How many of you would be in favor of a law that makes shouting at a poltice officer in your own home (or porch) illegal?
I can agree with saying Gates was wrong, he was rude. he was belligerent, he was disrespectful, he should know better etc, even saying he was being racist.
What I can't agree with is that he should have been arrested.
Think of what such a law would open up. The police could arrest you for saying anything that in theie opinion is too loud or too disrespectful.
Why don't the people who are always espousing their first admendment rights see the error that the officer made?
Maybe a moderate fine for verbally assaulting a PO?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"We are all equal, but we definitely are not the same"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Isn't it interesting that all of a sudden constitutional rights don't mean much to those who dislike Obama?
SAo where inthe Constitution did Obama get the right to appoint Czars. fiore CEOs, determine the salary pf bankers and doezens of other things. Obviously Constitutional; rioghts dopn't mean a lot to those who like Obama. And some claim he was a Constitutional scholar. Wow!
=====================================
One must wonder what quality of student Harvard graduated with that class of 95% A's and B's.
But the way their professors and at least one graduate act, the conclusions should not be hard to reach.
There are a great many things to consider when charging a person with "disorderly conduct." Language, volume, body language, to name just three.
It strikes me that Professor Gates could have gotten the Officer's name the first time if he had just been quiet and listened to what the Officer had to say. There was no need for him to follow the Officer outside of the confines of his home, after refusing to do so when asked by the Officer, and there certainly was no reason for him to ask for, I believe it was, four times for the Officer's name and Badge Number when that information was given to him the first time he asked.
To continue his rude and aberrant behavior outside of his home, even though on his porch, where he was drawing a crowed of civilians and police officers tells me that Professor Gates most certainly WAS "disorderly" and, therefore, the arrest was actually a "good bust" though unnecessary.
In my opinion, and that's all it is, my opinion ... The Town of Cambridge should have dropped the charges as there was a modicum of question as to whether or not Professor Gates had acted in a "disorderly" fashion.
That the Officers were there to protect his property from alleged burglars, black, white, brown or anywhere inbetween, seems to have "floated" over Professor Gates' head! I noticed, while screaming at the Police that they were racist, he did not accuse his neighbors of being racist ... and it was one of them who called in the alleged B&E.
Take care.
Blessed Be.
Alice
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed frequently and for the same reason." From the movie, "Man of the Year"
Does anyone believe the officer arrested Mr. Gates because he was racial profiling? Mr. Gates does ... and he intends to highlight his incident for his crusade against it ... at his meeting at the White House. Oh brother! I think Obama is really getting more than he bargained for ... or is he?
"It was very kind of the President to phone me today. Vernon Jordan is absolutely correct: my unfortunate experience will only have a larger meaning if we can all use this to diminish racial profiling and to enhance fairness and equity in the criminal justice system for poor people and for people of color.
How many of you would be in favor of a law that makes shouting at a poltice officer in your own home (or porch) illegal?
I can agree with saying Gates was wrong, he was rude. he was belligerent, he was disrespectful, he should know better etc, even saying he was being racist.
What I can't agree with is that he should have been arrested.
Think of what such a law would open up. The police could arrest you for saying anything that in theie opinion is too loud or too disrespectful.
Why don't the people who are always espousing their first admendment rights see the error that the officer made?
-----------------
Sandeelady, why is it that whenever an issue is brought up, Constitutional or otherwise, those who are "agin" the actions that occurred automatically want to know how many who are in favor of the incident would appreciate a law either banning or allowing the activity? That is stupid, idiotic and myopic and shows a smallness of mind that is unbelievable.
But, to answer your question ... I, for one, would be against a specific law against going out on one's porch and deliberately taunting those around for whatever reason. As there is already a law against disorderly conduct, I say leave it as it is and let life go on.
The Officer made no error in arresting Professor Gates. Professor Gates made the error in (a) refusing to prove who he was when asked, (b) shouting at the Officer for doing his duty, and (c) accusing the Officer of racism while attempting to protect the Professor's property. Since the only written record of what occurred is the Police Officer's version and since Professor Gates has had the temerity to claim "friendship" (and he had better be careful with that claim, it's not to late to find himself "under the bus") with the current President of the United States as if that were sufficient to allay all possible charges ... well, I'd say the Professor was the one out of line there, not the Police Officer.
Take care.
Blessed Be.
Alice
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed frequently and for the same reason." From the movie, "Man of the Year"
There are a great many things to consider when charging a person with "disorderly conduct." Language, volume, body language, to name just three.
........from what I have been reading by MA law none of that would have mattered inside the home
It strikes me that Professor Gates could have gotten the Officer's name the first time if he had just been quiet and listened to what the Officer had to say. There was no need for him to follow the Officer outside of the confines of his home, after refusing to do so when asked by the Officer, and there certainly was no reason for him to ask for, I believe it was, four times for the Officer's name and Badge Number when that information was given to him the first time he asked.
......Certainly he could have and most likely he should have, but repeatedly asking for the info is not breaking a law
To continue his rude and aberrant behavior outside of his home, even though on his porch, where he was drawing a crowed of civilians and police officers tells me that Professor Gates most certainly WAS "disorderly" and, therefore, the arrest was actually a "good bust" though unnecessary.
............The continuance outside of the home was at the suggestion of the officer and that may have been knowingly the only way the officer could arrest the home resident , which really could be considered entrapment
In my opinion, and that's all it is, my opinion ... The Town of Cambridge should have dropped the charges as there was a modicum of question as to whether or not Professor Gates had acted in a "disorderly" fashion.
.................They did drop the charges. IMO there never should have been any charges
That the Officers were there to protect his property from alleged burglars, black, white, brown or anywhere inbetween, seems to have "floated" over Professor Gates' head! I noticed, while screaming at the Police that they were racist, he did not accuse his neighbors of being racist ... and it was one of them who called in the alleged B&E.
..................He accused the officer of racial profiling. I don't think he should have done that, but again it is not a law breaking situation. In suggesting that in his opinion there had been racial profiling he may have also been including whoever made the call about "two black men" It would seem to me that if he was thinking it was profiling he would have had to have been accusing the caller.
I don't see how the officer could possibly be accused of profiling since it was not the officer's idea to go to the home. The officer was responding to a call. He didn't initiate this whole thing.
I think the officer got so angry about being accused that he didn't handle the whole thing in the simplest way possible.
Now what though? Gates isn't about to let his 15 minutes of fame go away in vain. Knowing now what his intentions are, is it even wise for Officer Crowley to attend the meeting? This puts Obama in a really bad spot. Is he justifying Gates' assertion by going thru with it?
if Gates can make something out of it that will be because he was handcuffed and dragged downtown which imo was a "stupid" thing to do.
As far as Obama goes it would certainly have been easier for him pass on the question. I personally admire his honesty in answering about how he really felt.
Now what though? Gates isn't about to let his 15 minutes of fame go away in vain.
**************************************
Gates had "fame" long before this particular "15 minutes" ..
**********************************************
Knowing now what his intentions are
**********************************************
What are his intentions? You seem to know, how do you know? For all you [or I] know, he might be as embarassed as the cop. You seem to have no problem ascribing the basest of motives to people like Gates, even before you know the whole context.
***********************************************
, is it even wise for Officer Crowley to attend the meeting? This puts Obama in a really bad spot. Is he justifying Gates' assertion by going thru with it?
***********************************************
You know. Sometimes what happens is exactly what you see. If they have a beer together, and nobody goes away unhappy, what is the negative spin on that?
Did you go to the link I provided for 'theroot.com"? The one where Henry Louis Gates Jr. is editor in chief.
"It was very kind of the President to phone me today. Vernon Jordan is absolutely correct: my unfortunate experience will only have a larger meaning if we can all use this to diminish racial profiling and to enhance fairness and equity in the criminal justice system for poor people and for people of color.
And to that end, I look forward to studying the history of racial profiling in a new documentary for PBS. I told the President that my principal regret was that all of the attention paid to his deeply supportive remarks during his press conference had distracted attention from his health care initiative. I am pleased that he, too, is eager to use my experience as a teaching moment, and if meeting Sgt. [James] Crowley for a beer with the President will further that end, then I would be happy to oblige.
After all, I first proposed that Sgt. Crowley and I meet as early as last Monday. If my experience leads to the lessening of the occurrence of racial profiling, then I would find that enormously gratifying. Because, in the end, this is not about me at all; it is about the creation of a society in which 'equal justice before law' is a lived reality."
How many of you would be in favor of a law that makes shouting at a poltice officer in your own home (or porch) illegal?
There seems to be some confusion here about "in your home". Cops are legally empowered to put you on the floor with a knee on your neck, and handcuff you, *in your home* for any number of charges that they can make stick. Interfering with an investigation, and resisting arrest are two that come to mind. And they have a *wide* amout of leeway in their descretion to do so. Which is precisely why it is so stupid to cop an attitude with them! One thing that puzzles me is that a man allegedly as smart as Gates, who has reached the age he has being Black in this country, can be sooo frigging stupid! 30 years ago in another part of the country, he wouldn't be alive today! Of course, if you ask *him*, I'm sure he will give you a lecture on the lack of enough progress on racial sensitivity.(him being alive to give it, and all)
Do you believe the arrest was made because of racial profiling?
*********************************
No, I don't think it was. I think it was a stupid move on both parties, and then, because of the ubiquitous nature of the 24/7 news cycle on the web, that it got turned into a maelstrom of even more stupidity.
And, here we are, and I am participating in it. Geez, I guess I'm stupid too!
yes he does, or at least he seemed to at the time. Honestly I think this whole episode is being blown out of proportion. I dont think Gates should have been arrested just for shouting and carrying on. Once it was determined it was his home that should have been the end of it. The police were responding to a report that two black men were spotted "breaking in" so I dont fault the police at all.
I also think that when questioned Obama should have stuck with "I dont know all the facts" and left it at that.
For Jim: He's been invited to the White House where he expects to be a cause celebre.
For Sable: Did you read the incident report, linked above? Officer Crowley had to exit the home because the yelling was so loud he could not communicate via radio. After outside, Professor Gates was warned that he was becoming unruly. He still chose not to cooperate. He was unruly from the first words out of his mouth and called the officer racist for no reason at all.
For Jim: He's been invited to the White House where he expects to be a cause celebre.
**************************************
So? What does that have to do with being a total asshole to a Law Enforcement officer, at the same time, not breaking the law? You seem to be upset about the amount of media coverage some twit might get, and yet, you don't give a shit about the law enforcement issues that are also in play.
*************************************************
For Sable: Did you read the incident report, linked above? Officer Crowley had to exit the home because the yelling was so loud he could not communicate via radio. After outside, Professor Gates was warned that he was becoming unruly. He still chose not to cooperate. He was unruly from the first words out of his mouth and called the officer racist for no reason at all.
The problem is ... Gates believes it was racial profiling. And from what he wrote in the commentary link I provided, he has not changed his mind.
Gates is a racial hothead who appears very typical of the type. Not only has he not *learned* anything from this experience, he thinks he triumphed! And why not, with all these whitebread Liberal apologists contorting themselves into pretzles to at least minimize his culpability by maximizing that of Crowley. Have you ever heard a single word of contrition from J. Wright for those videos? These people are "somebody!" They do *not* apologize! Here's a life-tip. Anytime anybody asks you, for any reason, "Do you know who I am?" Think ---asshole--- and walk away.
Gates isn't about to let his 15 minutes of fame go away in vain.
Gates has been FAMOUS for a lot longer than that, and he will continue to be famous long after YOU are dead.
Here are just a few of his accomplishments.......
Works
Bibliography
Books (author)
Gates, Henry Louis, Jr. (1987). Figures in Black: Words, Signs, and the "Racial" Self (First edition ed.). New York: Oxford University Press. ISBN 019503564X.
Gates, Henry Louis, Jr. (1988). The Signifying Monkey (First edition ed.). New York: Oxford University Press. ISBN 0195034635.American Book Award
Gates, Henry Louis, Jr. (1992). Loose Canons: Notes on the Culture Wars (First edition ed.). New York: Oxford University Press. ISBN 0195075196.
Gates, Henry Louis, Jr. (1994). Colored People: A Memoir (First edition ed.). New York: Alfred A. Knopf. ISBN 0679421793.
Gates, Henry Louis, Jr.; Cornel West (1996). The Future of the Race (First edition ed.). New York: Alfred A. Knopf. ISBN 067944405X.
Gates, Henry Louis, Jr.; McKay, Nellie Y. The Norton Anthology of African American Literature (First edition ed.). W. W. Norton. ISBN 0393040011.
Gates, Henry Louis, Jr. (1997). Thirteen Ways of Looking at a Black Man (First edition ed.). New York: Random House. ISBN 0679457135.
Gates, Henry Louis, Jr. (1999). Wonders of the African World (First edition ed.). New York: Alfred A. Knopf. ISBN 0375402357.
Gates, Henry Louis, Jr. (2000). The African American Century: How Black Americans Have Shaped Our Century (First edition ed.). New York: Free Press. ISBN 0684864142.
Gates, Henry Louis, Jr. (2007). Finding Oprah's Roots: Finding Your Own (First edition ed.). New York: Crown. ISBN 9780307382382.
Books (editor)
Gates, Henry Louis, Jr. (1999). Africana: The Encyclopedia of the African and African American Experience (First edition ed.). New York: Basic Civitas Books. ISBN 0465000711.
Crafts, Hannah; Gates, Henry Louis, Jr. (2002). The Bondwoman's Narrative (First edition ed.). New York: Warner Books. ISBN 0446690295.
Gates, Henry Louis, Jr. and Hollis Robbins. (2004) Searching for Hannah Crafts: Essays in the Bondwoman's Narrative. New York: Basic/Civitas. ISBN 0465027148
Gates, Henry Louis, Jr. (2008) The African American national biography, New York, NY : Oxford Univ. Press, ISBN 9780195160192
Gates, Henry Louis, Jr.; Yacovone, Donald (2009). Lincoln on Race and Slavery. Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press. ISBN 9780691142340.
The Two Nations of Black America, Host and Scriptwriter, Frontline, WGBH-TV, February 11, 1998.
Leaving Eldridge Cleaver, WGBH, 1999
Wonders of the African World, PBS, October 25-27, 1999 (six-part series) (Shown as Into Africa on BBC-2 in the United Kingdom and South Africa, Summer, 1999)
America Beyond the Color Line, Host and Scriptwriter, (four part series) PBS, 2004.
Looking For Lincoln, Host and Narrator, PBS, February 2009
CD-ROM
Appiah, Anthony; Gates, Henry Louis, Jr (1999). Microsoft Encarta Africana Comprehensive Encyclopedia of Black History and Culture (First edition ed.). Redmond, WA: Microsoft Corp. ISBN 0735600570.[18]
It can be, yes indeed... Nobody that matters is castigating Crowley for the *arrest*. No indication I've seen that he is in any occupational hot water. The decision to drop the charges was above his pay grade.
It can be, yes indeed... Nobody that matters is castigating Crowley for the *arrest*. No indication I've seen that he is in any occupational hot water. The decision to drop the charges was above his pay grade.
gus.
*********************************************
So, the charges against Gates should have gone forward in your estimation?
It can be, yes indeed... Nobody that matters is castigating Crowley for the *arrest*. No indication I've seen that he is in any occupational hot water. The decision to drop the charges was above his pay grade.
gus.
*********************************************
So, the charges against Gates should have gone forward in your estimation?
I am not going to second-guess either Crowley, or whoever in the Cambridge legal system is empowered to adjudicate charges.
I am not going to second-guess either Crowley, or whoever in the Cambridge legal system is empowered to adjudicate charges.
***********************
Well, why aren't you willing to second guess Crowley? You were certainly willing to second guess Gates. From what you know, should Gates be charged with anything? Resisting Arrest perhaps?
Hell in the towns of Irvington or Newark here in Jersey he might have been arrested for inciting a riot! Even though no property was damaged they have done it before when a group gathers and starts yelling like this at cops. They call it preventing a riot around here!
I just know I have clearly learned my lesson answering cops back. I won't do it again even when I know I am right. I calm myself before opening my big mouth!
"...How many of you would be in favor of a law that makes shouting at a poltice officer in your own home (or porch) illegal...?"
No, not in favor of that.
But certainly in favor of the police department solidly backing up the actions of that sterling officer. Anyone with half a brain (and since Gates teaches at Harvard I assume he has half a brain) knows that when a police officer is called to a 911 report of a break in, they are required to do several things.
Crowley did his part; Gates displayed to America what fools are made of.
The more you guys deny, the sillier you sound.
*****
We'll be friends until we're old and senile. Then we'll be new friends.
-Anon.
Hell in the towns of Irvington or Newark here in Jersey he might have been arrested for inciting a riot! Even though no property was damaged they have done it before when a group gathers and starts yelling like this at cops. They call it preventing a riot around here! I just know I have clearly learned my lesson answering cops back. I won't do it again even when I know I am right. I calm myself before opening my big mouth!
*******************
Hell piglet, given the definition of "unruly" ... I would have had a case the first time I went through a NJ toll booth w/o the correct change... gheezus.. I think the "Jerseyites" behind me were going to take me out and string me up... even the toll booth operator was scared... she said... "GHEEZUS FUCKING CHRIST... JUST MOVE ALONG.. WE DON'T NEED YOUR MONEY!!"
we moved.
Jim..
This message has been edited by Avalon99 on Jul 25, 2009 10:03 PM
Hell piglet, given the definition of "unruly" ... I would have a case the first time I went through a NJ toll booth w/o the correct change... gheezus.. I think the "Jerseyites" behind me were going to take me out and string me up... even the toll booth operator was scared... she said... "GHEEZUS FUCKING CHRIST... JUST MOVE ALONG.. WE DON'T NEED YOUR MONEY!!"
Stop!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You're making me homesick
New Jersey is one state I've never visited ... and you're making me realize I probably never will.
I had a boss once who was from there. His wife never did get used to Hoosier Hospitality. She always thought people were up to something just because they courteous.
I spent a few nights in New York City and Newark. We were staging a couple of computer roll-out shows for dealers in the City and in Newark.
The stage crew took me out for drinks and dancing in Newark! Yee haw!
There were about a hundred gorgeous Puerto Rican babes at the dance club. And their bros and boyfriends were combing their hair and trading karate kicks in the parking lots.
But the stage manager said, "Don't worry. They're dying to meetcha. Dying to meetcha!" And they were!
We were California boys from Silicon Valley with too much cash in our pockets and with oversized egos, and the girls flocked around us like curious magpies.
So we danced up a storm and I think the party would have progressed if the bros and boyfriends weren't out in the parking lot. All in all, I was glad to go back to NY City.
No offense, piglet.
*****
We'll be friends until we're old and senile. Then we'll be new friends.
-Anon.
I don't think I will ever be able to explain NJ to people who don't live here LOL.. Hell don't ever get into an easy pass lane on the parkway by mistake! We aren't the most polite people here either. Which sometimes gets on my nerves I must admitt. I don't think I could ever give it up either. Something about it gets in your blood! And if you don't like us we will take your blood also..LOL. Out of all the states I have been to I don't think I could live anywhere else. Or for that matter fit in !
We are just a different here ! Like from another planet! Is sure is a strange state. One you either love or hate. It has to be the roughest state to live in
I don't think I will ever be able to explain NJ to people who don't live here LOL.. Hell don't ever get into an easy pass lane on the parkway by mistake! We aren't the most polite people here either. Which sometimes gets on my nerves I must admitt. I don't think I could ever give it up either. Something about it gets in your blood! And if you don't like us we will take your blood also..LOL. Out of all the states I have been to I don't think I could live anywhere else. Or for that matter fit in ! We are just a different here ! Like from another planet! Is sure is a strange state. One you either love or hate. It has to be the roughest state to live in
*******************************************
Otoh, they have the best sub sandwiches in the known universe... and the best delis. And the best little known Italian restaurants. I swear to God.
"...Otoh, they have the best sub sandwiches in the known universe... and the best delis. And the best little known Italian restaurants. I swear to God. ..."
Wrong, wrong, wrong again. And I thought you were a West Coaster.
Traitor.
*****
We'll be friends until we're old and senile. Then we'll be new friends.
-Anon.
Wrong, wrong, wrong again. And I thought you were a West Coaster.
Traitor.
************************
no really, I've been across the U.S. so many times... lots of time spent in SF... but, I swear to God... you can go into some little corner deli in NJ and get the best food in the known universe... It never fails!
I am not going to second-guess either Crowley, or whoever in the Cambridge legal system is empowered to adjudicate charges.
***********************
Well, why aren't you willing to second guess Crowley? You were certainly willing to second guess Gates. From what you know, should Gates be charged with anything? Resisting Arrest perhaps?
I am not second guessing Gates, I know *exactly* what Gates is. I'm being restrained for the sake of discussion. What I think is that Crowley made a good arrest. I think the brass immediately reviewed the tapes, and interviewed witnesses, and cleared Crowley of any wrongdoing. Then I think the brass and the politicans took over, and *then* the charges were dropped. It's of no consequence to Crowley, he did *his* job, end of story. The tapes are being witheld as evidence, because this isn't over, until lawyers representing either Gates, or Crowley say it's over. The Cambridge PD is perfectly willing to release them, leading me to believe they will only substatiate Crowley's exoneration. To answer your question, I think Crowley acted properly, and have no problem with a later political assessment, and the dropping of the charges.
no really, I've been across the U.S. so many times... lots of time spent in SF... but, I swear to God... you can go into some little corner deli in NJ and get the best food in the known universe... It never fails!
Jim
You are 100% right Jim! Moniker it's the truth I swear. You can go to some dive that you are almost afraid to sit down on the chairs. You get the best food in the world. The sandwiches are to die for. The pizza is the best (although Roby might disagree) You cannot even get a bagel in any other state that compares. The italian cheeses and coldcuts are so fresh and great tasting. Most of all and the best is the TAYLOR HAM AND CHEESE SANDWICHES! You ain't lived until you had one. Along with the White Rose burgers!
Stop!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You're making me homesick
Yeah, me too.These people in VA are just too nice. Makes me nervous.
And for the love of GOD could someone send me a pound of pork roll, sliced thin, and a few Jersey tomatoes? Jeez its not like Im asking someone to fly to the freakin moon and bring me back a rock.
A decent pizza would be nice too. Oh, and some poppy seed rolls from Quick Check.
You are 100% right Jim! Moniker it's the truth I swear. You can go to some dive that you are almost afraid to sit down on the chairs. You get the best food in the world. The sandwiches are to die for. The pizza is the best (although Roby might disagree) You cannot even get a bagel in any other state that compares. The italian cheeses and coldcuts are so fresh and great tasting. Most of all and the best is the TAYLOR HAM AND CHEESE SANDWICHES! You ain't lived until you had one. Along with the White Rose burgers!
***************************
I swear. I avoided Viet Nam by being stationed at Fort Monmouth NJ.. and realizing that their Kaiser Rolls were the best in the known universe. I went to the corner deli every day... got a sack full of kaiser rolls and poppy seed rolls... brought them back to the noncoms and the Officers..
viola'! No orders to Nam! .. [now this is probably a thoughtless lie... but, the parts about kaiser rolls and poppy seed rolls is true]
I love those. We have that in the deli across the street and they will grill it for a sandwich. As far as Italian food is concerned, Jersey has as many Italians as NY and the food, including pizza, is similar.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"We are all equal, but we definitely are not the same"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
![[linked image]](http://www.network54.com/Realm/JansRealm/wfelix.gif)
..."