Meet with others and chat about Saving Private Ryan or anything else that comes to mind. No flaming or spamming will be tolerated. I will delete any and all flame inducing posts. Other than that have as much fun as you want. :)
What Married life is really like...
by Josie
Four married guys went fishing. After an hour, the following conversation
took place:
First guy: "You have no idea what I had to do to be able to come out
fishing this weekend. I had to promise my wife I will paint every room in
the
house next weekend."
Second guy: "That's nothing! I had to promise my wife I'll build her a
new deck for the pool."
Third guy: "Man, you both have it easy! I had to promise my wife that
I'll remodel the kitchen for her."
They continued to fish, until they realized the fourth guy had not said a
word. So they asked him. "You haven't said anything about what you had to do
to be able to come fishing this weekend. What's the deal?"
"I just set my alarm for 5:30 am. When it went off, I shut off the clock,
gave the wife a nudge and said, "Fishing, or Sex?" and she said, "Wear a sweater."
Posted on May 14, 2002, 12:24 PM from IP address 64.12.101.179
Sinbad: AOL through "Research & Learn" section and thereafter under their "Military History Community" also under "War & Espionage" will both link you to the full host of WW2 boards.
You can also put in Keyword: World War 2 as well to reach them.
They have:
ETO (with specific area folders including the Eastfront), PTO (with specific area folders) and other specific sections (examples: Women in WW2, Blacks in WW2, Japanese Interment, Holocaust,etc). If you are not on AOL I don't know if you can reach them but they are worthwhile.
Posted on May 12, 2002, 9:42 AM from IP address 205.188.192.168
...the History Channel has a WWII discussionboard. Haven't been keeping up with it though. They used to do reading groups there. Some knowledgeable people there!
Mike and Steve O. know of other discussion/messageboards. You looking for general discussion?
Posted on May 13, 2002, 7:54 AM from IP address 12.38.33.50
I'm really not looking for a board that zeros in on specifics such as "achtung panzer", which tend to be discussion forums of a technical nature. Just wondering if anyone knows of any good discussion forums of a general nature about WWII. Sounds like it's too bad I don't have AOL, those sound like some good boards JHN mentioned..
Posted on May 13, 2002, 6:11 PM from IP address 12.221.9.43
(URP) - Police warn all male clubbers, party-goers, and unsuspecting pub regulars to be alert and stay cautious when offered a drink from any woman. A new date rape drug on the market, called "beer," is used by females to target unsuspecting men. The drug is generally found in liquid form, and is now available almost anywhere. "Beer" is used by female sexual predators at parties and bars to persuade their male victims to go home and have sex with them. Typically, a woman needs only to persuade a guy to consume a few units of "beer" and then simply ask him home for no-strings-attached sex. Men are rendered helpless against this approach. After several "beers" men will often succumb to desires to perform sexual acts on horrific looking women to whom they would never normally be attracted. After drinking "beer," men often awaken with only hazy memories of exactly what happened to them the night before, often with just a vague feeling that something bad occurred. At other
times these unfortunate men are swindled out of their life's savings in a familiar scam known as "a relationship." Apparently men are much more susceptible to this scam after "beer" is administered and sex is offered by the predatory female.
Please! Forward this warning to every male you know.
However, if you fall victim to this insidious "beer" and the predatory women administering it, there are male support groups with venues in every town where you can discuss the details of your shocking encounter in an open and frank manner with similarly affected, like-minded guys. For the support group nearest you, just look up "Golf Courses" in the yellow pages.
Posted on May 10, 2002, 6:22 AM from IP address 152.163.206.184
I ordered BADFINGER's greatest hits cd from the club I belong to, it was an sale foe 2.99 plus the 2.66 S & H makes for a bargain basement purchase. All my buds are my age so I can't find anyone to tell me if the rest of the cd will be as good as the 4 songs I've heard that I'm buying it for: BABY BLUE, COME AND GET IT, NO MATTER WHAT and DAY AFTER DAY. So good cd, band or not?
Posted on Apr 26, 2002, 11:59 AM from IP address 63.144.121.251
For that film, they did the majority of the soundtrack for the Peter Sellers, Ringo Starr comedy in late 1969. A great Monty Python type film; have not seen it in years. Hopefully the CD you bought has been re-mastered for better sound and less hiss, etc. The songs you listed are some of their main hits and are good songs. Enjoy.
Posted on Apr 26, 2002, 4:57 PM from IP address 152.163.204.176
Badifinger were what the Beatles would have sounded like if they had survived the breakup and lived into the 70's. ALL of their material was good, and most of it great, until Pete Ham and Tom Evans killed themselves. I am sure it would be interesting to hear them play now, as the others were good musicians, but it isn't Badfinger, any more than Thin Lizzy is the same band without Phil Lynott. I'm not sure what is on the "Best Of" offered through the club, but if it is the two volume best of collection sold in stores, then most of the songs are good to great. If you want, there is more info on multiple sites. Here's two of them:
The "official" site, if you like Joey Mollond's name plastered all over everything:
They put out a live album - it may be the BBC one, but I think it is another, that just kicks ass. One of the top ten live rock albums of all time, next to "Flamingo" by The Flamin' Groovies, the Animal's live '63 LP, a Them and Yardbirds live album from about the same time, and The Beatles at the Star and Cavern Club. If you can't find it I'll tape it for you.
I can't tell you how many copies of Badfinger albums I wore out, especially the Magic Christian soundtrack, and album of the same name, which features "Come and Get It (a McCartney tune)," "Dear Angie," "Beautiful and Blue," "Rock of All Ages," and the hauntingly beautiful anthem "Carry On Till Tomorrow." This stuff got me through an angry and confused adolescence. Who says music doesn't change reality?
Anyway, check out the sites and enjoy the music.
Posted on Apr 26, 2002, 6:28 PM from IP address 128.97.106.67
I always liked the four tunes that I heard on the "classic rock" radio station in my town. My brother who is your age (I assume) 46-47, never really got into them. He loved the Beatles and The Who. I remember the LP's he had when I was a kid. All the Beatles, JC Superstar, Zep, Who, Three Dog Night and Blood, Sweat and Tears. He had others as well, just can't think of them. The TDN LP I remember always seeing in his room was the one with the wolf skull on it (?) I think it was a wolf skull. I am looking forward to this CD.
The last time I took a cd from a band based on rep alone was BIG STAR. I was thoroughly bored by it. I boaght that because of a Scottish band called TEENAGE FANCLUB whose 1992 BANDWAGONESQUE is one of the greatest pieces of rock of the 90's. They supposedly were heavily influenced by Big Star and the REPLACEMENTS. If anyone like those 2 pick up a copy of BANDWAGONESQUE. NAV, thanks for the tape offer I take you up on it if BF blows me away. I could just run to the local Exclusive Company for the cd but 5 bucks is 5 bucks!!!
Posted on Apr 28, 2002, 10:26 AM from IP address 65.31.93.201
I liked The Beatles, Who, and Zep, and JC Superstar. Couldn't stand Three Dog Night, except for "Liar" and "Mama Told Me Not To Come," and they did a reasonably competent version of The Youngblood's "Sunlight," although I prefer their version. Songs that made me retch were "Black and White," "Family of Man," and "Old Fashion Love Song," penned by non other than Paul Williams! ACK! I don't recall a wolf skull on any of their LP's, but then, I never paid much attention to them, but remember it was usually a picture of them on the cover, rather than artwork.
Also couldn't stand Blood, Sweat and Tears - same sort of thing, along with Chicago. To deep and real for me! LOL! Hope I didn't slag two bands you really like! One man's trash is another's treasure, as they say.
Well, I was and am a big fan of Big Star, but I would only recommend their first album to most people, called "Number 1 Record." It has all the hits on it, including the Bangles covered "September Gurls" and the song that was reworked by Cheap Trick and used as the theme for That 70's Show; "In The Street." Some of their stuff takes some getting used to in order to see what Chilton is doing. There have been songs I didn't really like until one day I was listening to them and WHAMMO! Brilliant! Give 'em another try, Carlos, or maybe several! Their songs don't always rock, but they are evocative and the lyrics meaningful (in a good way, that is!) They sort of started the retro movement back to a 60's pop sound that so many other bands have followed in the footsteps of, including one of my all time greatest bands, The Flamin' Groovies, and of course, much later on and a whole 80's garage/powerpop/psych movement later, Teenage Fanclub, who have put out one terrific album after another.
Hope you like Badfinger. Like The Beatles and Big Star, they write rockers and extremely personal songs. And I agree, the cheaper the better.
Posted on Apr 28, 2002, 2:13 PM from IP address 164.67.22.163
The cd I ordered by the way is the 21 track 1995 release THE VERY BEST OF BANDFINGER.
here is the track list.
1. Come and Get It (Paul McCartney)
2. Maybe Tomorrow (Tom Evans)
3. Rock of All Ages (Tom Evans/Pete Ham/Mike Gibbins)
4. Dear Angie (Ron Griffiths)
5. Carry On Till Tomorrow (Tom Evans/Pete Ham)
6. No Matter What (Pete Ham)
7. Believe Me (Tom Evans)
8. Midnight Caller (Pete Ham)
9. Better Days (Tom Evans/Joey Molland)
10. Without You (Tom Evans/Pete Ham)
11. Take It All (Pete Ham)
12. Money (Tom Evans)
13. Flying (Tom Evans/Joey Molland)
14. The Name of the Game (Pete Ham)
15. Suitcase (Joey Molland)
16. Day After Day (Pete Ham)
17. Baby Blue (U.S. Single Mix) (Pete Ham)
18. When I Say (Tom Evans)
19. Icicles (Joey Molland)
20. I Can Love You (Joey Molland)
21. Apple of My Eye (Pete Ham)
Track 1 Produced and Arranged by Paul McCartney
Tracks 2-4 Produced and Arranged by Tony Visconti
Tracks 5-7 Produced by Mal Evans
Tracks 8-10 Produced by Geoff Emerick
Tracks 11-13, 17 & 20 Produced by Todd Rundgren
Tracks 18, 19 & 21 Produced by Chris Thomas and Badfinger
Posted on Apr 28, 2002, 11:18 AM from IP address 65.31.93.201
Yeah, this is the first greatest hits package, and a good one. Songs on here that are outstanding are:
#'s 1-7, 10, 12, 16, and 17. And those are just the ones I can recall flawlessly. One of the things I liked about their greatest hits comps was that they had songs not normally on these sort of things, like "Believe Me," a venomous missive to a girlfriend by someone who is obviously hurting. Lyrics worthy of Lennon. This is some of their greatest, but by far not all of it. Lemme know what you think. S'cool if you're not into it - everyone's tastes are different. I think if you like Teenage Fanclub or The Beatles you'll like Badfinger, though. They're sort of the missing link.
Posted on Apr 28, 2002, 2:22 PM from IP address 164.67.22.163
JM, Here all these years I thought no one else ever saw and enjoyed that one! I saw it too in '69, a few weeks after high school graduation in Wyoming.
That scene where Sellers and Starr filled the pool in London with sewage, tossed in all the money and watched Police, professors, nannies and whoever else walked by wade in, to the tune of,"If You Want It, Here It Is", was hilarious. (Hope I remember it right.)
That on's worth four , and another
Posted on Apr 26, 2002, 6:56 PM from IP address 152.163.201.188
Is a favorite of mine, and Egil's, as well. We saw it in the tenth grade, although I had seen it a year before that with another friend. Actually, the scene you are refering to was underscored by one of the only non-Badfinger tunes in the movie, "Something In The Air," by Thunderclap Newman. Great song, and great scene.
I have so many moments I like in that movie I couldn't boil them all down to a few scenes, I remember howling through the duck hunt with the anti-aircraft guns, or the scene where Yul Brynner, made up in drag, is singing to the man in the bar, then whips his wig off. Another awesome scene is Christopher Lee walking down the Magic Christian's corridor in his dracula cape, or the old man's tirade about the "heather devil-wog hemp!" Black comedy at its greatest.
Posted on Apr 28, 2002, 1:50 PM from IP address 164.67.22.163
A buddy of mine was talking the other day about his Grandpas stories, he mentioned that he was U.S infantry and got wounded during WWII. As he has since passed on, and my good friend didnt really know much about his service history other than a few fragments of stories. I was wondering if there was any way he could get access to those records? I tired a search for him on the plain internet and came up with him as being the Commander of the Combat Infantry Assoc. in 1994, dont know if its the same Robert H. Meuser or not, but so far this is the only info ive found for him....
Any help you guys could give me in pointing me in the right direction would be awesome!
Thanks!
Marcus
Posted on May 1, 2002, 4:09 PM from IP address 64.230.198.89
watching X-Files? They killed off the Lone Gunmen, Spender came back frm the dead and Scully thought it was Mulder, and then she gave up her baby for adoption to protect it. The curve balls are flying fast and thick here three episodes before the end of the show.
Posted on May 2, 2002, 10:25 PM from IP address 128.97.106.67
I havent seen an episode for a long time, and believe it or not, I dont even know what happened to Mulder last season! Im not going to watch it now, cause i think ive missed too much to really get into it- just gonna wait till it gets to DVD or something... Its killing me now, all these big developments- and im not even watching it- lol!!
Posted on May 3, 2002, 2:11 PM from IP address 64.230.196.171
...watch the last three you won't be any more confused than the rest of us! LOL!
The Lone Gunmen went out (conveniently) like hereos. They were chasing a terrorist through an underground corridor who had enough biochemicals in him to kill tens of thousands. It was in his body in a shark cartilidge that was set to degrade at a certain time, killing the man and releasing the stuff into the atmosphere. At about one minute till it was set to release he stopped running and said to them "What are you going to do about it?" They yanked a pull station that released two metal doors, one behind and one in front of them, trapping them and the man inside a "sealed" chamber. How they knew those doors were where they were I don't know, but that was the premise. The big dumb lumox and the British chick who was on their series tried to open the door, but they told them no, that it would release the toxins.
They were buried at Arlington, after considerable string pulling. Skinner said it was the least they could do. Scully said something about hoping they knew how much they meant to her, etc. And that was it.
Posted on May 3, 2002, 7:58 PM from IP address 128.97.106.67
Any thoughts on BOB? Have you seen them all yet? I just got your message in yahoo, for some reason it was not delivered until a day ago. Glad you got them okay, what's your favorite parts so far?
Posted on May 2, 2002, 3:36 PM from IP address 208.23.105.1
The PLATOON DVD has a great 2 hour long or so Documentary called "Tour of the Inferno", has anyone seen this? if so, did anybody think that Ted C. McGinley is slightly wierd? I did. It was cool too that Dale Dye was interviewed for the doc and talked about the 2 week "boot camp". The other priciple actors: Depp, Berenger, DaFoe, Whittaker, McGinley, Sheen and the director talked about Dye's training regemin it made me think what the actors from BOB and SPR had to endure. They went right into shooting the film after the bootcamp ended. That gave the soldier/actors thier haggard, tired look. The DVD also has a slide show. I still as of yet havent watched the movie. Its been like 10 years since I watched it from beginning to end.
Posted on May 2, 2002, 6:21 PM from IP address 65.31.93.201
<<On April 29, 1945, the U.S. Seventh Army's 45th Infantry Division liberates Dachau, the first concentration camp established by Germany's Nazi regime. A major Dachau subcamp was liberated the same day by the 42nd Rainbow Division.
Established five weeks after Adolf Hitler took power as German chancellor in 1933, Dachau was situated on the outskirts of the town of Dachau, about 10 miles northwest of Munich. During its first year, the camp held about 5,000 political prisoners, consisting primarily of German communists, Social Democrats, and other political opponents of the Nazi regime. During the next few years, the number of prisoners grew dramatically, and other groups were interned at Dachau, including Jehovah's Witnesses, Gypsies, homosexuals, and repeat criminals. Beginning in 1938, Jews began to comprise a major portion of camp internees.
Prisoners at Dachau were used as forced laborers, initially in the construction and expansion of the camp and later for German armaments production. The camp served as the training center for SS concentration camp guards and was a model for other Nazi concentration camps. Dachau was also the first Nazi camp to use prisoners as human guinea pigs in medical experiments. At Dachau, Nazi scientists tested the effects of freezing and changes to atmospheric pressure on inmates, infected them with malaria and tuberculosis and treated them with experimental drugs, and forced them to test methods of making seawater potable and of halting excessive bleeding. Hundreds of prisoners died or were crippled as a result of these experiments.
Thousands of inmates died or were executed at Dachau, and thousands more were transferred to a Nazi extermination center near Linz, Austria, when they became too sick or weak to work. In 1944, to increase war production, the main camp was supplemented by dozens of satellite camps established near armaments factories in southern Germany and Austria. These camps were administered by the main camp and collectively called Dachau.
With the advance of Allied forces against Germany in April 1945, the Germans transferred prisoners from concentration camps near the front to Dachau, leading to a general deterioration of conditions and typhus epidemics. On April 27, 1945, approximately 7,000 prisoners, mostly Jews, were forced to begin a death march from Dachau to Tegernsee, far to the south. The next day, many of the SS guards abandoned the camp. On April 29, the Dachau main camp was liberated by units of the 45th Infantry after a brief battle with the camp's remaining guards.
As they neared the camp, the Americans found more than 30 railroad cars filled with bodies in various states of decomposition. Inside the camp there were more bodies and 30,000 survivors, most severely emaciated. Some of the American troops who liberated Dachau were so appalled by conditions at the camp that they machine-gunned at least two groups of captured German guards. It is officially reported that 30 SS guards were killed in this fashion, but conspiracy theorists have alleged that more than 10 times that number were executed by the American liberators. The German citizens of the town of Dachau were later forced to bury the 9,000 dead inmates found at the camp.
In the course of Dachau's history, at least 160,000 prisoners passed through the main camp, and 90,000 through the subcamps. Incomplete records indicate that at least 32,000 of the inmates perished at Dachau and its subcamps, but countless more were shipped to extermination camps elsewhere.>>
Posted on Apr 29, 2002, 9:35 AM from IP address 12.38.33.50
mini-camps within a few miles of Dachau. Used primarliy for execution of eastern POW's. The small scale type of camp seen in BoB was common to the countryside.
Posted on Apr 30, 2002, 5:32 AM from IP address 209.98.173.173
Here is an interesting story about Dachau. It also includes a link (on the left margin of the 'Dachau' story) of the U.S. Army's offcial transcript of the investigation of the shooting of camp guards by the 45th 'Thunderbird' Division.
To the best of my knowledge the 42nd 'Rainbow' Division, which also liberated Dachau, was not involved.
This is easily the best book I have ever read about Vietnam. It details the life of LRRP's and is written by Larry Chambers. It is called "Death in the a shau valley", and it is characterized by excellent writing. The author earned a Masters degree after the war and can truly write a good book.
Thanks, Sinbad. I like finding out what really happened in those high school days
by Jhn
And that sure looks like there's a lot to learn. The reference I found to the A Shau valley was in Nelson DeMille's novel, Up Country. I haven't realized the significance of places like that, Cu Chi, or the many others. Tom can tell us more about Chu Lai if he cares to some time, where he was stationed. That was an important one too, apparently.
Those places where our guys fought and died almost for nothing are becoming more clear as the years go by.
(I'm looking forward to getting home next week from here in Maryland. These guys pulled some minor surgery on my arm out of a hat and it's an annoyance to type on this laptop.)
Posted on May 1, 2002, 5:19 AM from IP address 152.163.194.197
Because StuG Abt came under Infantry Arty command, until TO&E changes in 1942. Even after that, some unit kept their "greys" in pride, until the end of the war.
Just a reminder, StuG units accounted for nearly 20,000 tank kills on the Eastern Front---almost double that of the WH and W-SS PanzerTruppen .
Posted on Apr 28, 2002, 9:47 PM from IP address 24.205.20.241
What colour piping is he wearing? If he is sturmartillerie, he is not a tanker - thus he is in red piping.
Panzerjaeger crews, however, wore both black and grey AFV suits, and retained pink piping and P cyphers throughout the war. He would be more likely to be considered a "tanker" than a StuG crewman, who wore red piping as for artillery (and often wore red piped litzen (or universal grey litzen) rather than skull and piped rectangular patches (or red piped rectangular patches without skulls).
Panzerjaeger, on the other hand, wore black patches with pink piping, sometimes with skulls, sometimes without.
So I would say, given the wording of the original question, he was more likely to be a self-propelled anti-tank crewman than a StuG crewman, as the red piping would not indicate him as a "tanker", nor would he be entitled to the black uniform as panzerjaeger apparently were.
Posted on Apr 28, 2002, 11:14 PM from IP address 24.71.223.142
>So I would say, given the wording of the original question, he was more likely to be a self-propelled anti-tank crewman than a StuG crewman>Mikey>
Four StuG batteries (attached to the infantry and acting as mobile artillery) took part in the "Invasion of the Low Countries" (France, etc.). Later, after the Invasion of Russia their numbers and role increased.
They (StuGs) acted as anti-tank killers, along with the continued role of infantry support and mobile arty. Some elite units had their own zugs. The Esprit de corps was very high in the Assault Gun crews and many considered themselves as elite as the other Panzer units (of the Heer or Waffen-SS). And crews did wear Gray uniforms. What further do you recall, Mikey & Steve O.??
Posted on Apr 30, 2002, 5:02 PM from IP address 152.163.195.182
When I worked at the book, video store someone brought one back saying it was defective. I had to watch it for the defect part and it was really stupid, it looked fake to me. And they aren't people dying, they are no worse than the show "Real Video" or whatever it's called. The worse thing I saw, not on the death series, was that poor woman being hit by a train, now that was the worst thing I've ever seen on tape. on the tape I did see, a man swallowed a razor blade and lived. Another man let a truck drive over his big beer belly and he broke bones, but he lived. Another woman was zapped by a prisoner with a stun gun in a prison and she lived. That's about all I could sit through, the tape was fine so I took it out and put it back on the shelf.
Posted on Apr 26, 2002, 11:43 AM from IP address 216.96.43.200
If I broke down and watched these I would probably be unable to tear myself away, being human, we are all fascinated with our utimate demise. I love horror films and splatter movies because it is fake. I'm not into real death or injury scenes, not out of squeamishness (i've seen my share of blood), but because it feels creepy to sit around and watch people die. Maybe reality holds to much of this as it is. If others enjoy this, cool, not for me.
Posted on Apr 26, 2002, 6:38 PM from IP address 128.97.106.67
80 Raiders flew into history; now, 60 years later, 23 survive
By JEFF WILKINSON
Copyright 2002 The (Columbia, S.C.) State COLUMBIA, S.C. --
In 1946, Jimmy Doolittle kept a promise.
In a downtown Miami hotel, Doolittle threw a party for the veteran fliers he had led in a bombing raid over Tokyo.
Each year since, the Raiders have met in a different city to tell the old stories and remember those no longer with them.
Like the 50th reunion, last week's 60th meeting was here. It could be their last.
Columbia is important to the men: It was here, at the old Columbia Army Air Base (now the Columbia Metropolitan Airport), where they volunteered for their historic mission.
The reunions today are mostly lighthearted and fun. The Raiders are a family. As with any family gathering, the reunion is a time to take pictures, share a meal and catch up with friends.
But the reunion has a central, sacred event.
In 1959, the city of Tucson, Ariz., presented the Raiders with a chest containing 80 silver goblets, one for each man on the mission.
In a small, closed meeting each year, the Raiders toast comrades who have died since their latest reunion. They turn the goblets of their departed friends upside down.
When only two Raiders remain, they will open a bottle of cognac corked in 1896 -- the year Doolittle was born -- and lift the final toast.
Twenty-three Raiders survive. Each man is in his 80s, and travel has become difficult. Whether the formal reunions will continue is unclear.
What endures is the contribution the Raiders made to the country. They lifted American fighting spirit when it was at its lowest ebb, giving the country hope for the long struggle ahead.
On April 18, 1942, the USS Hornet steamed into the teeth of a 25-knot gale. Cascades of spray drenched the carrier as it crashed through 30-foot Pacific waves.
Driving rain streaked the column of bombers lashed to the deck of the Hornet. The planes were too large to be tucked below.
The Army's land-based B-25 "Mitchells" were much larger than carrier-based Navy bombers. They could fly 2,000 miles without refueling.
That April morning was "white-knuckle time" for the Army fliers on board. They were about to launch earlier than planned to fly to Japan and bomb Tokyo.
The raid was America's chance to strike back after the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor four months before. American morale, and perhaps the progress of the war, would rise or fall on the courage of these young fliers.
For many of the 80 men, the raid would be the high point of their lives. For some, the mission would be their last act on Earth.
Horace "Sally" Crouch, a fiery Citadel graduate from Columbia, would come face to face with two Japanese Zeros and live to tell about it.
David Thatcher, a soft-spoken 20-year-old from Absarokee, Mont., would help save the lives of his shattered crew and become an unlikely celebrity.
Tung Sheng Liu, a 24-year-old engineer from Kunming, China, would risk his life to save a group of American fliers, then eventually migrate to the United States and work for the Air Force. He would be named an honorary Raider.
Nolan Herndon of Edgefield, S.C., would spend a year as a "guest" of the Russians,
Jake DeShazer, a corporal from Oregon, would be captured and suffer for 40 months in a Japanese prison camp. He would return to Japan after the war and serve the next 30 years as a missionary there.
Davy Jones, a squadron commander from Tucson, would survive the Tokyo Raid only to be shot down over North Africa. He would become one of the "tunnel kings" made famous in the movie The Great Escape.
And William Farrow, a devout and ambitious young man from Darlington, S.C., would be executed by the Japanese. His rules for life would become a rallying point for a nation at war.
Despite their youth, the Raiders at the onset of war were not fresh-faced recruits. They were career aviators, many well into their 20s, who had joined the service when the war was an ominous rumble in Europe.
"We were the old `fly boys' of the peacetime Air Force," says Crouch, the navigator, bombardier and gunner on Plane No. 10.
The men were outraged when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor on Dec. 7, 1941. And they were eager to strike back.
When it was announced that the famous aviator Jimmy Doolittle was to lead a "dangerous mission overseas," the men had scrambled to join up.
The Raiders had no clue their objective would be Tokyo. It didn't matter. They just wanted to fight.
When the target was revealed on the Hornet two days out from San Francisco Bay, they were jubilant.
Travis Hoover of Joplin, Mo., was the pilot of Plane No. 2.
When the announcement blared over the Hornet's loudspeakers, he recalls, "all the sailors broke loose cheering, and so did our crews."
At the time, the United States was reeling from the surprise attack on Pearl Harbor, which destroyed much of the U.S. Pacific fleet. In the weeks that followed, U.S. and British troops were being routed from their bases throughout the Pacific. The future looked bleak.
"The Japanese were marauding all over and heading for Australia," says Carroll Glines, the Raiders' official historian and author of 35 books on aviation history. "We had nothing but bad news between Dec. 7 and the time of the (Doolittle) raid."
The Raiders changed the tenor of the war in the Pacific.
No one had ever launched a land-based, medium-range bomber from an aircraft carrier in combat.
The B-25 was designed to take off from 5,000-foot runways at 90 mph. The Raiders would take off from a 500-foot flight deck at 50 mph.
The technique had been tested twice, weeks before off the Virginia coast.
But the test planes hadn't been armed with 2,000 pounds of bombs. They hadn't carried 1,000 extra pounds of fuel. And they hadn't flown during a raging storm in the Pacific.
No one in the 16-plane flight group knew whether the planes could get off the Hornet deck, much less complete their mission.
Once airborne, the men were to fly 400 miles over open water to Tokyo, penetrate a gantlet of air defenses over Japan to deliver their bombs, cross the China Sea and land at secret airstrips in Japanese-occupied China.
"It sounded reasonable at the time," Herndon quips.
The Japanese thought an attack on their homeland from sea was impossible. That's why President Franklin Roosevelt resolved to try it. After the raid, Roosevelt said the planes came from the mythical land of Shangri-La.
Only the leaders of a desperate nation at a desperate time could devise such a raid. But despite the long odds, the Raiders believed they would accomplish the mission.
But most important, the men believed in their leader, Lt. Col. Jimmy Doolittle.
Doolittle, 45, was a legendary flier, holder of a string of speed records and many firsts in aviation history.
"Young guys like us would go to hell and back for him," Herndon says. "And we did."
On the morning of April 18, with a storm around them, the Raiders faced more obstacles. A Japanese trawler set out as an early-warning defense sighted the lead ships in the flotilla. Military officials decided to launch ahead of schedule and farther from Japan than planned. Adm. William Halsey, remembering the damage Japanese fighter planes did to the fleet at Pearl Harbor, was in no mood to push his luck.
"Navy got jittery and booted us off 10 hours too early," pilot Jones wrote in his diary that day. "Short about 150 gal. gas. 810 miles to Tokio -- guys all knew we couldn't make it. Oh well."
The wind howled over the Hornet's deck as the carrier fought through the rough seas. Crewmen preparing the planes for launch clutched at anything within reach. One by one, the planes lifted from the deck, circled the battle group and flew off toward targets in Tokyo, Yokohama, Nagoya, Osaka and Kobe.
Posted on Apr 23, 2002, 7:04 PM from IP address 205.188.199.36
Due to an amazing amount of email I received yesterday, many of them with multiple attachments, schedules, and pictures, etc., my inbox is now officially maxed out. To anyone who emails me; don't. Unless it is an emergency - I can still read 'em, I just can't reply. Unfortunately, I may not have the time to clean all this out until Monday. I'll post when that has happened. Thanks in advance for the lectures about not deleting, but save them.
Posted on Apr 19, 2002, 12:43 PM from IP address 164.67.27.16
...I wasn't aware of your email address,I didnt think you had one, anyway, Im sorry I dont get on the puter much anymore, not that you guys would miss me much, Im restricted when it comes to availability. But since I had those troublesome woes of last year, I have fallen in love, fallen out of love, and stoped the suicidal thoughts that once inhabited my mind.... I think Im actually happy!! Well yay for the world hey! talk to you again..... Ice ;]
Posted on Apr 23, 2002, 6:04 AM from IP address 203.45.245.201
...we enjoy your input here and are always glad to see you when you post. I'm happy to hear you are in a better frame of mind, now, Ice. One of life's lessons is that everything changes. I know the sense of immediacy that young people have - I remember it myself - but the ones who hang in there usually make it through the bad times. "Rites of passage" is what other cultures call it. Sounds like you have passed through, and I'm glad to hear it! Yay for the world indeed because it's always a better place with you in it. When I was a teenager I played around with the idea of suicide once, but I'm just not the kind of person who can seriously consider it. Even with all its problems, life is to interesting to part with, and once you do, it's gone forever. No second chances, no seeing your family or friends again, no nothing. Void. If it's a release, you'll never know it. That's my view, anyway.
So congratulations and wait - you'll fall in love again, maybe a few times. Each experience is great or terrible and you learn from it. Just keep your head and don't get to cynical. Like me. There - is that enough B.S. for today? And keep posting!
Posted on Apr 23, 2002, 4:57 PM from IP address 128.97.106.67
I resemble those remarks! You must have REALLY gone through the emails! LOL! Glad your back...with an empty In box...and a home addy I presume....tee hee
Posted on Apr 23, 2002, 10:36 AM from IP address 152.163.206.178
Of the current war movies(or related) that have been released lately, besides BLACK HAWK DOWN and WE WERE SOLDIERS; which are already pre-budgeted to my wish list at Columbia's DVD club by the way; would you say are worthy of purchase on DVD for future reference.
THE CASTLE
SPYGAME
CAPTAIN CORELLI'S MANDOLIN
BEHIND ENEMY LINES
HART'S WAR
I haven't seen these yet. Are they worth it? Last theatrical movie I saw was SHOWTIME (stinker). Most recent DVD purchases were DINER, EL MARIACHI, DESPERADO and BUTCH CASSIDY and THE SUNDANCE KID.
Posted on Apr 21, 2002, 10:03 AM from IP address 63.144.121.251
...and I guess it just depends on the kind of movies you like. I wouldn't consider any of these "war" movies like Black Hawk Down or We Were Soldiers. Captain Corelli's and Hart's War are set during times of war.
Spygame is a CIA story but there's a pretty cool rescue in it. There was a big debate on a BHD board about the equipment used being realistic but as someone pointed out in CIA ops, plausible deniability is important.
Behind Enemy Lines is just a "rah-rah" movie where Owen Wilson the the champ of all time of SERE school. A real stretch of reality where the good guys come to the rescue at the end.
Captain Corelli's is a beautifully filmed movie. Don Madden did it - Shakespeare in Love. But it's more the story of the island and its people and what happens during WW2. I wish they would have focused a little bit more on the actions of the Italian Army when its German "allies" turned on them. Military part is in the last part of the film. Loved John Hurt in this. (the island doctor) The whole Christian Bale-Penelope Cruz relationship...well, ick!
Hart's War - is more of a prison escape movie with trial as distraction to what's happening. Some cool P-51 stuff - briefly.
I think you mean The Last Castle. I didn't see it in the theatre but rented it recently. Set in a military prison, it's a clash of leadership between Gandolfini and Redford. Some good stuff but it's also McGiver'ish at times and has some Cool Hand Luke moments - Redford moving rocks instead of Newman eating eggs. lol
Anyway....some of my thoughts...
Posted on Apr 22, 2002, 8:11 AM from IP address 12.38.33.50
I would definitely recommend renting "Behind Enemy Lines". It has an incredibly cheesy ending, but so what? It only last for 5 minutes. The rest of the movie is very entertaining, and some of the scenes are very craftily shot. It should definitely keep your attention and make you forget whatever was on your mind when you started watching it.
The truth is, only certain movies will I spend money on. Most are barely worth renting. At least "B.E.L." is worth renting. Buying it would be a stretch.
Posted on Apr 22, 2002, 6:30 PM from IP address 12.221.9.43
So BEL is in the U-571 category of action flicks with suspense aka DIE HARD. I own U-571 on DVD fairly good movie. Great special features. I Like playing the scene where Jon Bon Jovi gets wacked with the hatch over and over again in freeze frame for my wife to squirm over (she likes Bon Jovi). Guess I will go rent some of these instead.
Posted on Apr 22, 2002, 10:33 PM from IP address 63.144.121.251
I liked The Last Castle. It was a lot like Shawshank Redemption, although Gandolfini started out with a good performance but got pretty unbelievable halfway through. Spygame was excellent. Sort of a cat and mouse type of film.Very smart movie. Redford and Pitt both played macho characters with a sense of humor. It still amazes me that Redford can pull off these roles. It seems that he and Sean Connery are ageless. CCM was more of a love story but the cinematography alone makes this flick worth watching. Hart's War was decent. I would describe it as a cross between Hogan's Heroes and A Few Good Men. Behind Enemy Lines was tense. I had a headache after watching it. It was pretty unbelievable too. Owen Wilson dodged more bullets than Superman, although I was rooting for him to make it out of there.
Posted on Apr 22, 2002, 7:22 PM from IP address 216.40.160.116
I finally got the shirt on ebay and what a waste of time that was. Someone else had one listed on there right before me and his is stamped and a lot cheaper, so I guess I wasted my time and money. Oh BTW, ebay is a rip off, they charged me 1.10 just to list it! It used to be 30 cents. And now they get like 7% of what I earn. And they dropped the photo adding option, so I had to go into my webpage and create a page to list the picture on. As you can probably tell, I'm extremely disappointed with the whole mess.
If anyone would like to bid on it, you have to use the number since the actual listing doesn't show up when you type in Saving Private Ryan Shirt. This is the last time I will be using ebay to sell anything, I wasted several hours to list it and hours after I posted it there is still no listing for it. Anyway, the number is 1532175416 if anyone would like to take a look.
Posted on Apr 20, 2002, 8:53 PM from IP address 216.96.43.215
....do you say "Ship to US only" in your auction? Other sellers have done that as well, and when I express irritation at having to get it sent to a PO Box in the States, they say "Oh, I do ship to Canada."
???????
Posted on Apr 21, 2002, 10:06 PM from IP address 24.71.223.142
for me it's the &%*$(#*% form they make us fill out now, it's a mile long and filled with tons of ways for ebay to sneak in and take money from us. I never see the button to push for choosing where to ship. I always get so caught up in trying to get around the pay things that I forget to look for it. So I figure we all have to mess with that. Like I said, ebay is a rip off(for sellers anyway).
Posted on Apr 22, 2002, 9:09 PM from IP address 216.96.43.142
<<In the Dallas Morning News, yesterday, 20 April 2002, was the obituary for Wilbur Butcher "Spider" Webb, who died April 9th. The obit carried the story of his most famous exploit near Orote peninsula on Guam in 1944, when he took on 50 Japanese aircraft as they were landing. He also was a OS2U pilot on the USS Oklahoma during the attack on Pearl Harbor.
I recall being introduced to Spider Webb by my late friend [and author], Jay Frank Dial, and then telling Spider about another friend, Zenji Abe...who attacked USS Raliegh at Pearl Harbor and whose dive bomber unit was trying to land at an airfield at Orote peninsula on Guam...
That day at Guam, Spider in his F6F "Hellcat" fighter was circling a downed American pilot. Spider had dropped his gear and flaps to be slower while he tried to get his life raft from under his seat. At that moment, he looked up to see the host of Japanese planes. Spider screamed those famous words, "Help! I've got fifty Zeros surrounded." Getting his throttle, flaps, and gear to a combat position, he began to "walk up" the formation of landing planes. Zenji Abe left the scene to land at Rota, but that day was Abe's last combat as that island was cut off and by-passed.
Zenji Abe and Spider Web finally met at the Admiral Nimitz Museum at a symposium a just a few years ago.
A fond "Cheers" to an old acquaintance,
David Aiken>>
Posted on Apr 22, 2002, 7:17 AM from IP address 12.38.33.50
...the complete story from the Dallas Morning News...
<<Wilbur Butcher "Spider" Webb: WWII vet who knew how to handle tough situations
04/19/2002
By JOE SIMNACHER / The Dallas Morning News
Wilbur Butcher "Spider" Webb found himself in many dangerous situations during his lifetime. He always seemed to come through heroically.
The heavily decorated World War II Navy fighter pilot died April 9 of lung and liver cancer at his North Richland Hills home. Services were April 12 in Colleyville. Mr. Webb, 81, was buried in Bluebonnet Hills Memorial Park in Colleyville.
"He was definitely the stuff that heroes are made of," said his son, Lee Webb of Haltom City.
The elder Mr. Webb was born in Ardmore, Okla., where he graduated from high school. He joined the Navy in 1938 and was on the USS Oklahoma on Dec. 7, 1941, when it was attacked in Pearl Harbor. He was writing a letter to his wife when the bombing started. He dived out of a porthole of the sinking ship and started rescuing others, his son said.
During World War II, the young sailor became a rear-seat gunner for aircraft in the Pacific. He later trained as a fighter pilot in the United States and picked up "Spider" as his pilot's handle.
In December 1943, he was assigned to the USS Hornet as an F6F Hellcat pilot. On June 19, 1944, Mr. Webb had just completed two bombing runs over Japanese installations on Guam when he spotted a downed American plane. While circling to assist the downed pilot, Mr. Webb spotted 40 Japanese fighters in formation to land.
He radioed in: "Any American fighter near Orote Peninsula, I have 40 ... planes surrounded and need a little help."
Mr. Webb swooped down, attacking from the rear. He shot down five enemy aircraft before help arrived. During the ensuing battle, he shot down one more plane and was credited with two probable kills. His plane had 147 bullet holes when he landed.
For his efforts, Mr. Webb received the Navy Cross, the Distinguished Flying Cross with one gold star and the Air Medal with eight gold stars. The Hornet crew received the Presidential Unit Citation for its fighting.
Mr. Webb was nominated three times for the Medal of Honor for that battle. The nominations were never acted upon.
From 1945 to 1958, Mr. Webb was stationed in Dallas at the Naval Air Station. He once swam across a channel of Mountain Creek Lake to rescue a Corsair pilot whose plane had flipped after sliding off a runway. He was freeing the pilot when rescuers arrived.
Another time he was rolling barrels of petroleum away from flames at a base fuel-depot fire when firefighters arrived.
In April 1947, Mr. Webb was among the first to arrive after a Texas City explosion aboard a French freighter loaded with ammonium nitrate fertilizer. Fire spread, triggering another explosion of a nearby ship as the Naval Air Station crew approached. Nearly 600 people were killed and 5,000 were injured or left homeless.
Mr. Webb retired from the Navy in 1958 as a lieutenant junior grade.
He spent another 20 years in the aerospace industry. He was with the various companies then known as LTV Corp., which is now Vought Aircraft Industries Inc. In 1972, he joined Northrop Corp., now Northrop Grumman Corp., where he taught pilots in Saudi Arabia. He retired in 1978.
In addition to his son, Mr. Webb is survived by his wife, Clio Pace Webb of North Richland Hills; a daughter, Kathryn Webb of North Richland Hills; three grandchildren; and two great-grandchildren.
But not all of the sons (in the letter by Abraham Lincon) were killed. I forget their names. Anyway, it's said SPR flunked Civil War history. If you think Steven Speilberg and crew had egg on their face; imagine how Abraham Lincoln felt!
Posted on Apr 20, 2002, 8:40 PM from IP address 64.66.199.134
...I had just read The Tunnels of Cu Chi shortly before going to see Platoon. I was petrified during that entire sequence waiting for various booby traps.
Posted on Apr 9, 2002, 7:00 PM from IP address 12.38.33.50
Thats the way its supposed to be done lol
normally you just roll a few tear gas grenades in, then they come running out. if yourse lucky you throw in a frag grenade and hopefull hit something explosive or flammable i.e. ammo storage
Posted on Apr 20, 2002, 3:46 PM from IP address 210.49.20.31
( New River's where my Jamie's stationed - and even though I know he's actually sitting up in an ATC tower there right now, news like this still always gets me all choked up ... )
Posted on Apr 19, 2002, 2:32 PM from IP address 63.50.138.78
Be proud of your son. We'll pray for his safety too. Did you happen to catch Tom Brokaw aboard the U.S.S. Stennis on Thursday night? That was very moving as well. Seeing real faces to this war makes it personal and also makes me proud of our service men and women.
Posted on Apr 19, 2002, 8:42 PM from IP address 216.40.160.28
Hmm, another Russian beauty? I have not a clue as to who this is. And even if I had her name I would not know where she hails from. How about a hint or something? Like what Army Group would you would be assigned to if you were to "liberate" her from Soviet oppression?
Posted on Apr 17, 2002, 6:31 PM from IP address 12.221.9.43
the Caucasas region, or very near Persia. Her and Kathryn Bell, the JAG babe have similar ancestral features (Bell's were from Persia, what they used to call Iran). I really wouldnt care if it was Finnland, actually.
Posted on Apr 17, 2002, 6:56 PM from IP address 209.98.173.104
Saw the "trailer" for it last week before "We were Soldiers." The CG effects look good and it appears the film will have a lot of "action" (no surprise there given John Woo is directing as you guys know).
I cannot tell and don't know if the history will be presented correctly. With this "historical fiction" (war) film, I hope the true "history" will hold a higher position in the story shown then the "fiction." We shall see.
FYI (for those who may not know):
The true "Windtalkers" were American Indians in the US Marines fighting in the PTO, notability on Saipan.
Saipan was a battle that began on 6/15/44. The fighting was fierce and on the second and third days of the battle one of the few "tank Vs tank" battles in the Pacific took place. Thousands of Japanese civilians committed suicide. The island was declared secure on July 9th.
Navaho code talkers were used therein. It was shown that it was faster to use the men in communications in their native language then sending messages in code and then having to decode them.
In Sept. 1942 about 200 were recruited. They expanded their vocabulary for their language by inventing and adopting new words and meanings to them. The first code talkers started with Marine units in the early part of 1943. Between 375 and 420 were so used. The Japanese never could break the code and therefore it did help the US Marines therein.
Posted on Apr 12, 2002, 9:40 PM from IP address 205.188.198.44
of war, the codetalkers. I'm really glad a movie has been made about them, I just hope there is more history than fiction. Maybe they show more action during the preview to get more people to go see it, I hope that's the case. If it's just a bunch of jumping around in slow motion and an hour and a half of explosions with no story, I'll pass.
Posted on Apr 14, 2002, 5:42 PM from IP address 216.96.43.211
that this movie is going to be a big stinker. I mean, its Woo! for christ sake! Besides peeing on the Dude's rug (that really ties the room together ), he is going to make it a big kung fu battle. I can see it now, maybe even a sword fight between nick cage and a japanese officer (in the middle of a cave- flames everywhere) complete with running, diving gun battles in all thier aerial glory.
Posted on Apr 14, 2002, 8:40 PM from IP address 64.230.196.148
Yea, I'm thinking the same. I have heard about John Woo and the special effects. I'm not sure I have seen any of his work, because I absolutely can't stand 99.5% of what Hollywood churns out. This one will be a computer-generated thrill ride, no doubt. Isn't that what everyone wants? (No, it isn't!)
How about some realism FOR A CHANGE!
Posted on Apr 14, 2002, 10:09 PM from IP address 12.221.9.43
...when Woo was the most innovative director in...HONG KONG! Bullet to the Head, City on Fire...ahhh..those were the days! Since he came to Hollywood he's been homoginized and his technique has become a cliche. I'll stay home and watch my videos of his glory days as a top-notch action director of truly twisted and ultra violent films.
I'm amazed that someone of your usually excellent tastes in movies could not like "We Were Soldiers," Mike. I went with low expectations and saw what I thought was one of the best war films ever put on screen. I went to see "Blackhawk Down" with high expectations and was very dissapointed. WWS was, to me, a lesson on how to make a good war movie, and BHD was a lesson on how not to.
Posted on Apr 15, 2002, 2:13 AM from IP address 164.67.21.131
I like Woo's movies too, but the ones from back in the day before he was popular here. MI:2? Stank! The Killer stands out in my mind, but now hes gone the way of everyone else i guess.
Posted on Apr 15, 2002, 6:30 PM from IP address 64.230.196.148
As a movie on its own merits, showing what war is like for the people involved, it rates highly.
As history, it rates poorly. The historian in me still thinks these guys can do better. Check out some of the LZ X-Ray websites (including the one by the guy who Barry Pepper portrays, who is now selling autogrpahed copies of his photos (including one of a body bag being carried off) for mucho dinero.
Posted on Apr 15, 2002, 9:06 PM from IP address 24.71.223.142
When I watched the History versus Hollywood, they had some of the guys who were there, and they said the movie rated about 80 percent correct. So did the historians on the panel. Highest rating I've seen on the show, I believe.
Yeah, well, everyone is an opportunist. Maybe he really needs the money. I know some street people who are ex-vets who could definitely use some dinero!
Posted on Apr 16, 2002, 1:15 PM from IP address 164.67.35.13
...his photos for sale long before We Were Soldiers came out. It's been a couple years since I first visited his website. However, I don't know if the prices have gone up since the release of the film.
One thing I don't like is publishers releasing new editions of the book with the film characters. That's been done with both Black Hawk Down (which Harnett on the cover) and We Were Soldiers (with Gibson). Glad I have pre-movie editions of both!!! But that's marketing in the big city....
Posted on Apr 16, 2002, 3:58 PM from IP address 12.38.33.50
I only see a professional photographer's accurate recording of events in that conflict. I don't in any way think he ghoulishly focused on a scene of a body bag in a sensationalistic tabloid or R. Hearst newspaper way.
He was recording what was really going on, no more. Body bags being taken from post-battle areas were not infrequent of course, and all he did was record it.
He wouldn't be the caliber of photographer he became if he had only taken snapshots of nice, pretty little scenes. What kind of recorder of history would he be if he only showed the things that don't reflect the words of W. T. Sherman, that "War is hell..."?
People haven't said the photographer of the USS Arizona or the USS Shaw exploding at Pearl Harbor was or were ghouls. People would scream about having their history whitewashed if these guys pulled their punches.
So what if one of Galloway's photos shows a body bag? Isn't that what war is all about?
Posted on Apr 16, 2002, 9:34 PM from IP address 64.12.103.24
I hate new film editions of books. I like the original concepts for book covers - they are generally laid out by graphic artists and look more aesthetic. Mass marketing it for a film means some suit plastering the photo from the movie on it, which always looks garish. I much prefer the original Blackhawk Down cover - wish I'd gotten it while it was out - now I'll have to troll used bookstores for it. Same with We Were Soldiers Once, and Young. I refuse to buy new movie editions - they're ugly. And expensive!
Posted on Apr 16, 2002, 9:54 PM from IP address 128.97.106.67
photos from Vietnam I was thinking of while writing that.
In these Pulitzer-winning photos, I doubt that anyone thinks Eddie Adams profiteered when he sold his photo of the shooting of the Cong suspect to LIFE magazine.
It's in this:http://www.newseum.org/pulitzer/main.htm
The other I couldn't locate yet is the one of the little girl running screaming toward the photographer as her village was napalmed behind her.
Posted on Apr 17, 2002, 8:39 PM from IP address 205.188.200.42
it's the old economic formula of a thing being worth whatever the market will pay, or price varying according to demand. It goes for art, hamburger, gasoline, or the new jacket I bought yesterday, too.
It's really no different than Steph selling her SPR shirt on the net. That's just getting to be the marketplace of today.
Posted on Apr 18, 2002, 9:18 AM from IP address 64.12.96.70
...where do you draw the line? I guess a free society lets us draw the line ourselves. I think action figures of Adolf Hitler or Concentration Camp guards are obscene, others do not. Serial Killer trading cards is another goodie.
I think the photos Galloway took are an extremely important part of the historical record and should be preserved, and viewed by as many people as possible. I think Galloway deserves to be compensated for his bravery in being there to take them.
I personally draw the line at framing a photo of a dead GI and proudly displaying it in my office or den (especially if I wasn't even there). Maybe I'm approaching this overtly religiously, but I just don't think that the taking of human life is something to be celebrated. Remembered, yes, and the bravery of the troops (and Galloway) is something to be celebrated.
Anyway, not saying you're wrong or I'm right, just venting a little.
Posted on Apr 18, 2002, 10:36 PM from IP address 24.71.223.142
"Why is the flag sometimes backwards on the side of airplanes, buses, and military uniforms?
The flag decals have the union (the blue area with the stars) on the side closer to the front of the plane. On the plane's left, the decal shows the flag with the union at the left, as usual. On the plane's right side, the union is on the right. This is done so that the flag looks as if it is blowing in the wind created by the forward movement of the ship or airplane. You can see this on cars and trucks as well. Click to see pictures of the flag decals on Air Force 1. There are two separate flag patches in the Army inventory: the normal U.S. flag replica that is worn on the left sleeve, and what is referred to as the "reversed field" flag patch, which is worn on the right sleeve."
Posted on Apr 18, 2002, 4:03 PM from IP address 64.12.105.29
if anyone is interested in buying it from me before I post it on ebay, I'd rather sell it to someone I know and am friends with. I'm selling it since I'm allergic to wool and it's driving me crazy. I haven't worn it or anything, but just having it around is bothering my allergies. I hate to part with it, but that's how it goes. It was used in the movie and I have a jacket that went with it but unfortunately the shirt wasn't stamped the jacket is though, but I'm not selling it. Anyway, I'm asking 50 for it but I'm not sure what it would sell for on ebay. If interested please let me know. Thanks!
Posted on Apr 15, 2002, 1:59 PM from IP address 208.23.105.1
I would try and sell it on eBay first, Steph. You can always set the minimum at $50 - you may get a lot more since it is a movie item. Nice of you to offer it here first, but go for the $$.
Posted on Apr 15, 2002, 6:04 PM from IP address 128.97.106.67
It has both patches on the sleeves and is a size 16, which is the reason why I think it won't sell. Not only do I not have any proof it was worn in the movie, but it's a smaller size. I wanted to post it on ebay but it seems like no one is really buying on there anymore. I guess it won't hurt to post it at 50 and see what happens, if I don't make any money off it I'm only out 40 cents to post it. I'll let you guys know on here in case anyone wants to bid on it.
Posted on Apr 15, 2002, 9:17 PM from IP address 216.96.43.137
I believe that GM also had a covert interest in OPEL, prior to WW2. This "interest" continued throughout WW2.
There are quite a few photo of German 2 and 3-ton trucks, on the Eastern Front, with GM or Chevolet badges on the grille. These photos have only become known, after the fall of the Berlin Wall.
Politics and money make odd bedfellows.
Posted on Apr 12, 2002, 4:03 PM from IP address 24.205.20.241
Of the German Army trudging on in the muddy quagmire of Russia, Spring 1942. In the lead is a Ford truck, followed by a Chevy truck, then two motorcycles, and a bunch of troops, up to their knees in the gunk.
Odd photo.
Posted on Apr 13, 2002, 3:00 AM from IP address 24.205.20.241
I think the Chevy was "borrowed" from the Russians. It's a Canadian made (CMP) Chevy C 60 (3 ton, 4 X 4). With the famous "Chevy" logo and all.
The Ford is a 3-ton Model BB knock-off. V-8 Ford engine still in place, as they proved much more reliable than the German Equivalent, at the time. 90HP. Oval grille. But, undivided windshield.
Caption sez attached to the 19.PD.
Posted on Apr 13, 2002, 11:59 AM from IP address 24.205.20.241
I forget the title, but all about our corporate dealings with the Reich. Given the current moral vaccum that exists in the business world, it suprises me not one whit they would have done this. In fact, Henry Ford was an anti-semetic sweatshop owner of the highest caliber, as were many of his ilk during the so-called "Gilded Age" and "Industrial Age." The only difference between Ford, J.P. Morga, Vanderbilt, etc., was that they were blatant about being unethical, whearas today corporate magnates have to sweep all their trash under the carpet to avoid the wrath of the courts and unions.
Posted on Apr 14, 2002, 11:26 AM from IP address 128.97.106.67
Dang, I'm gonna need to take a shower now, just reading that...
One of these days I'm going to have to go down there and laugh at the troops sweating their butts off. Maybe I'll wait until 3rd Brigade, 2nd ID (my old unit) goes...
Posted on Apr 13, 2002, 10:10 PM from IP address 66.217.24.111
Interesting article. Brought up the point about the loader. It ain't easy lugging a 120mm round, in confined quarters. Put it into the breech, on command.
The best tank commanders have the best crew. They really get to learn the little idiosyncracies of their mount. I've read quite a few accounts of the tank that had the fastest loader, who could load cleanly (no jams) every time---was often the tank that survived split second tank engagements.
The crew fights in the tank, eats in the tank, sleeps in or under the tank, even travels on rail or ships--in their tank. A real symbiotic relationship.
Posted on Apr 13, 2002, 10:19 PM from IP address 24.205.20.241
I got curious about those tight quarters and all the heat buildup in that sealed little can in the desert and asked about any cooling inside the vehicle. One of those guys, he said he was a tanker, said their outfits were made to circulate coolant.
Any of that ring true to you guys? Sounds sort of far-fetched to me.
Hey Lee? The last two days, so probably when those pix were taken, there have been sprinkles, and I imagine that's why the dust is down. Notice those rain clouds? They've hung around the past week or so.
We can often hear those faint cannon and the MG's in the evening here, ten miles away. Even when that muted, their power sure comes through.
Posted on Apr 14, 2002, 12:57 AM from IP address 205.188.200.48
Loading is actually quite easy, once you know what to do. On the M60, the loader snatched the storage handle, snapped it back with the left hand, caught the round as it slid out with the right, dipped it down a bit, let it flip and catch with the left hand, place in the breech and ram it home (the breech block pushes your hand out of the way), hit the safety arming the gun, step back, shout "UP", get your left hand on another storage handle, repeat. You may lose a second here if the TC calls for a different type of ammo.
The part I hated was manning the co-ax when on the move, with the stabilizer on: the gun carraige looks like machinery designed with amputation of your arm or hand in mind.
Posted on Apr 14, 2002, 5:55 AM from IP address 209.98.170.142
Rare combat photo of the Me-410. This one has a BK 5.0cm cannon slung under the fuselage. Look carefully at the front of the nose, for the gun's barrel.
Photo taken by top front gunner of the B-17---from side window---behind the co-pilot.
Posted on Apr 13, 2002, 12:02 PM from IP address 24.205.20.241
Ahhh...I lve the smell of flamewar in the morning...
by NAV
...except it's evening. My only addition to comments made here is in regards to movies versus reality. Movies largely are NOT reality, and I think everyone knows that going in. If they don't, they are unsophisticated. I've said this till my face turns blue and still the same arguement keeps coming round.
Now here is the lesson about historical fiction; most of it is about the UNORDINARY, not the ordinary. This is something that many history buffs never seem to recoginze, maybe out of lack of imagination. This is why they are "fact" people and fiction writers do what they do best.
People doing things they usually don't do, exceptions to the rule, the one man who survived the Alamo, etc., is what makes fiction interesting or fun to read, not regurgitation of facts. We don't need someone to point out that no one survived Custer's last stand after reading or watching Little Big Man. It's a suspension of disbelief in order to make the story interesting. No one named Horatio Hornblower did all those amazing stunts against unbelievable odds in order to win naval battles, either, although there are precendents, and conceivably almost anything is possible. There was no Jack Crabb who survived Little Big Horn, no one named Harry Flashman who was present at almost every famous battle of the Victorian era, or a Richard Sharpe of the 95th Rifles, or a Hawkeye or Trapper John or a Gunnar Asch. It is the person of lack of vision who nit picks away at these things. I agree that there were plain stupid things in SPR, like the attack on the radar station, which I sat through with my jaw on the floor, but that doesn't detract from all the things they got right, maybe for the first time in movie history. The film was more realistic than any other war film I've seen, except Band of Brothers, which came out later by the same team (and wasn't fiction), and it broke down more barriers between generations than anything I've ever seen before, maybe since Easy Rider. It put World War Two in the cultural lexicon again, resulted in many more war films (the more the better!), some of which haven't been made yet, uped the ante on realism, and most importantly got recognition for vets, many of whom aren't with us anymore, or soon won't be. Your sacrifice being recognized fifty some-odd years later is a pretty nice way of ending your years, I would say, even if it was caused by an "imperfect" movie.
Posted on Apr 8, 2002, 11:00 PM from IP address 128.97.106.67
I would guess that only combat veterans can tell us how close SPR came to reality, and from what some have said, the first 30 minutes are pretty close. Even Bill our bonafied WW2 veteran said that SPR "was not reality as I saw it." The factual events about saving the Niland? brother was something about a chaplin driving a jeep to the front lines to fetch him out of harms way. Would not have made a very interesting script. I could see a veterans frustration when he comes to this board and reads threads about the correctness of uniforms and weapons, or tactics, then screams out "Don't get so caught up in fiction, I was there and it didn't happen this way." I have been a history buff and a WW2 buff since I was 11 years, and had family members who were in combat so WW2 has always been in my cultural lexicon and I have always had great respect for WW2 veterans. Its too bad that it took 50 years for the to recognize their sacrifices.
Posted on Apr 9, 2002, 2:33 PM from IP address 131.89.147.217
One minute someone is complaining about a movie not being accurate, and the next minute someone is complaining about those who complain. Sort of a damned if you do and damned if you don't. Discussions about history are fine, but endless diatribes about the same old points are boring. I've been a history buff since junior high school, and have read and gamed history since that time. I am 46 now. So what? I agree that it's too bad it's taken the vets all this time to get recognized but let's face it, they haven't exactly been clamouring for it. After SPR they have gracefully accepted it. That's the difference between a WW2 vet and vets of more recent wars. I also agree that the "real" story of the Niland brothers would have been a yawner on film, so how about recognizing the fact that SPR was a great film both cinematically and as a catalyst for recognition for those who fought the war.
To be honest we've had this discussion so many times I feel like I'm listening to an endless tape loop. And now for something completely different...THE LARCH!
Posted on Apr 9, 2002, 6:01 PM from IP address 128.97.106.67
"War in the Dark" --Steve O., JHN, NAV, Mikey , et. al.
by John M.
Reading and thinking about the posting the last few days reminded me of an old article I saved from 1998 written by Roger Spiller (George C. Marshall Prof. of Military History at the US Army Command and General Staff College).
He writes,..."Saving Private Ryan is built around an obscure incident. The story (loosely) of the Niland brothers...But Hollywood could never leave a fact alone...One cannot know about war from eating popcorn in the dark..."
He goes on to run down the list of major war films and comment about them. When he went to see SPR, he returned stating it was "a good war film." As for the plot line he stated it was "...dopey, but then the troops drew lots of dopey missions in World War 2... Any night attack was dopier."
He goes on to point out the fact that at the time (before "Band of Brothers") no other war film has been so acclaimed by all, including veterans' groups. "...But what, exactly, are they approving? The film may refresh their experiences, but it is highly unlikely that the film will add to their memories." He goes on to end with this observation, " ... judged by the standard of showing what war is really like, there never has been a good war film, and never will be...for me the best films about war are those whose makers try to look squarely at war for what it is, not how they think it should be..."
-------------------------------------------------------
In my opinion, guys there is no reason not to discuss SPR or any other war film; war / history book or event related thereto. This to learn / understand the past and discuss things of joint interest; as long as things are kept in proper perspective and context.
Part of my history is that I got started at age 8 studying WW2 to learn and understand what my father & many of his friends went through. And one outcome is that he and I have toured many a battlefield and walked through many a museum around the world together.
There is much I know and more I don't. As Michael stated, one cannot and will not ever know it all. I see what takes place here (often times) as a forum akin to The History Channels "Hollywood or History."
This board is an open forum and NO subject should be dismissed arbitrary; I am not counting flaming, or what can only be said to be ridiculous writing (ranting included). And if you think it is bad here, go to the AOL WW2 boards sometime. I end with some words from a friend who put the points above well when he wrote, "From the solder's 'worm's-eye' view to the 'arm-chair' historian---I think all can learn and help bridge gaps in knowledge and experience."
Certainly, that can and should be true.
Posted on Apr 9, 2002, 9:28 PM from IP address 205.188.199.158
"In my opinion, guys there is no reason not to discuss SPR or any other war film; war / history book or event related thereto. This to learn / understand the past and discuss things of joint interest; as long as things are kept in proper perspective and context."
I'm pretty sure this is what I said. The last sentence is the most imperative. Context. I'm tired of the endless squabbles of how SPR didn't portray this right or that right or blah blah blah. Maybe In the last four years I've read far to many of these nitpicking arguements and have had enough of them. They are the same thing recycled over and over and over again. And it's not because I canonize the film - it's because it's gotten old - as old as the "Was Willie the SS trooper who killed Mellish" and "was the Sniper Kevin Costner?" questions. At one point we took on all these queries and discussed them over at Trent's board, welcoming newcomers and trying to be fair to all, whether they were grizzled veterans or kids who didn't know the first thing about history. We figured the best way to intruige someone in a subject was to talk to them about it without talking down to them or being nasty or superior. I still feel that way. I guess I should just stay out of conversations about the film. But the one thing that really irritates me is the inability for some to understand and separate fact and fiction, or appreciate the marriage between the two. I honestly don't think that some stuffy historian-types ever pick up a work of fiction, nor can understand the meaning of the term.
Anyway, thanks for the words of wisdom, John.
Posted on Apr 9, 2002, 10:37 PM from IP address 128.97.106.67
But there's good fiction and bad fiction...and disguised fiction
by
Kelly's Heroes was obviously fiction, and it worked on that level. SPR had too many people claiming it was true to life, and a lot of people (and we have discussed the utility of people who do are their learning from TV and movies) walked away from SPR convinced the German Army was made up of buffoons who couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag, and that wars are won by small groups of GIs. It is an ongoing Hollywood tradition - the Squad of GIs in the forefront. Dirty Dozen, A Midnight Clear, Saving Private Ryan, Castle Keep, you can include Cross of Iron in there, too - all concentrate on a dozen or so men of an "elite recon unit"; the theme has been done so many times it's as if the entire war was fought that way. I personally think it does a disservice to those who actually fought - not a major one, for if a movie is good enough on other levels, like SPR was, then it does far more good than harm.
But I still think that for my money, a serious project like Band of Brothers is of far more value (or, say, Gettysburg) - where you get a feel for the actual scope of an event and the fact that real wars are conducted by companies and battalions where lots of men get killed rather ingloriously and without any fanfare.
As for fiction, I'd prefer war fiction to be overtly comedic while maintaining some semblance of truth (Kelly's Heroes is the best example) or romantic (Winds of War, even Pearl Harbor) but the silly stuff that are fiction but have nothing significant to say (Green Berets, The Devil's Brigade) I never saw the point of.
But of course, we are only now reaching a level of sophistication among both viewers, and film-makers (aided by new digital technologies) that allow movie makers to do what 20 years ago they could not. Even so, The Longest Day in 1962, or the semi-fictional The Bridge at Remagen, was leagues ahead of other "silly" and fictional movies like Tobruk or Raid on Rommel.
Posted on Apr 10, 2002, 11:10 PM from IP address 24.71.223.142
Well, of course there is good fiction and bad fiction! Duh! And many fine lines in between. I never remember anyone saying SPR was history. All I remember is people saying how closely it resembled a soldiers experience. And this wasn't studio hype, it was from the audiences and from vets on the History Channel and articles in the paper. As far as movies being primarily about small groups of "heroes" set against great odds - that's because that is what people relate to since the dawn of time. Myth, legend, folk tales, fairy tales. Oddysseus, Robin Hood, Jack the Giant Killer, The Fellowship of the Ring. This has carried over into stories. It's what people expect. It is also easier to keep track of a handful of people and develop their characters. Band of Brothers could focus on a larger group because it had several episodes in which to do so. And by the way, that was non-fiction! Of course it rang true!
There have been a lot of war films made that focus on the average joe - just about anything by Sam Fuller, Battleground, and The Longest Day for one. Many, many more. I have also seen war films that do focus on an elite group, but wind up with the main character pointing out the foot slogger and saying something like "There go the real heroes." I've seen it so many times it's a cliche. How about Wheels of Terror? They were about the farthest thing from an elite unit - they were part of a penal battalion, who end up shooting their commanding officer at the end! LOL!
Personally, I think there is room for all kind of war films from all types of perspectives. I appreciate movies like Glory and mini-series as much as I do romps like Kelly's Heroes and Guns of Navarrone. Some films are just action/adventure and don't say anything in particular other than entertain us. The Devil's Brigade was a fun movie. So was Tobruk, for that matter. Even Green Beret's is such trash it's a howl to watch because of its very rediculousness. Raid on Rommel I can live without. I just turn off the thinking cap. If I want a message I'll watch Oliver Stone or go Western Union. When I watch Godzilla movies I don't look for hidden meanings or think they could have made the JDF jets and tanks look more realistic! LOL!
I agree that now we have the opportunity to make more realistic history and military films and am glad to see them being cranked out and given Oscars, even if some don't think they are all up to snuff. The more the better, before the fickle tastes of audiences decide that they are sick of them and Hollywood turns back to some tired genre that hasn't been milked dry enough, like movie versions of 60's sitcoms or disaster movies!
Posted on Apr 11, 2002, 6:19 PM from IP address 128.97.106.67
TGB & PT-109 do injustice to the books they are based on...
by John M.
>...the silly stuff that are fiction but have nothing significant to say (The Green Berets)...> Mikey>
True, the film above also "remade" the title song which was an inferior version to the 1966 original. "The Green Berets" further does an overall injustice to the book by Robin Moore which is worth a read.
Another film that does the book (it is based on) an overall injustice is "PT-109." I just finished the book and it is well written. Descriptive, and as fresh today as 40 years ago. Written by Robert Donovan; and the new Afterward by Duane Hove is an excellent overview of the PT ~ the men, boats and fighting in the PTO.
Posted on Apr 12, 2002, 8:29 PM from IP address 205.188.198.44
...I liked! I saw it as a double bill with None But The Brave in 1965 or thereabouts as a kid and actually liked None But The Brave a lot better because it was a better film. But I think PT 109 was good. How it stacked up to the book I don't remember because I read the book when I was nine or ten and don't remember a lot of it. I read A Night To Remember about the same time and thought it was a lot more interesting.
Posted on Apr 13, 2002, 12:28 AM from IP address 164.67.25.95
>...I liked! I saw it as a double bill with None But The Brave in 1965 or thereabouts as a kid and actually liked None But The Brave a lot better because it was a better film. But I think PT 109 was good.>NAV>
...suffers from a common problem of many War films (and Westerns) back then--too clean and sanitized. The book is much better. "The Longest Day" , "To Hell and Back" suffer in the same regard. The whole real story of "PT-109" (and the PT service in the PTO) along with the true Audie Murphy story would be great films if done today (and done right). "None but The Brave" I believe holds up better today. 2 and 1/2 stars in my book.
Posted on Apr 13, 2002, 6:03 AM from IP address 64.12.106.46
"This board is an open forum and NO subject should be dismissed arbitrary; I am not counting flaming, or what can only be said to be ridiculous writing (ranting included). And if you think it is bad here, go to the AOL WW2 boards sometime. I end with some words from a friend who put the points above well when he wrote, "From the solder's 'worm's-eye' view to the 'arm-chair' historian---I think all can learn and help bridge gaps in knowledge and experience."
Don't most people realize that everything in life involves subjectivity? Talk to a hundred soldiers. They all will tell different stories even if they served next to one another. I have several vets in my family and two that are serving in the army now and they all have taught me various things. Much of what I learned in history classes is now being taught to be false and historians disagree to this day about cause and effect of war, strategy, etc. A movie portrays a particular point of view, it provides a small window to a specific time, and is always told from the writer and director's perspective. Who's to say it's right or wrong? Films entertain us and a good film provokes discussion and memories, which SPR certainly did. It also stirred up loyalty and a gratefulness for our veterans. People who have no imagination or are limited only by their own knowledge should stick to non-fiction, fact based discussions or at least lighten up enough to take part in give and take talks.
Posted on Apr 10, 2002, 8:41 AM from IP address 216.40.160.37
War and warfare, like about anything else in life, has two sides we can see it from and learn. On one hand it has a very subjective side and on the other it has a meaningful objective side, and we gain greatly by learning both and being able to see and understand both in the things we experience. Sometimes something might lean more in one direction than the other, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have something to say to us.
Take the verse I posted yesterday. Even though the title and content say, "German Soldiers" or something similar, it contains only a few vague references to soldiers in a street. It says nothing about weapons, but then of course it's talking of prisoners. It doesn't even make much in the way of mention of their uniforms, just referring to "[something] gray". But by making only subjective points to us, we can visualize the objective ones that must be there.
Other stories of conflict do just the opposite, and some give various blends of both to bring the seriousness of the subject matter to us in ways we can appreciate.
I'm glad both viewpoints of the subject have been around since SPR opened, and I feel we should see both as valid.
Posted on Apr 11, 2002, 1:46 AM from IP address 205.188.200.47
You missed the point in my devils advocate post. I am not pushing, just defending the idea that someone may come here and post ideas that are iconoclastic to what is usually posted here. I think all views make interesting topics to discuss, not just the ideas that some want to hear.-MikeG
Posted on Apr 10, 2002, 7:09 AM from IP address 198.81.17.187
...I took it a step farther. Questions are one thing - terminal bitch sessionsw are another. Especially by some who do noting but. That's one thing. I can and do generally just stay out of those because I don't care to talk about it anymore. The main thing that annoys me is the inability on the part of facts and figures types to understand the role of fiction in literature. This drives me to distraction. Maybe I should ignore that as well, but it is hard for me to conceive of such ignorance. I guess it's all our life's experience, which is all different.
Posted on Apr 10, 2002, 9:20 PM from IP address 128.97.106.67
I would say Band of Brothers should be the standard all movies live to aspire to, but different people have different tastes. Some prefer fictional stories, a well rounded person would prefer both fiction and non-fiction.
I liked SPR a lot, despite my conclusions on its extreme lack of historical accuracy, simply because the story was good, well acted, and thought provoking - raising the profile of vets, like you say, but also making people think about various issues. The value of one man's life, for example, or the guilt felt by war survivors (only briefly touched on at the end of SPR).
Unfortunately, SPR was a case of a fictional story being accepted, and promoted as, real - "based on the true story" of the Niland brothers. Even if the studio didn't promote it that way, many in the press did.
I still wouldn't lump SPR in with a crap-fest like Pearl Harbour, though my objection with Pearl Harbour was not the love story - I actually liked that aspect of it - but with the mangling of history to make the love story fit.
There are good examples of historical movies - A Rumor of War comes immediately to mind, and Band of Brothers - and examples of good fiction set in historical times - Kelly's Heroes, or MASH.
Then there are the truly odd ones that claim to be history - The Devil's Brigade, for example - but really have little basis in the facts as they happened. I put SPR in the last category.
Posted on Apr 9, 2002, 11:15 PM from IP address 24.71.223.142
...I am sure football players react negatively when these so called jock movies come out, or for that matter, taxi cab drivers object when they are characterized badly in the movies by stereotypes. Soldiers are no different, and historians watch out for all types of characterizations. I think everyone has a proprietary interest in seeing themselves, or people like them, portrayed accurately. I've known ambulance and EMS personnel who hate the TV show ER with a passion. Cops laugh at shows like NYPD Blue. Etc. Etc. Etc.
I think the underlying feeling when you see something like that is "they don't care enough to get the facts straight". It lessens a person's feeling of self worth, as if a bad portrayal is evidence of the world passing judgement on them, or what they believe, or what they have chosen to study.
I don't see that that is abnormal.
Posted on Apr 9, 2002, 11:21 PM from IP address 24.71.223.142
>...I am sure football players react negatively when these so called jock movies come out, or for that matter, taxi cab drivers object when they are characterized badly in the movies by stereotypes.>Mikey>
That is why I cannot stand to watch 99% of the garbage that claim to be Lawyer shows on TV. They do things, ask questions and say things--both in court and to the judge one could NEVER (and would never) do. The best show, that still has errors (mainly for drama or to make points of view) is "Law & Order." The worse one is "Philly."The best Lawyer film was "The Verdict" with Paul Newman. When one is done well it is both watchable and appreciated...I am sure it is like that for others (in different fields) as well.
Posted on Apr 10, 2002, 7:02 AM from IP address 64.12.106.49
...and you still have the weird ones that you can't figure out if they are serious attempts to portray the subject, or fiction - Ally McBeal comes to mind...
Posted on Apr 10, 2002, 7:35 AM from IP address 24.71.223.142
...they bore the crap out of me! Seen one, ya seen 'em all. Same with doctor shows and cop shows! Maybe someday they can find another profession to focus on, for christ sake! I tried watching Ally McBeal a couple of times and thought it was yuppie tripe. That's me, though.
Posted on Apr 10, 2002, 9:24 PM from IP address 128.97.106.67
"This shitty, godawful mess" - the Reality vs. Movies thread
by
That entire thread was based on a flawed premise; Keith is correct in that SPR was a truly bad movie as far as portraying actual military practices. Unfortunately, those who have served have a hard time explaining actual military practice to those who haven't. As I say, even with the barest of basic training, supplemented by a lot of study, the ludicrousness of SPR's military themes is very striking, for reasons that would not ring true with civilians. It's kind of a case of "you had to be there."
The Burp Gun in question was the MP28, as finally discussed in the thread. Again, most soldiers don't notice or care about nomenclature. "Grab your fuckin' gun and follow me" is much more instinctive than "Properly grasp your 7.62mm FNC1A1 Self Loading Rifle and fall into Ack Ack formation." Especially when being shot at...EVERY German SMG was a "burp gun" or "schmeisser", every tank a "Tiger", and every field piece an "88" to most GIs. Understandably so.
Which isn't to suggest that the questions shouldn't be asked; John(s), Steve(s), Gus, et al, I applaud your interest and your insights (I've seen you guys post a lot of good stuff here) and hope that will continue. I've learned a lot from all of you.
Perhaps Steph needs a list of "required reading" on her site - I am sure Steve Oda has a long list of books he could recommend, I know I do, and so too would Lee and some of the others. Perhaps starting there would help us all to frame our discussions better.
Posted on Apr 8, 2002, 9:23 PM from IP address 24.71.223.142
In the book: "Outpost of Freedom" which is a documentary of Roger Donlan, 1st MOH of the Vietnam War---chaos, ridculous orders from High Command, and mass confusion during battle seemed to be the predominate theme.
Although under heavy attack by a force numbering 5:1 enemy:good guys and told to call an air attack and artillery barrage by his superiors---in Donlan's mind, the thought of artillery support or air support, during the night raid, was never considered.
Capt Donlan knew that no matter how well the coordinates were relayed to the command center---the artillery or tactical air strikes would wipe out as many good guys as bad.
It wasn't that the arty or air was poor---it was that there were no definite set battlelines. The NVA attacked in a "revolving door" offensive. Hit, draw back----regroup, then hit again at the opposite side. Then, withdraw, regroup and hit in two spots. Over and over for 6 hours straight.
Some NVA broke into the outpost and were in foxholes ahead of the front line Ranger guards.
The S/Sgt was a Korean Vet and seemed to understand the lack of support order, from Donlan. The greener troops had a hard time understanding why Donlan would not call for quick tactical help.
And what saved the outpost was Donlan, though wounded severely several times, running from front line foxhole to foxhole with mortars and HMG to supress the hot spots, until daylight.
I was left with the inpression that during battle---rules are often broken. And those that adapt to the developing situation faster, survive. And those that may stick to conventional training procedures, may not.
So, I see SPR as not so out of place during battle. My other great-uncle served with Merrill's Maraunders. I know that unit broke many "rules" and did many things that seemed stupid in 20/20 hindsight. But during war, you probably don't have the luxury of weighing all the options.
My 2¢ worth. Now, off the soap box.
Posted on Apr 13, 2002, 12:19 AM from IP address 24.205.20.241
My post from a discussion on another board I thought may be of interest here.
In the wake of the attack on Pearl Harbor, it is true that many thousands volunteered, however, the majority of GIs joined up through conscription. In Sept. 1940 Congress approved it. The first peace time draft in our history.
The law required all men 21 to 35 to register for the draft. One then received a draft number (the first number drawn was 158). After a number was picked, the man was sent to the draft board and underwent a physical exam. He was then classified. The recruits were divided up and then went off the basic training.
There were nearly 50 million registrants and relatively few attempts to evade service. A total of 348,217 cases logged by the Selective Service. Small considering the total number of registrants and the total number that served (16 million men & women, I recall).
Of those who attempted to evade serve: 42,973 were classified as "conscientious objectors." Some 25,000 agreed to enter as Medics. About 12,000 worked in non-military service jobs.
Posted on Apr 12, 2002, 9:03 PM from IP address 205.188.198.44
while I have to LIVE in this city-trying-to-be-a-village.
Even though most of what I do on ballots ends up being on the Democrat side in elections, this place is so tight and stingy and backwaterish that most of the people here live according to the worst stereotypes of Republicans and run that party into the ground in the eyes of Dems and Independents who aren't able to see the good sides of all the partys.
Posted on Apr 10, 2002, 1:03 PM from IP address 152.163.205.54
I only have to visit, huh?
Trust me, 6 weeks in the dustbowl, with nothing to do but sweat and stare at Squaw Tit Peak (Yes, folks, that's a real place!), and it doesn't FEEL like a visit!
You know the sign out by the Target store on the highway that calls Yakima the "Palm Springs of the Northwest"?
My driver once called it the "Sweltering nutsack of the Northwest."
It seemed like a much better motto to me!
Posted on Apr 11, 2002, 8:07 PM from IP address 66.19.108.218
All that dust, sagebrush, lack of humidity, blazing sun,...
by Jhn
and pointed Squaw Tit Peak overlooking it all. And that stupid sign by Target.
You know those little capsules of silica gel in pills, electronic equipment and so on to soak up moisture in the air? They have a special place around here; the nearest trash can. Always keep the Chapstik and hand cream around when visiting (or living) here, summer and winter.
Posted on Apr 12, 2002, 11:48 AM from IP address 64.12.106.54
Washington State is all green, rainy, wet, and of course, next to the ocean. HA! There's about a 20% strip on the West Coast, backed up by the Cascade Range, that is, The inland 80% or so is dry and dusty, getting little rain, until you get to the extreme Eastern part around Spokane. There the land starts to elevate into the Rocky Mountains, and moisture bearing clouds drop their rain and snow as they rise into cool air.
Central Washington would be a virtual desert without all the irrigation that makes the agricultural paradise here.
Posted on Apr 12, 2002, 3:51 PM from IP address 64.12.103.39
But then, I guess the various troops aren't scheduled for the public like the latest movies, either. Those soldiers aren't out there to entertain the townsfolk.
Posted on Apr 11, 2002, 2:40 AM from IP address 205.188.200.47
I've been watching "Combat Missions" on FX, and it's a cheesy yet interesting TV show...
It obviously is filmed somewhere in the desert, and it seemes like it's on a deserted USAF base, from the hangars and buildings they used for MOUT training, but anyone have an idea where they filmed it?
Posted on Apr 11, 2002, 8:09 PM from IP address 66.19.108.218
Today I had the opportunity to speak to the former member of Yakima's Marine Guards who captured and brought back a Russian T-72 used by the Iraqis and brought it back at the end of Desert Storm.
He said they located the vehicle in Kuwait City, moments before it was disabled by another unit that put a round from the rather obsolete weapon (Tom mentioned he'd seen it demonstrated in the sixties and it had a disposable cardboard tube.) http://butokukai.com/product161.html
They had it towed to a port city in Saudi Arabia, and from there it was shipped here. If anyone wants them, Tom and I got some photos of it this summer that I scanned into .jpg format.
Posted on Apr 10, 2002, 9:39 PM from IP address 205.188.200.33
There is a pop-up add for the "world's largest casino" which I can usually just close, but when I do, it closes down the internet and asks if I want to generate an error report - so far I've generated three! I can choose not to close it down, which is also annoying! Hopefully they will get this corrected soon?!
Posted on Apr 10, 2002, 8:53 PM from IP address 128.97.106.67
When first I saw you in the curious street
Like some platoon of soldier ghosts in gray,
My mad impulse was all to smite and slay,
To spit upon you -- tread you ‘neath my feet.
But when I saw how each sad soul did greet
My gaze with no sign of defiant frown,
How from tired eyes looked spirits broken down,
How each face showed the pale flag of defeat,
And doubt, despair, and disillusionment,
And how were grievous wounds on many a head,
And on your garb red-faced was other red:
And how you stooped as men whose strength was spent,
I knew that we had suffered each other,
And could have grasped your hand and cried, "My brother!"
Posted on Apr 10, 2002, 6:08 AM from IP address 64.12.105.42
I have a nice little B-day present heading your way very soon. I think you might know what that is though, so no surprise. Happy Birthday to you! Must be nice turning 29!
Posted on Apr 7, 2002, 10:44 AM from IP address 216.96.43.165
I cant really say much about what happened, but one guy in my unit was killed and other had his foot blown off by a mine. We mostly did mopping up ops clearing up what was left of the taliban, only a little bit of cave fighting thank god.Other than that things were ok
Posted on Apr 8, 2002, 11:54 PM from IP address 210.49.20.29
First and foremost, as the title of this board indicates, it is a place to discuss movies. Specifically, a place for people lucky enough never to have been in a war themselves, to discuss movies about...war.
So you know we don't have much but our own impressions to go on. The average age is probably somewhere in the 30s, though there are some Gulf War and Somalia vets who have passed through/continue to pass through.
Of course, only having one's own impressions to go on - to achieve a "true" picture of what a war is - is true of war veterans also.
We've been lucky to have the opportunity to talk to Vietnam War vets, and also at least one WW II vet (Bill); coming from 15 years in the reserve army, a degree in History, a successful publishing record (two books on military uniforms, plus some historical magazine articles), and a lifetime (well, 20 years and counting) of reading, watching and studying about WW II and various other conflicts, I am at times a bit embarrassed by the elementary questions some of the other posters ask, or some of the silly statements they make.
But I always remember why they are here - not to be humiliated or lectured, but to learn about something that interests them. And I am thankful to Stephanie for the forum in which I can share ideas with them, and I thank them for their time.
This is something I consider important, and hope they do as well. The importance I place on the subject of our (by our I mean Canada and the US) military history means I sometimes also lecture, and may have humiliated on occasion, here and elsewhere, though that is not my intent.
I also find that most people, no matter how little they may know, are always receptive to discussion, and almost always surprise me with an insightful interpretation, or piece of information I never knew before, and you realize - time and again - that no one will ever know it all, nor could they, and I am just as far from that unattainable goal as anyone else - here or elsewhere.
I've talked to veterans - of WW II, Korea, Vietnam, from the US, Germany, Britain, Canada. The universal trait - in person or in writing - is of reluctance to talk about it, and profound humbleness.
Keith, you can send Frank Burns 2 million dollars and he wouldn't accept it from you. You sound like a phoney, and even if you are what you say you are, your high and mighty attitude is so disturbing and off-putting, I can't imagine I'm wasting my time on you like this, but I thought if nothing else, John should get the courtesy of knowing my feelings on this.
John Lang started a simple little discussion about SPR on a message board devoted to - silly little discussions about SPR. I thought the questions and statements poorly thought out, quite frankly, and I agree with you that it is fatuous to attempt to relate a Spielberg movie to Real Life(TM). Nonetheless, I recognize that John has a deep interest in the subject, and obvious respect for veterans in general and you in particular, and I sat back to watch with interest. Steve Oda, who is obviously well read, at least consulted a couple of books - a better "source", though of course the thrill of speaking to a "war veteran" still outweighs simple fact finding in a book. I certainly don't put them down for taking the opportunity - God knows those opportunities are decreasing by the day, and veterans of WW II are not as accessible for some as they are for others - and especially not ones willing (and able) to talk.
Your answer, like just about everything you've said here, was self-important - to the point of self-absorption - and even if your intent was not to lecture but to educate, it didn't come out that way.
Your constant pleas for attention, and pouting when you don't get it, are quite frankly annoying. You badgered us all to read your memoirs, for example, and stamped your cyber feet when you didn't get a heap of fawning praise.
No "real" veteran I know acts like that, but if you really are what you say you are (and at this point, I scarcely care), perhaps its proof that just because a person is a veteran, doesn't mean he is a saint - or even a very nice person to talk to.
So if you want to join the discussions here, bear in mind who your audience is and consider we're here for fun, not Bachelor of Arts degrees. I have mine already.
Posted on Apr 8, 2002, 9:07 PM from IP address 24.71.223.142
>I am at times embarrassed by the elementary questions some of the other posters ask, or some of the silly statements they make>
Wow, talk about a high and mighty attitude. Didn't know we were such entertainment for you. Keep in mind that Bill also commented that Saving Private Ryan was not reality as he saw it either.--Mike
Posted on Apr 8, 2002, 9:49 PM from IP address 198.81.17.56
I am here to scrutinize every movie or mini series about I see to make sure that the correct buttons were used with the correct uniform, or else it ain't worth watching. Sounds like fun to me?
Posted on Apr 8, 2002, 10:01 PM from IP address 198.81.17.56
I was only originally posting on this Board at the behest of John Lang, who thought I might be able to add some realistic experiences to the mix.
I haven't really left it before. I checked it each day to see if there was something I could help with. I found most of you seemed to be very nice people, as John had indicated.
However, as the sole survivor out of 12 company aidmen who started in combat in January of 1945 across the Saar River into Germany, I just find find it too hard to deal with the book reading and movie going discussions of the board.
That is fine for fun and games, but most of it does not deal with the dreadful reality of serving in combat.
Now, with some smart-ass poster deciding to label me as a fake, that is enough. To people like him I say, "Grow up!" This subject is not child's play.
Volunteer for real combat and find out how much fun it is.
Posted on Apr 8, 2002, 3:21 AM from IP address 198.81.17.188
A lot of us have had the privelege of learning a lot from you. This board is indeed open to just about any easy going talk we come up with, and that may have misled you somehow. I haven't noticed much of anything but the normal give-and-take and sometimes difference of opinions we run into, but I may have missed something along the way.
Take care and keep in touch-John
Posted on Apr 8, 2002, 10:26 AM from IP address 64.12.106.49
NOW THE IDIOT LITTLE "VIDEO CAMERA POPUPS" ARE BACK. LOOKS LIKE IF WE WANT TO STAY WITH THIS BOARD MUCH LONGER, WE HAVE TO PUT UP WITH THIS SENSATIONALIST TRASH THEY FORCE ON US.
NEVER AGAIN A 54 BOARD FOR ME. IF THIS ONE WASN'T SO INTERESTING, I'D BE LONG GONE FROM IT.
Posted on Apr 6, 2002, 9:16 AM from IP address 205.188.201.213
I think their advertising backfired. It was very successful at making people hate them.
This belongs in Madison Avenue textbooks under "How Not To Advertise Your Product."
Posted on Apr 6, 2002, 11:59 AM from IP address 64.12.103.36
(HEY, NETWORK 54, IF YOU BOTHER TO READ THESE. WHEN I WENT TO COLLEGE I EARNED DEGREES IN ART AND ADVERTISING. ONE OF THE MOST BASIC THINGS THEY TEACH IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN PERSISTENT AND ANNOYING, POOR TASTE ADS. THESE ARE ANNOYING AND POOR TASTE AND WILL DRIVE YOUR AUDIENCE AWAY AND GIVE YOU A BAD NAME THAT WILL NEVER DIE.)
Posted on Apr 7, 2002, 7:01 PM from IP address 152.163.201.191
Did anyone watch 'Marines Go To Tank School' on Discovery?
by Tanker
lots of fond memories of mud, track jacks, end connectors, thrown track. They'll learn and get much faster, maybe. Were there any cliches they forgot to use?
Posted on Apr 7, 2002, 6:10 PM from IP address 209.98.170.145
Tom,
Here's one I don't know about, do you?
The last few days I've been riding the bus here when one of the Marine Guards who was part of the unit that brought the Iraqi tank to Yakima rides. He tells me they disabled it with a LAWS shoulder held missile, leaving about a two or three inch hole in the rear where the engine is. I don't recall seeing that, but it might be in one of these photos I scanned. Are you familiar with the weapon? I'm not, and would appreciate any info on it.
I'll post this on Steph's board and maybe find someone out there with some info, too.
Take it easy now,
John
Posted on Apr 3, 2002, 12:43 AM from IP address 64.12.105.31
You mean the M-72 rocket launcher? They are designed for anti-tank work/bunker busting, and would easily penetrate the thin rear armour over an engine, IIRC.
Posted on Apr 3, 2002, 7:16 AM from IP address 24.71.223.142
One guy in AOL--I quoted his post here somewhere--said once he, too was a tanker. Then he signs his posts with "2/72 AB, Camp Casey, Korea."
I figure the AB must be Armored Battalion, but what would the 2/72 be? Division/Battalion or something? This civilian isn't up on his military nomenclature too much.
Thanks (tanks?) for any info on that.
Posted on Apr 6, 2002, 11:48 AM from IP address 64.12.103.36
I was in 3/63-third battalion Sixty-third Armor..1St InfDiv.
by Tanker
there wasnt officially a 'regiment' to go with the 63. 2/72 would be 2nd battalion 72nd Armor. Maybe the AB is a typo. Sometimes Armored is "AD"?? Or, 72nd armor, 2nd InfDiv typo....
Posted on Apr 6, 2002, 6:02 PM from IP address 209.98.170.21
A so-called veteran on an AOL We Were Soldiers board has been getting all shaken up when anyone belittles Vietnam vets. I answered a post of his the other day when he answered someone saying Nam vets often seem reluctant to claim being so.
He says he's a vet from '72s Korea, while "his grandfather" is a vet of the Korean War and of Vietnam. The numbers don't add up to me. Anyone else think this might be a wannabe kid?
>Subject: RE: Movie
>Date: 4/3/02 12:35 PM Pacific Standard Time
>From: Midnitecowboy13
>
>
>this is true for my grand pa clams vetnam yet dose not talk much about it
>couse of what it did to alot of vet and crap like that my grand pa was both
>in vetnam and korea so he knows alot that most don't but yet he dose not talk
>about the many losses we american faced and what we as soldiers went thou.
>2/72. a.b camp casey korea
>terril zwall
>zwall terril
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Terril,
That's really something that your grandfather was one of the vets who fell into the age bracket that allowed him to see both the Korean conflict and the Vietnam one. I've read that lots of Korean vets tried to go for Nam later, but I hear the majority of them were turned down for age.
Posted on Apr 4, 2002, 3:28 PM from IP address 64.12.103.53
Not only did I find out that a twenty-year career soldier from Korea also easily qualify for Vietnam, I must have been thinking a WWII vet, but I also somehow thought the 2/72 he mentions is a date, not something like the division/battalion or some unit designation it likely was.
Now it adds up, saying he's a, say, 21 year old in an armored battalion.
(If you make mistakes, make 'em big.)
Posted on Apr 6, 2002, 10:06 AM from IP address 152.163.207.81
>
>Hi crew,
>
> I personally would have set Jackson up somewhere to pick those Germans
>off...
>
>mk
---------------------------------------------------------
Hi Mike,
Good idea, naturally, but I'd think the Germans would have planned for that. It seems to me they would choose a site, like the top of the hill where they were, where no one could get an advantage on them like that.
If Jackson had found a place, fired, and then they had seen his spot, he would have been in deep doodoo with that heavy MG firing at him.
Of course, if that rifle -- Springfield '03(?) -- outranged the MG, Jackson would have been fine doing like you say.
Posted on Apr 4, 2002, 8:51 PM from IP address 64.12.103.51
That the Germans would have had some support for the MG nest to protect against flanking attacks, like what Capt Miller ordered as well as an attempt by Jackson to pick them off. I would imagine the reasons why more of Millers men didn't get killed. I would think that because the attack was so spread out, and the MG42 not being that accurate of a weapon. Any comments?
Posted on Apr 4, 2002, 9:31 PM from IP address 198.81.17.24
The MG42 or MG34 on a Lafette tripod with a reflector sight (set in HMG mode) is one of the more accurate MGs around. To prove it the modern US M60 is a near copy of the mechanism of fire and aim of the MG42.
Scenes from SPR and BoBro's are quite accurate with US solders glued to the ground. If you raised your head just a little---it could be the last thing you'd ever see.
MG34 and 42 had a very flat trajectory out to 1000 meters. I've seen newsreels of Panthers plinking a T-34 with MG34 coax tracer fire to gain a fix on the moving target. Then, BOOM, one 7.5 cm round and it was all over.
Panthers, Pz IV (läng), and Tigers had recticles that compensated for beyond 1000 meters---to account for drop in the MG34 bullets versus the main gun's round.
So, the coax MG34 was used as an early laser gun sight, by the Germans.
Posted on Apr 5, 2002, 12:22 AM from IP address 24.205.20.15
Thanks for the explanation. I read somewhere that the MG34 was a more accurate weapon than the MG42 because of closer tolerances in the workmanship and that they took longer to make than the MG42 which could be made cheaper and faster. The in depth explanation you gave is very informative. Miller's squad was lucky to get away with only one casuality during the attack on the radar site.
Posted on Apr 5, 2002, 9:17 PM from IP address 198.81.17.32
Both about the same in single shot mode. The MG42 inaccuracy was due to its much greater rate of fire. In the LMG position---it was mostly used for cover fire.
On the heavy tripod (Lafette) with optic sights---both MG34 and 42 were deadly accurate. Tight tolerances of the hand turned MG34 required more maintenance.
MG34 were used in tanks and other armor more to free up MG42 for infantry use. Where supressive fire was a key to survival.
I heard both the MG34 and 42 fire and the MG42 does sound a lot like an US M60, when both are set to full auto.
BTW---the gunship helicopters in Vietnam that did rescue missions had M60 hanging out of the side doors. Those guns were deadly accurate.
Posted on Apr 6, 2002, 12:05 AM from IP address 24.205.20.15
signal flags (which doubled as range flags) or arm possitions to indicated direction and formation but we usually cheated and used the radio. Our combat interval was supposed to be a minimum 100 meters, or 50 meters in a road march. My memory is foggy though.
Posted on Apr 5, 2002, 4:59 PM from IP address 209.98.173.34
Their songs don't always rock, but they are evocative and the lyrics meaningful (in a good way, that is!) They sort of started the retro movement back to a 60's pop sound that so many other bands have followed in the footsteps of, including one of my all time greatest bands, The Flamin' Groovies, and of course, much later on and a whole 80's garage/powerpop/psych movement later, Teenage Fanclub, who have put out one terrific album after another. 
Glad you got them okay, what's your favorite parts so far? 
Hope you have a good one!!
