Hi,
whether you have any information's about this type light tank used by at 2nd Tank Battalion?
I know: Chinese 2nd Tank Battalion during second battle of Shanghai (1937) had 17 x Vickers F/E Light Tank, 8 x Carden-Lloyd Mk VI Tankeete, 4 x Renault ZB Light Tank and (peculiarly it being interested in me) 4 x Vickers-Carden-Loyd Model 1936 Light Tanks.
This battalion fight agains Japanese between 13 August 9 November 1937. And next he was withdrawn since he lost 50 % vehicles.
I know: IJA captured or destroyed approx. 10 Vickers F/E Tank. I have many photos in Chinese Vickers F/E Light Tank captured by IJA at Shanghai.
Unfortunatelly I don't have not a single photo Vickers-Carden-Loyd Model 1936 Light Tanks captured by IJA, or used by Kuomintang. I don't know even, whether all 4 vehicles were lost during fights about Shanghai in 1937. Perhaps some vehicle survived the battle? Whether anybody knows, how were painted these vehicles used by in 2nd Tank Battalion?
The topic is complicated because: for example - PzKfz I Ausf A Light Tank used in 1st Tank Battalion, were being painted as far in three varieties.
Maybe anybody knows, or have some informations, or photographs this type tank used by Chinese or captured / destroyed by IJA at Shanghai?
I did a cursory surfing of the web, but I too could not find much information on the Vickers-Carden-Loyd Model 1936 light tanks sold to China, other than what you state. As you likely know, it was a two-man, 3.8-ton light tank designed for export, primarily to the Netherlands East Indies. Its standard armament was a single .303 Vickers machine gun and it was equipped with a wireless; its speed was about 65 km/hr. I commend two websites, if you've not visited them.
The first is specifically on armored fighting vehicles acquired and used by China:
The entry on the VCL M1936 is brief and merely confirms that China purchased four of these light tanks. The accompanying black & white photo of this light tank (click on to enlarge) is very likely a Vickers publicity shot, and NOT specifically taken in China.
The second website, that of the Tank Museum in Britain, is more helpful.
The color photo of the VCL M1936 light tank (click on to enlarge) shows the standard camouflage paint scheme provided on the tanks sold to the NEI, which may well be the same one used by the Chinese. BUT the reader is cautioned that the armament, wireless equipment, and camouflage paint scheme differed, as specified by the purchaser. Again, China is confirmed as one such purchaser, but no other particulars are mentioned.
Best I can do right now and good luck on your search.
Yes, I know both websites which you are recommending. But very thanks you for the interest.
>The color photo of the VCL M1936 light tank (click on to enlarge) shows the standard camouflage paint scheme provided on >the tanks sold to the NEI, which may well be the same one used by the Chinese. BUT the reader is cautioned that the >armament, wireless equipment, and camouflage paint scheme differed, as specified by the purchaser. Again, China is >confirmed as one such purchaser, but no other particulars are mentioned.
Almost certainly 4 Chinese vehicles VCL M1936 light tank which were a serwed at Chinese 2nd Tank Battalion during second battle of Shanghai - they were painting as similarly as in 1-3 picture, or 2 picture.
From my Japanese friends I know, that probably VCL M1936 light tank from 2nd Tank Battalion was not captured by the IJA during battle of Shanghaj 1937.
However after the KNIL surrender IJA captured by probably about 15 serviceable VCL M1936 light tank. This vehicles probably used for training and police duties.
Curiosity Poland was probably the first foreign country, in which the Vickers company tested new VCL M1936 light tank. It was taken the September and the October of 1932 (in surroundings of the stronghold Modlin, near Warsaw). Representatives of the Vickers company presented three vehicles there: one VCL M1936 light tank, one Carden Loyd M1931 Amphibious Tank and some artillery prime mover.
I have tried in learn more about the camouflage paint schemes on Chinese AFVs of World War II, but was not overly successful. Two of the colored drawings provided in your last posting suggest that the garish camouflage patterns from World War I and lasting in some countries into the mid-1930s adorned at least two of the tank types purchased by China, namely the Vickers Light Amphibious Tank (Drawing No. 1) and the Vickers 6-Ton Tank, Variant F, which includes the rearward turret extension for a wireless set (Drawing No. 3). The Vickers 6-Ton Tanks acquired by Poland also had this old-fashioned paint scheme during the mid-1930s. The Pzkfw I, Ausf A (Drawing No. 4) reveals the more natural vehicle and aircraft camouflage scheme used by several nations during WWII, although perhaps significantly,
indicates that the Chinese sunburst marking was painted right onto the German production grey not long after the receipt of these light tanks. Of course, that hardly precludes these German-origin AFVs later being given a camouflage paint job.
For several examples of this older camouflage paint scheme still in use on tanks and other AFVs, particular in French and Polish service, see Peter Chamberlain & Chris Ellis's 1972 PICTORIAL HISTORY OF TANKS OF THE WORLD 1915-45.
I have found the following in my notes regarding AFV sales to China during the 1930's. The information was supplied to me by e-mail in response to a query on the old George Bradford AFV News forum many years ago.
Unfortunately, I have lost the name and e-mail address of the author of the document. He cites as sources the archives of Vickers-Armstrong held at Cambridge University and the Tank Museum, Bovington.
"The complete list for Vickers AFV sale to China for 1928-38 are:
Second Quarter 1930: 12 Vickers-Carden-Loyd (VCL) Mk.VI machinegun carriers (with unspecified machineguns, probably Vickers Class C) and 6 trailers plus spares, etc. for 15,770 pounds sterling.
First Quarter 1933: 12 VCL amphibian light tanks for the Canton provincial government for 37,380 pounds sterling.
Fourth Quarter 1933: 1 VCL amphibian light tank with 8mm machinegun for 3,000 pounds sterling.
First Quarter 1934: 12 VCL amphibian light tanks, 12 6-ton tanks, and 3,200 rounds of 47mm ammunition for 100,190 pounds sterling. The 12 6-ton tanks were serial numbered VAE800-811 and were ordered on 9 March 1934 on TD1882 by Matheson & Co., Lombard Street, London EC3 for China. They had Superflexit fuel lines, were painted in camouflage and were armed with a Type B 47mm and a Class C 7.92mm water-cooled machinegun. They were delivered to Nanking 29 September to 13 November 1934.
Second Quarter 1934: 4 VCL amphibian light tanks, 4 6-ton tanks, 2,860 rounds of ammunition and spares for 39,947 pounds sterling. The 6-ton tanks were serial numbered VAE845-848 and were ordered on 25 May 1934 on TD1966 for China. They were equipped with Superflexit fuel lines, were painted in camouflage and were armed with a Type B 47mm and a Class C 7.92mm water-cooled machinegun. They were delivered 11 March to 10 May 1935.
Fourth Quarter 1935: 4 VCL light tanks, 4 6-ton tanks, radios, 2,400 rounds of ammunition for 37,500 pounds sterling. The 6-ton tanks were serial numbered VAE1148-1151 and ordered on 12 October 1935 on TD2650. They also had Superflexit fuel lines, a Pyrene fire extinguisher, were painted in camouflage and were armed with a Type B 47mm and 7.92mm water-cooled machinegun. Of note is that they were each equipped with a Marconi G2A transmitter-receiver set and were delivered on 21 October 1936. These tanks initially had twin machinegun turrets but the order was changed to single gun turrets which added 5,700 pounds to the contract price."
Although the focus of the above information is clearly the Vickers 6-ton tanks, the contract dates and information may be of use in tracing further information on the VCL 4-ton light tanks in question.
>The Vickers 6-Ton Tanks acquired by Poland also had this old-fashioned paint scheme >during the mid-1930s.
Yes. That's true. This type of camouflage was withdrawn in Poland in 1938. As the curiosity I will write that Polish tankmen named him "with camouflage Japanese type".
>see Peter Chamberlain & Chris Ellis's 1972 PICTORIAL HISTORY OF TANKS OF THE WORLD >1915-45.
Peter Chamberlain it is an excellent author. All his books are still standing still.
Dear Nelson,
I thank you for an interest in the topic.
Re: Vickers-Carden-Loyd Model 1936 Light Tanks from Chinese 2nd Tank Battalion
June 30 2009, 6:02 AM
Jabu: Thank you for your summation re Chinese Tk Bn's. Do you have any data as to shipment of these tanks? I seem to have seen a picture with a caption indicating the arrival of the 1936 model at Hong Kong some time in late 1937 or early 1938. My interest is the shipment and arrival of military goods to China. Names of ships, cargo, departure and arrival dates?
< My interest is the shipment and arrival of military goods to China. >
Is there any chance your interest is not restricted to China, but includes other places in the Far East, such as Manila? Or that along the way, even if incidentally, you have learned about the shipment of military goods to the Philippines?
Re: Vickers-Carden-Loyd Model 1936 Light Tanks from Chinese 2nd Tank Battalion
July 2 2009, 11:55 PM
Dear Jerry,
>Do you have any data as to shipment of these tanks? My interest is the shipment and >arrival of military goods to China. Names of ships, cargo, departure and arrival dates?
I specialize in the Japanese infantry and IJA field artillery. I asked about Chinese Vickers Model 1936 light tanks, since my friend wrote the article to this topic. Unfortunately neither I, nor he, we don't have the information about which you are asking.
But I hope that somebody soon will answer you.
Re: Vickers-Carden-Loyd Model 1936 Light Tanks from Chinese 2nd Tank Battalion
July 3 2009, 6:19 PM
Thanks Jabu--the entire thread has been informative. I am fascinated by the Japanese effort to blockade China and by China's effort to subvert that effort. Since Martin bombers were common to the NEI and China perhaps someone with an interest in the KNIL make recall some tidbit relative to the Marin's that I understand were stuck in Manla when the Sino-Japanese war started.
Re: Vickers-Carden-Loyd Model 1936 Light Tanks from Chinese 2nd Tank Battalion
July 7 2009, 1:27 PM
Hi Jerry,
Sino-Japanese war it is wery interest conflict. Unfortunately, I specialize in IJA field artillery and infantry weapons. But here are looking many specialists of other fields . Certainly somebody will help you.
Regards,
jabu
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