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The Death Penalty

May 31 2009 at 1:51 PM
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KeithDB  (Premier Login KeithDB)
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The most recent atrocity, with the cold blooded murder of the abortion doctor, provides me with an opportunity to express my views on the death penalty. I fully support it, to include for the perp in this case.

My only regrets for the death penalty is that we are too soft in its implementation. The murderers should die in a manner that as closely as practical approximates the experience of his victim.


"The world is a mess, and I just need to rule it." --Dr. Horrible.

 
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Heather
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Death Penalty

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May 31 2009, 3:43 PM 

Kansas does have a death penalty, but we have not executed anyone in a long time. I do support the death penalty as well, but I don't like the way it is carried out. For instance, some guy on death row sits there for 15-20 years.I will keep the Dr and his family in my prayers.

 
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Bfgrrn
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Re: The Death Penalty

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June 1 2009, 7:58 AM 

Wow Keith, your thirst for "punishment" is a glaring sign of an authoritarian follower.

You want MORE people put to death; even though 133 people have been released from death row in 26 states since 1973, because of evidence of their INNOCENCE...

 
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KeithDB
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Re: The Death Penalty

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June 1 2009, 8:10 AM 

I did not say "more." I did say how. I would also support stronger safeguards to ensure that innocent people are not snared.

 
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Bfgrrn
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Re: The Death Penalty

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June 1 2009, 8:28 AM 

133 people released from death row because they were innocent tells me we've already executed innocent people...

The death penalty should be banned in this country...

You have NO facts that can support it, except your thirst for blood...

 
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KeithDB
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Re: The Death Penalty

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June 1 2009, 8:53 AM 

What you call "blood lust" I call "justice" and I make no apologies for supporting justice.  Let's start with a very simple question.  Do you agree that the person who committed the abortion doctor murder deserves death?  Just answer that question, not whether you want him to die for what ever well intentioned motives you may have.  Just whether he deserves to die. 

From my perspective I am just advocating that these people get what they deserve.  From my perspective anything less is an insult to far greater loss to the victim and his family.  Indeed, lesser punishment would make a mockery of what happened to the victim. 

I suppose I could personalize this by criticizing you for not giving what this person deserves, and so mocking the loss of his life, but I recognize that is not your intent and respect your view as well intentioned.  Please afford me that benefit of the doubt too.

 


 
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Bfgrrn
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Re: The Death Penalty

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June 1 2009, 11:28 AM 

What you call "blood lust" I call "justice" and I make no apologies for supporting justice. Let's start with a very simple question. Do you agree that the person who committed the abortion doctor murder deserves death?

No. Revenge will not bring back Dr. Tiller to his family. A case can be made that execution would be the easy way out for the killer. Life in prison without parole is the proper sentence if found guilty by a jury.

Capital punishment is bankrupting states in America, financially and morally...

Do some research and stop letting your emotional need for blood cloud your judgment.

 
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KeithDB
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Re: The Death Penalty

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June 1 2009, 1:19 PM 

Stating that revenge won't bring the victim back does not answer the question of whether the killer deserves death.  In fact, it suggests precisely why the killer does deserve death.  Obviously, nothing can bring the victim back, and the killer deserve the same finality.

 



"The world is a mess, and I just need to rule it." --Dr. Horrible.

 
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Bfgrrn
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Re: The Death Penalty

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June 1 2009, 2:08 PM 

I gave you my reply...life without parole, NOT execution.

Hey Keith, did it occur to you that executing a person creates another victim family?

California Could Save $1 Billion in 5 Years By Eliminating Death Penalty

Using conservative rough projections, the Commission estimates the annual costs of the present (death penalty) system to be $137 million per year.

The cost of a system which imposes a maximum penalty of lifetime incarceration instead of the death penalty would be $11.5 million per year.


New Study Reveals Maryland Pays $37 Million for One Execution


Florida would save $51 million each year by punishing all first-degree murderers with life in prison without parole


Police Chief Says Death Penalty Hurting Public Safety
Posted: December 22, 2008

Ray Samuels, a police officer for 33 years and Chief of Police in Newark, California, for 5 years, recently expressed concern that state budget cuts will prevent important crime-fighting measures from being passed, while an expensive death penalty continues to drain the state's finances. In an op-ed in the Contra Costa Times, Samuels wrote:
Local jurisdictions are likely to lose a significant amount of state funding this year because of the severe financial crisis. This funding helps cities and counties provide essential services in the areas of public safety, emergency services, and health and children's services. Without it, our communities will no doubt suffer dire consequences. At the same time, we continue to waste hundreds of millions on the state's dysfunctional death penalty. If we replaced the death penalty with a sentence of permanent imprisonment, the state would save more than $125 million each year. We haven't had an execution in California for three years. Are we any less safe as a result? I don't think so.


Chief Samuels also expressed concern that the state refused to pass measures to to help prevent wrongful convictions in death penalty cases because the reforms would be too costly. Because of the risks and costs associated with capital punishment, he recommended that the state turn to to alternative punishments like life without parole: "Let's cut our losses and move on," he wrote. The entire op-ed follows:

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/home

 
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KeithDB
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Re: The Death Penalty

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June 2 2009, 4:06 AM 

That you embrace the next best alternative of life imprison does not alter that the guy deserves death. You still won't square up and actually directly deny that such people deserve to die.

Of course I have considered that execution creates another set of "victims" (that is unless the killer has killed his whole family, which all too often the case). Yes, even Hitler had a mother and a woman who loved him. That would not have prevented me from killing him had I the opportunity.

By that measure, life in prison makes victims out of the perp's family. Whether the perp is executed or held in prison for life the fault of any other victims created by his actions lies with him.

As for the cost, that too is largely irrelevant to me. It'll cost twice as much to keep them in prison for 40 years instead of 20 but you don't accept that as a basis to release him at 20. What matters here is the appropriate administration of justice that is mindful to the ultimate loss suffered by the victim.


"The world is a mess, and I just need to rule it." --Dr. Horrible.

 
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Bfgrrn
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Re: The Death Penalty

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June 2 2009, 4:33 AM 

I am against executing the person that murdered Dr Tillman...is THAT clear enough for you?

HOW do YOU justify JUST ONE innocent person being executed? IF you can get by that, you will prove beyond a shadow of a doubt you are just out for blood, and ANYONE'S blood will do!

IF 133 people were RELEASED from death row since 1973, because evidence proved they were innocent; it stands to reason that SOME innocent people have been executed, or murdered which is really the proper term.

Should someone die for that Keith...a Governor maybe????????????????

Your thirst for blood is clouding your thinking...

The costs of capital punishment vs. life in prison is WAY WAY WAY more...your denial and your ridiculous 40 vs 20 yrs. is very unintelligent on your part...



Recent Cost Studies

* A 2003 legislative audit in Kansas found that the estimated cost of a death penalty case was 70% more than the cost of a comparable non-death penalty case. Death penalty case costs were counted through to execution (median cost $1.26 million). Non-death penalty case costs were counted through to the end of incarceration (median cost $740,000).
(December 2003 Survey by the Kansas Legislative Post Audit)

* In Tennessee, death penalty trials cost an average of 48% more than the average cost of trials in which prosecutors seek life imprisonment.
(2004 Report from Tennessee Comptroller of the Treasury Office of Research)

* In Maryland death penalty cases cost 3 times more than non-death penalty cases, or $3 million for a single case.
(Urban Institute, The Cost of the Death Penalty in Maryland, March 2008)

* In California the current sytem costs $137 million per year; it would cost $11.5 million for a system without the death penalty.
(California Commission for the Fair Administration of Justice, July 2008)

The greatest costs associated with the death penalty occur prior to and during trial, not in post-conviction proceedings. Even if all post-conviction proceedings (appeals) were abolished, the death penalty would still be more expensive than alternative sentences.

* Trials in which the prosecutor is seeking a death sentence have two separate and distinct phases: conviction (guilt/innocence) and sentencing. Special motions and extra time for jury selection typically precede such trials.

* More investigative costs are generally incurred in capital cases, particularly by the prosecution.

* When death penalty trials result in a verdict less than death or are reversed, taxpayers first incur all the extra costs of capital pretrial and trial proceedings and must then also pay either for the cost of incarcerating the prisoner for life or the costs of a retrial (which often leads to a life sentence).

The death penalty diverts resources from genuine crime control measures. Spending money on the death penalty system means:

* Reducing the resources available for crime prevention, mental health treatment, education and rehabilitation, meaningful victims' services, and drug treatment programs.

* Diverting it from existing components of the criminal justice system, such as prosecutions of drug crimes, domestic violence, and child abuse.

http://www.amnestyusa.org/death-penalty/death-penalty-facts/death-penalty-cost/page.do?id=1101084

 
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KeithDB
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Re: The Death Penalty

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June 2 2009, 7:28 AM 

I understand that you oppose executing Dr. Tillman's murderer.  But you appear to oppose it on grounds other than whether he deserves to die. 

I do not "justify" any innocent person being executed anymore than you would justify a guilty person who has not been executed escaping and killing again.  In both cases I suspect that we would strongly support taking those steps necessary and practical to avoid them happening.

 



"The world is a mess, and I just need to rule it." --Dr. Horrible.


    
This message has been edited by KeithDB from IP address 168.215.92.19 on Jun 2, 2009 7:30 AM


 
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Bfgrrn
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Re: The Death Penalty

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June 2 2009, 8:36 AM 

You said:

"In both cases I suspect that we would strongly support taking those steps necessary and practical to avoid them happening."

"strongly support steps"...that's lip service, passing the buck and ignoring the REAL problems Keith. You've skipped straight to what punishment you believe fits the crime, and assume we live in some fairy tale world of good guys win out over bad guys and we always get our man. You invest no thought in the system or process that got someone to the electric chair or lethal injection.

Thomas Jefferson said: "It is more dangerous that even a guilty person should be punished without the forms of law than that he should escape."

Keith...If you are going to continue supporting the death penalty, then you MUST morally justify a case where ONE single innocent human being is put to death in error...

You'll have to find SOME grounds to justify it...OTHERWISE it is premeditated MURDER. And if we follow your logic, someone then must die as payment. Do you understand???

What you seem totally blind to Keith is the FACT that our justice system, from arrest to sentence is fraught with human foible, error and prejudice (not just skin color. i.e. economic)

Judges and District Attorneys are ELECTED officials...they often run on their "tough on crime" record...which MEANS public perception often trumps the truth.

There are numerous cases where a conscientious detective uncovers evidence after someone has been convicted of a crime proving they have the wrong person, only to find themselves being harassed and threatened and told to let it go... DA's and Judges NEVER want to admit they convicted the wrong person...they put themselves, their reputation and their career ahead of justice and truth.

**********

"Twenty years have passed since this Court declared that the death penalty must be imposed fairly, and with reasonable consistency, or not at all, and, despite the effort of the states and courts to devise legal formulas and procedural rules to meet this daunting challenge, the death penalty remains fraught with arbitrariness, discrimination, caprice, and mistake." U.S. Supreme Court Justice Harry A. Blackmun, February 22, 1994


Factors contributing to the arbitrariness of the death penalty:

* Ninety-five percent of death row inmates cannot afford their own attorney. Court-appointed attorneys often lack the experience necessary for capital trials and are overworked and underpaid. In the most extreme cases, some have slept through parts of trials or have arrived under the influence of drugs and/or alcohol.

* Prosecutors seek the death penalty far more frequently when the victim of a homicide is white than when the victim is African-American or of another ethnic/racial origin.

* Co-defendants charged with committing the same crime often receive different punishments, where one defendant may receive a death sentence while another receives prison time.

* Approximately two percent of those convicted of crimes that make them eligible for the death penalty actually receive a death sentence.

* Each prosecutor decides whether or not to seek the death penalty. Local politics, the location of the crime, plea bargaining, and pure chance affect the process and make it a lottery of who lives and who dies.

* GEOGRAPHIC ARBITRARINESS: Since the U.S. Supreme Court reinstated the death penalty in 1976, 80% of all executions have taken place in the South. The Northeast accounts for less than 2% of executions.

http://www.amnestyusa.org/death-penalty/death-penalty-facts/death-penalty-and-arbitrariness/page.do?id=1101083

 
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KeithDB
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Re: The Death Penalty

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June 3 2009, 9:46 AM 

ORK, nobody here is defending this killer.  The dispute here is what punishment is sufficient for him.  Yes, there are some lunatics and trolls on other Boards who defend this assassin, but they are all nutjobs and any sane person understands that. 

Bfgrrn, I don't feel I have morally justify any error anymore than you have to morally justify a murderer sentenced for life who (having nothing at all to lose) kills a guard or escapes and kills again.  Neither are results that either of us seeks. 

Some of your criticisms are not inherent to the death penalty and I think are things that should be changed.  For example, I strongly favor ensuring more competent counsel in death penalty cases, probably through an identified cadre of defense attorney dedicated to such cases and who have proven their competence. 

I will say this, a Constitutional argument against the death penalty is, in my view, frivolous.  The Constitution quite clearly envisions the death penalty as permissible when it sets specific rules for capital cases in the 5th Amendment.  Further, the 5th and 14th statements that life, liberty and properly may not be denied without due process certainly suggests that all three of those things can be denied with due process.

 



"The world is a mess, and I just need to rule it." --Dr. Horrible.

 
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Anonymous
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Re: The Death Penalty

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June 3 2009, 10:30 AM 

Keith

You said:
ORK, nobody here is defending this killer.

No, just YOU defending the state when it kills an innocent person. When THAT happens, it's "oh well, mistakes happen" no one need to DIE as payment....right Keith???

You said:
I strongly favor ensuring more competent counsel in death penalty cases, probably through an identified cadre of defense attorney dedicated to such cases and who have proven their competence.

MORE lip service BS Keith...So NOW the exorbitant cost of capital punishment will severely INCREASE, bankrupting more states, draining vital resources from crime prevention and public protection...

ALL for your thirst for BLOOD

Explain life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness to the family of an innocent person murdered by the state.

It is clear that you didn't read or absorb any of my posts...crystal...

I consider you one of the brighter people from the right, but you just proved NO one from the right is capable of escaping dogma steeped in FEAR

 
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OneRedKansan41
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Re: The Death Penalty

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June 2 2009, 10:52 PM 

Hi name was Dr Tiller

 
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Anonymous
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Re: The Death Penalty

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June 3 2009, 5:15 AM 

Hi name was Dr Tiller


Thanks ORK...I had Tiller in my earlier posts...Tillman might have looked right because of Pat Tillman

 
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Anonymous
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Re: The Death Penalty

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June 6 2009, 8:44 AM 

Wow Keith, your thirst for "punishment" is a glaring sign of an authoritarian follower.

You want MORE people put to death; even though 133 people have been released from death row in 26 states since 1973, because of evidence of their INNOCENCE...


................................................................
In my lifetime I have known 2 people who sat on death row. Both of them were innocent and are now free men.

My first frind when I moved to Arizona in 1972 was John Henry Knapp. He was accused of killing his two little girls in a house fire. Iona was 2, Linda was 3. His kids and my kids were the same age and played together.
John sat on death row for 17 years before new fire science surfaced and the evidence proved the kids were playing with matches. He had nothing to do with the their deaths and was freed from death row.

I worked with Ray Krone, He was convicted of killing a woman bartender and sat on death row for a few years before receiving a new trial taking him off death row, giving him ( I think) life in prison. Many years later DNA evidence proved he was not the killer. He was 100th prisoner to be freed. All together Ray was in prison for 10 years. About 3 or 4 of those years were on death row. All that time he was an innocent man sitting in a 6X9 foot cell.

Had the death sentence been carried out quickly as many people advocate, at least 133 innocent men would have been killed by the state.
What ate the odds to know two men to go to death row and both of them, years later, proved to be innocent?

I used to support the death sentence. Not anymore.

 
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OneRedKansan41
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Re: The Death Penalty

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June 2 2009, 10:51 PM 

I cannot believe that there are idiots out there defending the shooter/scumbag/terrorist.

 
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KeithDB
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Re: The Death Penalty

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June 3 2009, 11:42 AM 

Bfgrrn, let's try to avoid personal attack here.  I respect your view and am responding to it.  It's not a thirst for blood, it's a  thirst for justice.  I strongly feel that death is appropriate for such crimes, a point you still do not directly deny. 

I understand that many principled people of good conscience disagree with my perspective.  I would hope that you would understand that principled people of good conscience can disagree with yours.

"The world is a mess, and I just need to rule it." --Dr. Horrible.



    
This message has been edited by KeithDB from IP address 168.215.92.19 on Jun 3, 2009 11:45 AM


 
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