You know, it would be nice to actually have a thoughtful discussion about this plan. But, when conservatives post shit like Carolyn did the other night... nothing but lies. I have no confidence that it is possible to have a decent conversation about it with conservatives online [although, I know for a fact, that it is possible to have good conversations with conservatives in real life]
Okay...post what the Obamacare bill is...tell us what makes it so great. Convince us we should take it. Come on...give us the answers...I want to know how much it will cost...what it covers, and what doctors I have to see. I want to know how much I have to pay for scrips. I want to know if they are going to let me die because their out-come based plan doesn't allow for setbacks. I want to know who is going to counsel my best friend on the merits of DYING instead of chemo.
Please.....give us the answers oh great one....
~~life isn't about how to survive the storm but how to dance in the rain~~
I would also like to hear what was discussed during those conversations Jim has had in real life with conservatives.
I resent that by asking my questions in the healthcare thread I started that Jim declared I wasn't searching for any truth, by "inference". That's bullshit!
I don't know if he ever revisited that thread, after I posted some more detailed questions and concerns, but he was 'here', posting in other threads and starting some of his own. I would conclude that if he had revisited the thread, he had no input, cannot address the questions because he doesn't know what is in the plan, doesn't care if the plan has specifics upfront, is one of those liberals I encouter daily who just want something/anything passed - amendments galore later, hasn't read the bill and/or only reads portions addressed by others, whether to agree, or point out erroneous information by conducting minimal research on page specific wording in the bill as it's pointed out to him.
The questions and concerns I posed are legitimate and could affect a good number of people here. That's why I asked them, attempting to cause people to think, "thoughtfully" and continue the discussion. Instead, people are either choosing to bury their heads in the sand or just don't give a shit so long as Obama gets a 'win', maybe 'believe' they won't be impacted at all and this plan is just written to embrace the currently uninsured. It isn't.
It would be nice to know the answers to these questions.
In fact it would be nice to know that your current policy won't be changed without your permission. That isn't going to happen either.
What we do know is that reform is needed. Even conservative lawmakers concede that.
But it serves no purpose to decide before hand that the bill is going to be bad no matter who has input and than to post crap that is only intended to distort and mislead.
But it serves no purpose to decide before hand that the bill is going to be bad no matter who has input
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And, it serves no purpose to decide beforehand that the bill is going to be good, either.
As I said in the other thread, many people on the left are blindly supporting this and are just wanting something/anything passed to get it on the books. Some, if not all, of it stinks, they say, it's not definitive in most areas, some claim they haven't read it, others claim they have read it or parts of it and are worried, confused, mad. But, golly-gee...they just want it passed and are hoping to amend the hell out of it, after their victory parties. That is not, imo, the way this thing should go. Do it right the first time.
Well given that its still being hammered out, its obviously impossible to know exactly what will be in the final legislation.
I know I wont get what I really want - single payer. But if theres a public option thats open to everyone nationally from the beginning (no triggers) then Ill support it. Anything less, Im opposed.
All one needs to do is look at the exampl;es of health care around trhe world. While there may be a need for reform, there is a need for someone other than government to reform it.
Once we get a national health care, we will have a national sameness just like the public schools. Competition will be lost and doctors and hospitals will no longer be the best. And when you reach a certain age, there will be no medical care for you.
So let's say that at age 70 you need a stint. Well you ar too old for such an operation because you are a drain on the funds rather than a contributor.l therefore, you sit in your comfortable chair and take life easy until your heart plays out.
Now you may have a different idea about such things, but Hillary care was all about the big lawsuits rather than the doctors and patients. And what have we heard so far about the Obama plan? We will fine any employer who does not provide health care for his employees. Just the nature of the beast.l
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One must wonder what quality of student Harvard graduated with that class of 95% A's and B's.
But the way their professors and at least one graduate act, the conclusions should not be hard to reach.
The first thing that needs to be discussed is just why is the federal government getting into the insurance business? The federal government has no right to enter into private business and will not only bankrupt this country but will also be in direct competition with corporations....corporations that are owned by stock holders and retirement funds. Once these corporations go bankrupt who is going to pay the retirements and IRA's lost due to the federal government's folly? Or is it that by then the leftist will have taken over the retirement funds and combined them social security..(another Obama plan)?
The government getting into insurance is something that doesn't need discussing...IT IS WRONG!
Wake-up people this is really happening!
The language of priorities is the religion of Socialism.....Aneurin Bevan
Somehow, while we weren't paying enough attention, the leftists sank the message deep into the national consiousness that our health care industry is in dire need of reform, insurance comapnies are ripping off the people, and old, poor, and young Americans are dying left and right from lack of healthcare.
Nothing is farther from the truth, but there you have it.
We're the world's best but we're going to shake it up. We're going to shake the very foundations of the world's most innovative, successful healthcare delivery system.
Why not? The government does everything better, doesn't it? So, they'll take our healthcare industry and make it better than the world's best.
Moonbat politics!
Any health care plan to help out the poor and uninsured is a good thing. And we have it, don't we? Medicaid?
*****
We'll be friends until we're old and senile. Then we'll be new friends.
-Anon.
We're the world's best but we're going to shake it up. We're going to shake the very foundations of the world's most innovative, successful healthcare delivery system.
Gregg, I suggest you look at the world's ranking of health care....we are far from the *world's best.* Try google. And, this post in no way endorses our current health care, the future health care bill, nor the health care of any other country (just to be on the safe side from the likes of potsy and gus).
America, we are better than these last eight years. We are a better country than this.
Barack Obama
Acceptance Speech at Democratic Convention Aug 28th 2008
The World Health Organization's ranking of the world's health systems was last produced in 2000, and the WHO no longer produces such a ranking table, because of the complexity of the task.
1 France 2 Italy 3 San Marino 4 Andorra 5 Malta 6 Singapore 7 Spain 8 Oman 9 Austria 10 Japan 11 Norway 12 Portugal 13 Monaco 14 Greece 15 Iceland 16 Luxembourg 17 Netherlands 18 United Kingdom 19 Ireland 20 Switzerland 21 Belgium 22 Colombia 23 Sweden 24 Cyprus 25 Germany 26 Saudi Arabia 27 United Arab Emirates 28 Israel 29 Morocco 30 Canada 31 Finland 32 Australia 33 Chile 34 Denmark 35 Dominica 36 Costa Rica 37 United States of America 38 Slovenia
The World Health Organization's ranking of the world's health systems was last produced in 2000, and the WHO no longer produces such a ranking table, because of the complexity of the task.
Okay...post what the Obamacare bill is...tell us what makes it so great. Convince us we should take it. Come on...give us the answers...I want to know how much it will cost...what it covers, and what doctors I have to see. I want to know how much I have to pay for scrips. I want to know if they are going to let me die because their out-come based plan doesn't allow for setbacks. I want to know who is going to counsel my best friend on the merits of DYING instead of chemo.
I want you to give me your specific problems with it. You cover the landscape with bullshit and dire predictions. You are just baiting, and you've become a master at it. And, given that the whole bill is still in committee (actually, a couple of committees), you don't even know what the final product is going to be (nor do I). As far as I can see, you are just regurgitating rightwing talking points.
I've at least gone to the current document (as it existed at the time) and proven that the allegations that were first made were bullshit.
I want you to give me your specific problems with it.
Okay. See: "Medicare".
And, given that the whole bill is still in committee (actually, a couple of committees), you don't even know what the final product is going to be (nor do I). As far as I can see, you are just regurgitating rightwing talking points.
As long as we are on the subject of regurgitating talking points, yours here is the latest from the Left. The co-ordination you people have is sometimes amazing. From bat-blog, to MSLSD, to the chat boards, often within hours.
I know what the final product can *not* be, no matter what, and that is all *I* need to know. As a True Believer, you may see this "final product" claptrap as something besides a chess-move by the Democrats, but then you would.
I want you to give me your specific problems with it.
Okay. See: "Medicare".
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bullshit.. You give THAT kind of answer? Unless we buy into your bullshit that all government is bad, then we are just regurgitating "leftwing bullshit", right? "Medicare" kept my mother alive for at least 3 years. And it didn't have to break the bank to do it.
What is SPECIFICALLY wrong with medicare? You condemn it, but, you don't know shit about it.
What is SPECIFICALLY wrong with medicare? You condemn it, but, you don't know shit about it.
Well it's going broke for starters, even after decades of billions to keep propping it up. Would you go to work for a company in such a condition?
Secondly, a fundamental *reason* for it's condition is the pandemic waste, fraud, and abuse. It's a *government* program, imagine that...
Third, it is the *primary* cause for "skyrocketing health costs", making it wonderfully ironic that you Obamacare numbnuts look to the *exact same* people for a solution to a problem they are a major contributor to. Losing too many chickens? Hire a fox! gheezuz...
Well it's going broke for starters, even after decades of billions to keep propping it up. Would you go to work for a company in such a condition?
Secondly, a fundamental *reason* for it's condition is the pandemic waste, fraud, and abuse. It's a *government* program, imagine that...
Third, it is the *primary* cause for "skyrocketing health costs", making it wonderfully ironic that you Obamacare numbnuts look to the *exact same* people for a solution to a problem they are a major contributor to. Losing too many chickens? Hire a fox! gheezuz...
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g'night gus. I really am tired of dealing with idiots like you. You don't provide data, You just assert shit that, like a trained monkey, you've been trained to do.
Unlike Jan, I'm tired of wasting neurons on people like you.
You have all the "right" in the world to call that capitulation if you wish. good luck.
You have all the "right" in the world to call that capitulation if you wish. good luck.
Indeed I do, and indeed I shall. And it's too bad. As you can read in another thread, Moon and I had a rather extended, and altogether civil back-and-forth. I *can* answer questions, and I *can* give reasons that I think sound for my opinions. Anybody with nothing more than two fingers and a keyboard can cut & paste. That "gus" in your comic book is your problem, not mine, as this exchange so clearly illustrates. You need only to get off that fucking high-horse.
Indeed I do, and indeed I shall. And it's too bad. As you can read in another thread, Moon and I had a rather extended, and altogether civil back-and-forth. I *can* answer questions, and I *can* give reasons that I think sound for my opinions.
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No, you can't (and you haven't). You don't have the neuronal capacity to answer in a thoughtful way.
You've proved that over the years... You're nothing but a jerk.
So, this 2000 WHO survey puts Columbia and Cyprus and Dominica ahead of the United States? Have they ever been to those countries? You've got chickens in the reception rooms! No screens on the windows. Bodies lying on the street waiting to be picked up.
There is something very, very wrong with this report. But you know what, I've been around the world a few times and lived overseas for seven years. I know what medical service is like around the world and if I ever pass out in Rome, please put me on a plane to America, STAT.
*****
We'll be friends until we're old and senile. Then we'll be new friends.
-Anon.
The World Health Organization's ranking of the world's health systems.
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Are you even aware of how that ranking was developed? Probably not, like the many others I've seen post it and/or reference it as their 'argument' for America's terrible healthcare system. It's keerap, but that won't stop it's spread, like most talking points.
Also, since the US is ranked #37, you should be able to provide us with many horror stories of US healthcare since you spent your professional days (30+ years?) working within the system, and give us specifics for 'reforms' you think are necessary.
I'd also like to see you address the history of the system as you've personally been close to it's evolvement, from good to bad. People such as yourself, imo, should be on the soapbox via forum/blog/org communications to provide experienced, documented, researched, support for reforms or, better, providing input via all those new .gov sites to assist in the 'reform' process.
Instead, the best you give is the WHO ranking, which is clearly now too complex for WHO to 'make up'.
but more as inquiries from someone else who wants specific answers before signing on, similar to my inquiries in the other thread.
1) post what the Obamacare bill is
2) what makes it so great. Convince us we should take it.
3) I want to know how much it will cost...what it covers, and what doctors I have to see.
4) I want to know how much I have to pay for scrips.
5) I want to know if they are going to let me die because their out-come based plan doesn't allow for setbacks.
6) I want to know who is going to counsel my best friend on the merits of DYING instead of chemo.
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It's becoming obvious, day-by-day, that many here who support Obamacare have not read the bill, nor have they made attempts to research even segments of the bill, unless items are pointed out to them, prompting investigation. And there is blind support for it, using mainly talking points, urls, copy/pastes...or diverting the discussion with insults...instead of trying to have "thoughtful discussions". It's difficult to have those "thoughtful discussions" when people aren't being 'thoughtful' and are more inclined to 'let it (the legislation) ride', without much thought to it's impact on our, our children's and our grandchildren's futures. ~sigh~
bullshit.. You give THAT kind of answer? Unless we buy into your bullshit that all government is bad, then we are just regurgitating "leftwing bullshit", right? "Medicare" kept my mother alive for at least 3 years. And it didn't have to break the bank to do it.
What is SPECIFICALLY wrong with medicare? You condemn it, but, you don't know shit about it.
I'm finding it rather odd that the 'medicare" that kept mother alive for three years is somehow not up to the task of taking care of the daughter.
I just don't understand why, if Medicare and Medicaid work so well, they don't just extend those programs to cover people who don't have insurance.
Wouldn't that take care of the Dems stated goals? They could put off their masive restructuring of the world's best medical resources and delivery system until we've had time to define it and implement it properly.
*****
We'll be friends until we're old and senile. Then we'll be new friends.
-Anon.
Wouldn't that take care of the Dems stated goals? They could put off their masive restructuring of the world's best medical resources and delivery system until we've had time to define it and implement it properly.
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It isn't the "best" no matter how many times you repeat that lie. It ain't the best.
You are a tool of the corporate lies. I already know that. Come up with a better moniker.
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