killing four enemies that tried to kill me. I have the best training to kill people." On his wall, a friend wrote: "THANKS BROTHER!!!! kill a couple towel heads for me ok!"
Such attitudes come straight from the movement's leaders. "We do encourage them to sign up for the military," says Charles Wilson, spokesman for the National Socialist Movement. "We can use the training to secure the resistance to our government." Billy Roper, of White Revolution, says skinheads join the military for the usual reasons, such as access to higher education, but also "to secure the future for white children." "America began in bloody revolution," he reminds me, "and it might end that way."
When it comes to screening out racists at recruitment centers, military regulations appear to have collapsed. "We don't exclude people from the army based on their thoughts," says S. Douglas Smith, an Army public affairs officer. "We exclude based on behavior." He says an "offensive" or "extremist" tattoo "might be a reason for them not to be in the military." Or it might not. "We try to educate recruiters on extremist tattoos," he says, but "the tattoo is a relatively subjective decision" and shouldn't in itself bar enlistment.
What about something as obvious as a swastika? "A swastika would trigger questions," Smith says. "But again, if the gentlemen said, 'I like the way the swastika looked,' and had clean criminal record, it's possible we would allow that person in." "There are First Amendment rights," he adds.
In the spring, I telephoned at random five Army recruitment centers across the country. I said I was interested in joining up and mentioned that I had a pair of "SS bolts" tattooed on my arm. A 2000 military brochure stated that SS bolts were a tattoo image that should raise suspicions. But none of the recruiters reacted negatively, and when pressed directly about the tattoo, not one said it would be an outright problem. A recruiter in Houston was typical; he said he'd never heard of SS bolts and just encouraged me to come on in.
It's in the interest of recruiters to interpret recruiting standards loosely. If they fail to meet targets, based on the number of soldiers they enlist, they may have to attend a punitive counseling session, and it could hurt any chance for promotion. When, in 2005, the Army relaxed regulations on non-extremist tattoos, such as body art covering the hands, neck and face, this cut recruiters even more slack.
Even the education of recruiters about how to identify extremists seems to have fallen by the wayside. The 2005 Department of Defense report concluded that recruiting personnel "were not aware of having received systematic training on recognizing and responding to possible terrorists" -- a designation that includes white supremacists -- "who try to enlist." Participation on white supremacist Web sites would be an easy way to screen out extremist recruits, but the report found that the military had not clarified which Web forums were gathering places for extremists.
Once white supremacists are in the military, it is easy to stay there. An Army Command Policy manual devotes more than 100 pages to rooting them out. But no officer appears to be reading it.
Hunter Glass was a paratrooper in the 1980s and became a gang cop in 1999 in Fayetteville, North Carolina, near Fort Bragg. "In the early 1990s, the military was hard on them. They could pick and choose," he recalls. "They were looking for swastikas. They were looking for anything." But the regulations on racist extremists got jettisoned with the war on terror.
Glass says white supremacists now enjoy an open culture of impunity in the armed forces. "We're seeing guys with tattoos all the time," he says. "As far as hunting them down, I don't see it. I'm seeing the opposite, where if a white supremacist has committed a crime, the military stance will be, 'He didn't commit a race-related crime.'"
In fact, a 2006 report by the Army's Criminal Investigation Command shows that military brass consistently ignored evidence of extremism. One case, at Fort Hood, reveals that a soldier was making Internet postings on the white supremacist site Stormfront.org. But the investigator was unable to locate the soldier in question. In a brief summary of the case, an investigator writes that due to "poor documentation," "attempts to locate with minimal information met with negative results." "I'm not doing my job here," the investigator notes. "Needs to get fixed."
In another case, investigators found that a Fort Hood soldier belonged to the neo-Nazi group Hammerskins and was "closely associated with" the Celtic Knights of Austin, Texas, another extremist organization, a situation bad enough to merit a joint investigation by the FBI and the Army's Criminal Investigation Command. The Army summary states that there was "probable cause" to believe the soldier had participated in at least one white extremist meeting and had "provided a military technical manual to the leader of a white extremist group in order to assist in the planning and execution of future attacks on various targets."
Our of four preliminary probes into white supremacists, the Criminal Investigation Command carried through on only this one. The probe revealed that "a larger single attack was planned for the San Antonio, TX after a considerable amount of media attention was given to illegal immigrants. The attack was not completed due to the inability of the organization to obtain explosives." Despite these threats, the subject was interviewed only once, in 2006, and the investigation was terminated the following year.
White supremacists may be doing more than avoiding expulsion. They may be using their military status to help build the white right. The FBI found that two Army privates in the 82nd Airborne Division at Fort Bragg had attempted in 2007 to sell stolen property from the military -- including ballistic vests, a combat helmet and pain medications such as morphine -- to an undercover FBI agent they believed was involved with the white supremacist movement. (They were convicted and sentenced to six years.) It found multiple examples of white supremacist recruitment among active military, including a period in 2003 when six active duty soldiers at Fort Riley, members of the Aryan Nation, were recruiting their Army colleagues and even serving as the Aryan Nation's point of contact for the state of Kansas.
One white supremacist soldier, James Douglas Ross, a military intelligence officer stationed at Fort Bragg, was given a bad conduct discharge from the Army when he was caught trying to mail a submachine gun from Iraq to his father's home in Spokane, Wash. Military police found a cache of white supremacist paraphernalia and several weapons hidden behind ceiling tiles in Ross' military quarters. After his discharge, a Spokane County deputy sheriff saw Ross passing out fliers for the neo-Nazi National Alliance.
Rooting out extremists is difficult because racism pervades the military, according to soldiers. They say troops throughout the Middle East use derogatory terms like "hajji" or "sand nigger" to define Arab insurgents and often the Arab population itself.
"Racism was rampant," recalls vet Michael Prysner, who served in Iraq in 2003 and 2004 as part of the 173rd Airborne Brigade. "All of command, everywhere, it was completely ingrained in the consciousness of every soldier. I've heard top generals refer to the Iraq people as 'hajjis.' The anti-Arab racism came from the brass. It came from the top. And everything was justified because they weren't considered people."
Another vet, Michael Totten, who served in Iraq with the 101st Airborne in 2003 and 2004, says, "It wouldn't stand out if you said 'sand niggers,' even if you aren't a neo-Nazi." Totten says his perspective has changed in the intervening years, but "at the time, I used the words 'sand nigger.' I didn't consider 'hajji' to be derogatory."
Geoffrey Millard, an organizer for Iraq Veterans Against the War, served in Iraq for 13 months, beginning in 2004, as part of the 42nd Infantry Division. He recalls Gen. George Casey, who served as the commander in Iraq from 2004 to 2007, addressing a briefing he attended in the summer of 2005 at Forward Operating Base, outside Tikrit. "As he walked past, he was talking about some incident that had just happened, and he was talking about how 'these stupid fucking hajjis couldn't figure shit out.' And I'm just like, Are you kidding me? This is Gen. Casey, the highest-ranking guy in Iraq, referring to the Iraqi people as 'fucking hajjis.'" (A spokesperson for Casey, now the Army Chief of Staff, said the general "did not make this statement.")
"The military is attractive to white supremacists," Millard says, "because the war itself is racist."
The U.S. Senate Committee on the Armed Forces has long been considered one of Congress' most powerful groups. It governs legislation affecting the Pentagon, defense budget, military strategies and operations. Today it is led by the influential Sens. Carl Levin and John McCain. An investigation by the committee into how white supremacists permeate the military in plain violation of U.S. law could result in substantive changes. I contacted the committee but staffers would not agree to be interviewed. Instead, a spokesperson responded that white supremacy in the military has never arisen as a concern. In an e-mail, the spokesperson said, "The Committee doesn't have any information that would indicate this is a particular problem."
Potese, gus and dick head their idol all show the rightwing lack of personal responsibility. They expect some one else and some one else's kids to put their lives on the line while these gravy training cowards stay home, let some one else protect them and advance their countries national interests. All the while bitching about taxes, veteran's benefits and pay. Fuck them they don't deserve to be citizens.
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." -- Thomas Jefferson
We live in a society exquisitely dependent on science and technology, in which hardly anyone knows anything about science and technology. - Carl Sagan
I believe that every right implies a responsibility, every opportunity an obligation; every possession, a duty. - John D. Rockefeller, Jr.
Potese, gus and dick head their idol all show the rightwing lack of personal responsibility. They expect some one else and some one else's kids to put their lives on the line while these gravy training cowards stay home, let some one else protect them and advance their countries national interests. All the while bitching about taxes, veteran's benefits and pay. Fuck them they don't deserve to be citizens.
Precisely general, which is exactly the sort of abuses that a draft leads to. Try and keep your thoughts collected to at least resemble some shred of continuity, even if there is none.
I think the draft would be a good thing. Give these youngsters something to do and a chance to make something of themselves and improve the chances they become responsible citizens and not meth/drug addicts. (I know it's not a 100% success rate but it is a far greater possibility than having them "bored" and too much idle time on their hands.) BTW I also have a grandson who would be draft material and I would expect no deferment for him as well (and he is not a druggie either).
gus, you remain backward. The draft makes everyone liable to service. If some game the system like the fat lying bastard Limbaugh, the answer is fix the system not to take the lazy idiot's way out and abandon it so that only the violent racists and poor serve.
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." -- Thomas Jefferson
We live in a society exquisitely dependent on science and technology, in which hardly anyone knows anything about science and technology. - Carl Sagan
I believe that every right implies a responsibility, every opportunity an obligation; every possession, a duty. - John D. Rockefeller, Jr.
gus, you remain backward. The draft makes everyone liable to service. If some game the system like the fat lying bastard Limbaugh, the answer is fix the system not to take the lazy idiot's way out and abandon it so that only the violent racists and poor serve.
The "system" cannot be fixed, since no such fairness in compulsory govt. action exists in the first place, or can. God forbid, general, that you could actually envision a citizen who is motivated by his own good sense of duty enough to *volunteer* to serve. In your world, everything that isn't illegal is compulsory.
The "system" cannot be fixed, since no such fairness in compulsory govt. action exists in the first place, or can. God forbid, general, that you could actually envision a citizen who is motivated by his own good sense of duty enough to *volunteer* to serve. In your world, everything that isn't illegal is compulsory.
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What exactly do you think this country was founded on to begin with?
I volunteered to serve. Did you?
I keep suggesting that you cannot legitimately keep extolling the virtues that you have not lived up to.
gus like most rightwingers is a parasite, he wants the benefits of living in an Advanced Democracy but does not want to pay any costs, personal or financial.
The funniest part of the whole thing is this: If the people who program him get their way they will enslave him and tell him he is much freer than if he was still living in a Free Country.
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." -- Thomas Jefferson
We live in a society exquisitely dependent on science and technology, in which hardly anyone knows anything about science and technology. - Carl Sagan
I believe that every right implies a responsibility, every opportunity an obligation; every possession, a duty. - John D. Rockefeller, Jr.
The "system" cannot be fixed, since no such fairness in compulsory govt. action exists in the first place, or can. God forbid, general, that you could actually envision a citizen who is motivated by his own good sense of duty enough to *volunteer* to serve. In your world, everything that isn't illegal is compulsory.
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What exactly do you think this country was founded on to begin with?
That is a question you should direct to the general.
I volunteered to serve. Did you?
Not in the military, no, if that is your short-sighted, singlular concept of service.
I keep suggesting that you cannot legitimately keep extolling the virtues that you have not lived up to.
Even if it were true, your suggestion is utter nonsense. Are you saying there is no such thing as redemption? Are you saying that there is no such thing as restitution, or growth, or *learning*? Would you make this arguement in a debate on the death penalty?
What exactly do you think this country was founded on to begin with?
That is a question you should direct to the general.
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No, I shouldn't. I'm directing it to you. You present yourself as the epitome of a patriot. Therefore, what, in your view was this country founded upon? Quit evading the question.
Not in the military, no, if that is your short-sighted, singlular concept of service.
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Well, what other ways were there to serve? Specify. You are great on generic putdowns, but, you rarely speak to your own virtues. Here's your chance. Speak up.
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I keep suggesting that you cannot legitimately keep extolling the virtues that you have not lived up to.
Even if it were true, your suggestion is utter nonsense. Are you saying there is no such thing as redemption? Are you saying that there is no such thing as restitution, or growth, or *learning*? Would you make this arguement in a debate on the death penalty?
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Of course there is "redemption" ... wearing a US Flag lapel pin ain't enough.
Sorry, you lose. Or, more accurately, you are a loser.
What exactly do you think this country was founded on to begin with?
That is a question you should direct to the general.
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No, I shouldn't. I'm directing it to you. You present yourself as the epitome of a patriot. Therefore, what, in your view was this country founded upon? Quit evading the question.
No I don't. (Here's another incorrect assumption for the other thread). The country was founded on the concept of individual freedom, and self-governance.
Not in the military, no, if that is your short-sighted, singlular concept of service.
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Well, what other ways were there to serve? Specify. You are great on generic putdowns, but, you rarely speak to your own virtues. Here's your chance. Speak up.
There is a reason I "rarely speak to my own virtues". I consider humility to be one... But there are boundless ways to serve, why don't you google it? One is "civil service", a term that literally defines itself.
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I keep suggesting that you cannot legitimately keep extolling the virtues that you have not lived up to.
Even if it were true, your suggestion is utter nonsense. Are you saying there is no such thing as redemption? Are you saying that there is no such thing as restitution, or growth, or *learning*? Would you make this arguement in a debate on the death penalty?
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Of course there is "redemption" ... wearing a US Flag lapel pin ain't enough.
I never said it was. Is this another incorrect assumption? Now answer the rest of the questions.
Sorry, you lose. Or, more accurately, you are a loser.
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"We are all equal, but we definitely are not the same"
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about the only rightwinger that thinks this country is worth two years of their precious time is Colin Powell and they kicked dirt in his face, made him a laughing stock and are in the process of drumming him out of the Republican party. So if the leading adherents of a political philosophy don't think the country they want to lead was worth serving, then what the fuck good is that out look on life? No gus, cop does not count that was just you trying to grow the balls you thought you lost when you chickened out of Viet Nam.
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." -- Thomas Jefferson
We live in a society exquisitely dependent on science and technology, in which hardly anyone knows anything about science and technology. - Carl Sagan
I believe that every right implies a responsibility, every opportunity an obligation; every possession, a duty. - John D. Rockefeller, Jr.
about the only rightwinger that thinks this country is worth two years of their precious time is Colin Powell and they kicked dirt in his face, made him a laughing stock and are in the process of drumming him out of the Republican party. So if the leading adherents of a political philosophy don't think the country they want to lead was worth serving, then what the fuck good is that out look on life?
Another opportunity for one of life's little reality supositories, general. Why don't you do a little research, and discover for yourself which way the *all volunteer* military has been voting for the last decade or so?
No gus, cop does not count that was just you trying to grow the balls you thought you lost when you chickened out of Viet Nam.
I don't remember asking for a count, general. Presumptuous don't you think? Imagine that... How many scars do you carry around as souveniers of *your* "service"? REMF, maybe?
sure gus, recruit from the underclasses as in the article I posted, do the surface thinking, kneejerk reacting indoctrination so necessary in basic troops, and keep it a segregated force with out the benefit of serving with all walks of life and social classes, don't have any draftees, there because their number came up, who can counterbalance the various gung ho, but not actually inclusive American citizens. We are building the sort of force that can be used to take over a country and the hate media mouths paid to pull rightwing strings do not serve in that force, they are just "troops" to be lightly thrown away. You, drafted nursing a grudge would have been better for our country than 5 gung ho racists.
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." -- Thomas Jefferson
We live in a society exquisitely dependent on science and technology, in which hardly anyone knows anything about science and technology. - Carl Sagan
I believe that every right implies a responsibility, every opportunity an obligation; every possession, a duty. - John D. Rockefeller, Jr.
sure gus, recruit from the underclasses as in the article I posted, do the surface thinking, kneejerk reacting indoctrination so necessary in basic troops, and keep it a segregated force with out the benefit of serving with all walks of life and social classes, don't have any draftees, there because their number came up, who can counterbalance the various gung ho, but not actually inclusive American citizens. We are building the sort of force that can be used to take over a country and the hate media mouths paid to pull rightwing strings do not serve in that force, they are just "troops" to be lightly thrown away. You, drafted nursing a grudge would have been better for our country than 5 gung ho racists.
What exactly do you think this country was founded on to begin with?
That is a question you should direct to the general.
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No, I shouldn't. I'm directing it to you. You present yourself as the epitome of a patriot. Therefore, what, in your view was this country founded upon? Quit evading the question.
No I don't. (Here's another incorrect assumption for the other thread).
I agree, I see no dissonance about the question of a Representative Republic. You seem to have a problem with those who disagree with you. I embrace those who seek individual freedom and self-governance as well.
Not in the military, no, if that is your short-sighted, singlular concept of service.
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No, for the most part, that is not MY concept of service, it is the "concept of service" drummed into the national consciousness by [mostly] chickenhawks [like yourself] who didn't serve at all. You cannot evade that original truth.
Well, what other ways were there to serve? Specify. You are great on generic putdowns, but, you rarely speak to your own virtues. Here's your chance. Speak up.
There is a reason I "rarely speak to my own virtues". I consider humility to be one
... But there are boundless ways to serve, why don't you google it? One is "civil service", a term that literally defines itself.
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ah, of course... you wish to take the backdoor approach. Tell me this: Did you have a choice to become a cop? Could you have ever walked away and not had the indictment of a "Bad Conduct Discharge" follow you around for a lifetime? Of course you didn't.
I keep suggesting that you cannot legitimately keep extolling the virtues that you have not lived up to.
Even if it were true, your suggestion is utter nonsense. Are you saying there is no such thing as redemption? Are you saying that there is no such thing as restitution, or growth, or *learning*? Would you make this arguement in a debate on the death penalty?
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What does the DP have to do with any of this? You are flailing around looking for a new hook to denigrate that which you both don't agree with nor understand. Sure, redemption is possible. Quite frankly, you have not been redeemed in any sense of the word.
The best choice is the all volunteer service...the ones that want to serve their country join those that don't want to serve their country do not...easy enough isn't it? The draft of today would be a joke anyway...I'm sure the ACLU would have to OK boot camp and no one could be talked to in a loud voice or made to do any type of physical training...there would have to be openly gay units as well as all races would have to have their own units and of course the women would have to have special gigs but without combat but would demand the same money as those in combat...and on and on and on! Leave it alone!
The language of priorities is the religion of Socialism.....Aneurin Bevan
In my opinion, the Vietnam Era was pretty darn confusing for everyone in the Unitied States. It was a crazy time. A down-home, son of a military officer (retired), patriot like me found a lot to dislike about the war. But, on the other hand, my brother dropped out of college and joined the Marines.
A lot of good people protested the war, a lot of good people went to fight.
If you seriously protested the war or if you were drafted or joined the military during that time, I can't deny your patriotism either way. If you were assigned to Vietnam or to a Flying Tiger base in Cold Harbor, Alaska nobody can deny your patriotism either way.
So, in that context, Gus did more than most of our generation by joining law enforcement.
America has long ago forgiven all of her sons for the war at home and the war in Vietnam.
So cut out this "you didn't serve" crap, Jim. You're starting to sound like a left-wing swift boater.
*****
You learn to know a pilot in a storm.
-Seneca
So cut out this "you didn't serve" crap, Jim. You're starting to sound like a left-wing swift boater.
They've been banging this drum for years. When it's all you have, it's all you have. I find it a handy means of identifying who to take seriously, or not. After all, janie was one of the first...
I joined 9 july 1964, I was 17. When I came home at Christmas the draft board lady gave me some crap about where had I been a few weeks earlier when I turned 18? You should have seen her face change when I told her. But that is neither here nor there. Absent a draft the notion that citizenship carries obligations as well as privileges is pretty much dead and the notion that a citizen can gravy train off the country permeates both left and right.
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." -- Thomas Jefferson
We live in a society exquisitely dependent on science and technology, in which hardly anyone knows anything about science and technology. - Carl Sagan
I believe that every right implies a responsibility, every opportunity an obligation; every possession, a duty. - John D. Rockefeller, Jr.
Absent a draft the notion that citizenship carries obligations as well as privileges is pretty much dead and the notion that a citizen can gravy train off the country permeates both left and right.
Absent, of course, the small insignificant detail of the caliber of our current all-volunteer military. The things you can deny/ignore in pursuit of your black little world-view could sometimes be astonishing, *if* they weren't so in character.
The bottom line is that without the draft the country has a very difficult if not impossible task of trying to sustain continued military obligations with repeated deployments.
The bottom line is that without the draft the country has a very difficult if not impossible task of trying to sustain continued military obligations with repeated deployments.
Nonsense. Moonbats warning of Bush's coming draft were saying that within days of the invasion of Iraq. Both wars are how old now?
And apparently in both campaigns the troop strength levels were inadequate.
No, they are inadequate only in the minds of moonbats who are so addlepated that they can't decide whether to "bring them home", or send more! Inadequate would mean that we were being defeated militarily, and/or unable to sustain our presence in the region on our terms. Neither is the case, for a growing number of years now. Next?
And of course the need for the surge proves nothing or the fact that we are just now being able to send additonal troops to Afghanistan as we begin to draw down the number in Iraq.
Repeated deployments, suicides at record levels, combat fatigue issues that boggle the mind, just to name troop problems.
The Pentagon has admitted the scheduling problems with trying to get troops enough time off between tours to allow them some relief.
If we aren't going to have a draft then we really are going to have to look seriously at figuring out how to have a larger number of combat troops to be able to handle the stress.
Interesting....how do you prepare the troops for handling the constant stress of killing or be killed and seeing their buddies die and knowing the more often they go the odds increase for them? Some of them volunteer for extra tours but when you become this "killing machine" it certainly can't be easy for them to undo that mode when they do come back to a civilian way of life. It devastates the soldier, it destroys families and many of them will never recover from this as we saw in the Viet Nam war veterans. I'm sure other war veterans had PTSD as well....I believe that the atrocities of the Viet Cong and the enormous number of youth in their teens pulled in by the draft was a major cause in addition to what happened when they came home to an unwelcoming country.
I do support the draft for all when we enter into war..........we have family men and women fighting now and there is no acceptable out because one has better things to do. We need to give our soldiers a break from tour after tour after tour after tour.
I do support the draft for all when we enter into war..........we have family men and women fighting now and there is no acceptable out because one has better things to do. We need to give our soldiers a break from tour after tour after tour after tour.
While I have read data on what are considered extended tours, compared to the accepted norm, as far as I know, *nobody* is *forced* to endure multiple tours of war theatre/combat duty. I could be wrong. This is an *all volunteer* military! That isn't a particularly difficult thing to define! These soldiers, a significant number of them, are *volunteering* to take second, third, and more tours to Iraq, and Afghanistan. People *that* committed to what they do may have become a quaint curiosity in these modern self-centered times, but they are real, and they stand and speak for themselves. Get used to it.
Yes those in the military are not drafted but enlist and reenlist.
I never said anyone was being forced although there have been times when people were entended beyond their enlistment period.
What I basically said and still say is that the all volunteer force was never structured or intended to have to deal with a six year plus engagement where there are non-ending tours expected of the combat troops.
What I basically said and still say is that the all volunteer force was never structured or intended to have to deal with a six year plus engagement where there are non-ending tours expected of the combat troops.
So then, should we have a global get-together with all the nations of the planet, and all sign a big treaty dicating that no war shall ever last more than five years? Or do you ever think of what you are typing before you type it? Yes, I would expect that a two-front war lasting six years and counting would be a strain on *any* military! Yet are there any signs of any cataclysmic failure in our military because of it? Do you not *think* that high-level planners may have considered just such a contingency in all their mountains of contingency planning? Do you not *think* that asset-shifts from around the globe cannot be implimented in an infinite number of ways to address the strain? Or do you think that "Bush's War" is just going to wipe out our entire military as the final evidence of just what a horrendous mistake it was? I suspect the final question was closer to the moonbat wet-dream version of the "truth".
Since the current situation has lasted longer than WWII, you can't conceive of it being possible that it wasn't something that was planned for.
I didn't say it was planned for, I said it was possibly among the hundreds of "what ifs?" that military policy wonks churn out and study for their entire careers. Viet Nam lasted longer that WWII! What possible mental benchmark would anybody take from a war that was ended with two big bangs?
The Pentagon has admitted problems with getting troops enough time between redeployments to allow for adequate R and R.
Problems, yes, of course. Look up the legendary military acronym "SNAFU". But the bottom line is that our military is prosecuting two wars, maintining their presence in countries all over the planet, and protecting US soil as well, not to mention continued training, equipment, and logistics nightmares that are part and parcel of the entire deal. I think they are dealing with the "problems" pretty well, with no sign of a draft in sight.
That there are still those who support slavery - as long as it's imposed on everyone.
And as long as it doesn't apply to them.
Like a steely blade in a silken sheath
We don't see what they're made of
They shout about love,
But when push comes to shove
They live for the things they're afraid of
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Rush - "The Weapon (Part II of Fear)"
There are those who treat every human
interaction as a military engagement that
could escalate into a potential battle
leading to a nice, satisfying conflict
that's part of a war. There is a name for
such people. They're called assholes.
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Stanley Bing - "Sun Tzu Was A Sissy"
Anton...
Current Topic - Bring back the draft. Every one should serve.
