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Obama's Separation of Church and State

August 21 2009 at 8:17 PM

Moniker  (Login moniker12)

No comment. Just this little nugget of relaity from James Taranto. Where's the liberal outrage?

A reader points out that President Obama's call with the rabbis today--as recorded in Rabbi Jack Moline's and other clerics' Twitter feeds--freights health care reform with a great deal of religious meaning, and veers into the blend of policy and faith that outraged liberals in the last administration.

"We are God's partners in matters of life and death," Obama said, according to Moline (paging Sarah Palin . .&nbspl.), quoting from the Rosh Hashanah prayer that says that in the holiday period, it is decided "who shall live and who shall die."
The president ended the call by wishing the rabbis "shanah tovah," or happy new year--in reference to the High Holidays a month from now.

"We are God's partners"?! Hmm, God & Obama? No, wait! Obama & God. Yeah, that's much better!

As Tevi Troy notes at National Review Online, "The reference to the 'who shall live and who shall die' prayer was strange. . . . Is this really the context in which he wishes to discuss health reform--a powerful and unseen being making determinations of life and death? One would think that he would want to avoid anything that could raise the specter of rationing, death panels, or the like."

Further, "We are God's partners in matters of life and death" is not part of the Rosh Hashanah liturgy. Those words are Obama's. Granted he is in a higher pay grade than he was a year ago--but not nearly as high as he seems to think.



*****
To no one will we sell, to no one will we refuse or delay, right or justice.
-- Magna Carta

 
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Janie
(Login pphhrogg)

*chortle* AGAIN!

August 21 2009, 9:27 PM 

Just this little nugget of relaity [sic] from James Taranto.

When did Taranto start living in reality?  That would be something NEW for him!





 
 

Moniker
(Login moniker12)

Re: Obama's Separation of Church and State

August 21 2009, 9:47 PM 

Attack the messenger. Don't give his point of view any credence by responding directly to it.

- From the Democratic National Party Playbook.



*****
To no one will we sell, to no one will we refuse or delay, right or justice.
-- Magna Carta

 
 
Janie
(Login pphhrogg)

ROTFLMAO!!!

August 21 2009, 9:48 PM 

Bulphrog was correct, moroniker.  You are VERY stupid.



 
 

(Login Avalon99)

Re: Obama's Separation of Church and State

August 21 2009, 9:50 PM 

Actually, that is what I would expect from a real Christian.  I don't see the cognitive dissonance that you seem to think exists.

Jim..


 
 

gus.
(Login gus-mccrea)

Re: Obama's Separation of Church and State

August 21 2009, 10:02 PM 

Actually, that is what I would expect from a real Christian.  I don't see the cognitive dissonance that you seem to think exists.

   Well of course not!  The cognitive dissonance lies squarely in the brains of the idiot "progressives" who wad their panties all up over courthouse nativities in the first place!  To *see* it would require a certain level of introspection!

gus.

 


 
 

Moniker
(Login moniker12)

Re: Obama's Separation of Church and State

August 21 2009, 10:05 PM 

Gus, I was kind of expecting a cogent reply from the moonbats about their turnaround regarding a presidentiual reference to religion.

When Bush did it, it was Anathema!

When Obama does it... Oh, well.



*****
To no one will we sell, to no one will we refuse or delay, right or justice.
-- Magna Carta

 
 

gus.
(Login gus-mccrea)

Re: Obama's Separation of Church and State

August 21 2009, 10:21 PM 

Gus, I was kind of expecting a cogent reply from the moonbats about their turnaround regarding a presidentiual reference to religion.

   I won't denigrate your good-faith expectations.  You probably think the birds in your cherry trees are after the bugs.happy.gif

gus.

 

 


 
 

(Login Poetse12)

Re: Obama's Separation of Church and State

August 21 2009, 10:27 PM 

It appears to me that the difference is to most people that a religion is Christian, Islam, Judaism, etc. Those are the religions they object to.

But liberalism is their religion; therefore, it is not really a problem of separation.

=====================================
Liberals feel--Conservatives think.

 
 
Janie
(Login pphhrogg)

Nope...

August 21 2009, 10:30 PM 

...in no way is being a social liberal (or even a fiscal one, for that matter) a "religion".



 
 
fisconsoclib
(Login fisconsoclib)

Re: Obama's Separation of Church and State

August 21 2009, 10:37 PM 

The idea that liberalism is a religion was a stupid idea that Ann Coulter came up with. Since then the neoconservative parots keep throughing that silly idea up to us. How pathetic.

 
 

(Login Poetse12)

Re: Obama's Separation of Church and State

August 21 2009, 10:42 PM 

So do you know about the history of Social Theology, Socialism, and Black Liberation Theology, and Liberalism.

Check it out sometime.

=====================================
Liberals feel--Conservatives think.

 
 
fisconsoclib
(Login fisconsoclib)

Re: Obama's Separation of Church and State

August 21 2009, 11:06 PM 

Just because people use religious reasons for their politics does not make their liberalism or conservativism a religion. Both parties cater to the religious in their party.

 
 

(Login Avalon99)

Re: Obama's Separation of Church and State

August 21 2009, 11:12 PM 

 Well of course not!  The cognitive dissonance lies squarely in the brains of the idiot "progressives" who wad their panties all up over courthouse nativities in the first place!  To *see* it would require a certain level of introspection!

**************************

Actually, that is a lie.  The ACLU has supported the Nativity Scenes on public property for the past 30 years. 

Jim...


 
 

gus.
(Login gus-mccrea)

Re: Obama's Separation of Church and State

August 21 2009, 11:22 PM 

Well of course not!  The cognitive dissonance lies squarely in the brains of the idiot "progressives" who wad their panties all up over courthouse nativities in the first place!  To *see* it would require a certain level of introspection!

**************************

Actually, that is a lie.  The ACLU has supported the Nativity Scenes on public property for the past 30 years.

   My point is that they needed any "supporting" in the first place.

gus.

 


 
 

Moniker
(Login moniker12)

The Religion of Liberalism

August 21 2009, 11:29 PM 

Interesting blogging at the Stanford University Law School.

The Religion of Liberalism

by Colin Rule, posted on February 13, 2006 - 3:35pm

In yesterdays New York Times the distinguished law professor Stanley Fish offered some provocative commentary on the recent furor over the Danish cartoons:

The first tenet of the liberal religion is that everything (at least in the realm of expression and ideas) is to be permitted, but nothing is to be taken seriouslyThis is why calls for "dialogue," issued so frequently of late by the pundits {} are unlikely to fall on receptive ears. The belief in the therapeutic and redemptive force of dialogue depends on the assumption (central to liberalism's theology) that, after all, no idea is worth fighting over to the death and that we can always reach a position of accommodation if only we will sit down and talk it out.

But a firm adherent of a comprehensive religion doesn't want dialogue about his beliefs; he wants those beliefs to prevail. Dialogue is not a tenet in his creed, and invoking it is unlikely to do anything but further persuade him that you have missed the point as, indeed, you are pledged to do, so long as liberalism is the name of your faith.

Also: What religious beliefs are owed and this is a word that appears again and again in the recent debate is "respect"; nothing less, nothing more. The thing about respect is that it doesn't cost you anything; its generosity is barely skin-deep and is in fact a form of condescension: I respect you; now don't bother me.

Prof. Fishs disdain for the religion of liberalism is extremely clear from the column, and there are certain turns of phrase in the column that appear to caricature the concepts he associates with it. However, I think the column hits on some subtler points that are quite worthy of discussion.I do agree that it is incumbent upon all of us to try to avoid expressions that we know will be hurtful or injurious to others. We do retain the right to express ourselves as we see fit, but that doesnt mean we have a duty to continually express sentiments that we know will be insulting and offensive to others. The cartoons published by the Danes were, as Fish notes, highly insensitive, and the stated aim of the editor to avoid self-censorship was a foolish justification for the act of publication. One can see in the Iranian Holocaust cartoon competition the reaction to this particular line of argument. I also agree that the argument of reciprocity you do it to us, so we can do it to you is also paper thin. Such justifications merely stoke the fires of anger and hatred and get us no closer to coexistence.

However, that is where my disagreements with the column begin. If, as Professor Fish points out, firm adherents to religion dont want dialogue because they want their belief to prevail, how is it that two people of different and opposing religions can coexist? Must it be inevitable that one must prevail over the other? Do firm believers in opposing ideas have to be in perpetual conflict? It seems to me that this is the core assertion of Prof. Fishs column dialogue is an insult to the believer. But one is left thinking, so now what? If appeals to dialogue further persuade {the believer} that you have missed the point then where is one left? It seems Prof. Fishs argument forces us to choose between converting or fighting.

I find the dismissive attitude toward respect particularly troubling. I strongly disagree that respect doesnt cost anything and that its generosity is skin deep and that it is in fact a form of condescension. In fact, these days even expressing respect can be extremely costly. In the face of a true believer, who wants you to believe what they believe, I can see how respect is not satisfying. But is it condescending to not agree with the true believer? Isnt it more condescending not to accord the belief respect, but to fight against it? Is Prof. Fishs assertion that fighting the firm adherent is somehow more respectful than trying to find a way to co-exist? Prof. Fish seems to be arguing that respect is valueless, but again I must ask, what is the alternative? Convert or fight is not an appropriate range of choices.

It seems all too common these days for people to characterize the mind of the fanatic and then to ascribe all sorts of behaviors to it. This kind of stereotyping is always dangerous, and it usually leads to very questionable conclusions. There are extremists in every society, and ideally they are held in check by more moderate voices who maintain a more holistic perspective. This is definitely true in the Muslim world, as it is undoubtedly true in the Christian and Jewish ones.

My sense is that this column seems to assert that dialogue is impossible with those people, and that their intransigence is used as a means to de-legitimize any calls for dialogue on our side. This line of argument serves to create a false choice between acquiescence and domination, where the clearly desirable choice is domination. But domination is the truly utopian vision, no matter how vilified the pre-9/11 left may be as being disconnected from reality. Muslims make up a fifth of the worlds population. Were not going to be able to convert all of them, and theyre not going to be able to convert all of us. Our only option is to find a way to live together.

Calling liberalism a religion further muddies the water here, as the article is referring to actual religious adherents at the same time it uses the metaphor of religion in characterizing the core beliefs of liberalism. Who is Professor Fish talking about exactly when we describes this religion of liberalism? Is he talking about the Danish editor, or Democrats, or secular humanists, or hippies, or who? Is it anyone who believes in dialogue and respect? What liberalism church is one obliged to attend where this belief system is enumerated? Prof. Fish extends the metaphor by saying that if you insist upon dialogue with the true believer you have missed the point as, indeed, you are pledged to do, so long as liberalism is the name of your faith. I take this to mean that the point is the truth as articulated by the firm adherent, and missing the point means not ascribing to it. However, missing the point implies a lack of understanding or sophistication, and I dont agree that rejecting conversion is synonymous with ignorance or misunderstanding. This metaphor depicts anyone who argues for dialogue and respect as just another firm adherent fighting for their particular perspective.

I go back to Appiahs vision of Cosmopolitanism for a compellingly articulated counter vision for coexistence:
A tenable global ethics has to temper a respect for difference with a respect for the freedom of actual human beings to make their own choices. Thats why cosmopolitans dont insist that everyone become cosmopolitan. They know they dont have all the answers. Theyre humble enough to think that they might learn from strangers; not too humble to think that strangers cant learn from them.

http://cyberlaw.stanford.edu/blogs/rule/archives/003782.shtml



*****
To no one will we sell, to no one will we refuse or delay, right or justice.
-- Magna Carta

 
 

(Login Avalon99)

Re: Obama's Separation of Church and State

August 21 2009, 11:32 PM 

Going back to 2006?  Digging for the least.  And, gus, yes, who would "support" it if the ACLU didn't?

You people are idiots.  Why don't you learn to learn?

Jim...


 
 
Janie
(Login pphhrogg)

Why should anyone....

August 21 2009, 11:33 PM 

...give a shit about ONE person's OPINION on the subject? (blogs are nothing but opinions)



 
 

gus.
(Login gus-mccrea)

Re: Obama's Separation of Church and State

August 21 2009, 11:35 PM 

And, gus, yes, who would "support" it if the ACLU didn't?

   If it weren't for the idiot progressives with the wadded panties, it wouldn't be in *need* of any support.  That's my point.

gus.

 


 
 

(Login Avalon99)

Re: Obama's Separation of Church and State

August 21 2009, 11:37 PM 

If it weren't for the idiot progressives with the wadded panties, it wouldn't be in *need* of any support.  That's my point.

*************************

oh, ok.. got it... if those who disagreed with you would just shut up, it would be a better world?

Jim..


 
 

gus.
(Login gus-mccrea)

Re: Obama's Separation of Church and State

August 21 2009, 11:43 PM 

oh, ok.. got it... if those who disagreed with you would just shut up, it would be a better world?

   It's a lovely thought, but then since I have no aspirations to "lead" anyone, I doubt I would get, nor do I expect any credit.

   Now I would re-direct your attention to the thread of the post.  That of the "cognitive dissonance" that you don't see, that Moniker apparently does.

gus.

 


 
 
fisconsoclib
(Login fisconsoclib)

Re: Obama's Separation of Church and State

August 21 2009, 11:54 PM 

I knew that Obama was going to continue faith based initiative even before I voted for him. Knowing also that McCain would also continue faith based initiative made that a mute point. I still voted for Obama.

 
 

cj
(Login cjgrill)

Re: Obama's Separation of Church and State

August 21 2009, 11:59 PM 

Obama supported faith based initiatives when he was running, I didn't like it but I too voted for him. Hard to find a candidate you agree with 100%  of the time.

 
 

(Login Avalon99)

Re: Obama's Separation of Church and State

August 22 2009, 1:02 AM 

Now I would re-direct your attention to the thread of the post.  That of the "cognitive dissonance" that you don't see, that Moniker apparently does.

***********************

As if you or Moniker ever followed the thread.  Almost never.

Jim..


 
 

(Login Avalon99)

Re: Obama's Separation of Church and State

August 23 2009, 10:56 PM 

Now I would re-direct your attention to the thread of the post.  That of the "cognitive dissonance" that you don't see, that Moniker apparently does.

*******************************

After having re-read the entire thread, I still have to say that neither you nor Moniker has a clue about what the phrase "Separation of Church and State" is all about. 

Nor do you appear to understand the First Amendment in this regard.  [and, btw, my view happens to be sustained by about 80 years of SC decisions.. but, keep fooling yourselves]

Jim...


 
 
Janie
(Login pphhrogg)

More that was written by Rabbi Moline

August 25 2009, 3:11 AM 

What stood out about the call is that Obama "is a master communicator," Moline, the rabbi of the Conservative Agudas Achim Congregation in Alexandria, said in an interview after the call ended.

"This was clearly a message that was tailored to us," and not merely a generic stump speech, he added.

http://www.washingtonjewishweek.com/main.asp?SectionID=57&SubSectionID=76&ArticleID=11291





 
 
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