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There We Go

September 7 2003 at 11:06 AM
Sirian  (no login)
from IP address

Response to Faith, and a great many things.

Struck a nerve, I see. Good. Getting past the crust and down to the mantle. Still a long way to the core, though.

Every single major figure in the Bible was NOT a good man.

Straw man on THREE levels. Very good. At least we're up past the elementary school rationalizations.

1) Your applied definition of "good man" is erroneous.
2) Despite my urging you to spare us both, you are STILL going to try the "if that makes me a bad person" defense? If you insist.
3) Since the Bible had zero to do with my criticisms of you, you will not be able to counter those criticisms by begging the question with Biblical references.

Your post is a rationalization, and I will prove it.

* If a "good man" is a man without sin, there are no good men.

* Your "good person"/"bad person" concept is flawed, oversimplified. People are neither good nor bad, but a combination of both, based on the choices they make. You slough off criticism by implying that if the criticism were true, it would make you a bad person; and since you aren't a bad person, that must mean the criticism is false. Bald flaw on your logic, there, Doc.

* You try to further muddle the issue by confusing "good person" with "bad person", to claim that nobody of consequence in the Bible was a "good person" anyway, but secretly they were, because those were the chosen of god, and they turned out in the end to be the instruments of greatest good.

Am I the brightest flame? No. I have a LONG way to go before I am on par with any of those people. I don't think I have stumbled quite enough to be in their league, but, that's ok. God accepts people inspite of their shortcomings.

Wow, what en ego you have, Doc. Not only do you compare yourself directly to all the major figures of the Bible, you one-up them by not being quite as heinously rotten of an apple as them to start with -- which makes you what? Even better than them? Brassy. I'll give you that. Big brass ones, you have.

I don't think you are giving yourself enough credit. You are a more rotten apple than you let on.

Hmm if I was to follow the WWJD, "What Would Jesus Do" bit, I guess I would need to grab a cat o nine tails and drive the blue hairs and the stuffed shirts who are dispicable evil sorts of the ministry. I'll get it on the To Do List.

I see that I've become one of your Blue Hairs now. How quick you are to turn that razor wit, replete with melodramatic insult, upon anybody you see as adversary. Oh, the satire. Stings, of course, that you are dismissing my remarks so flippantly. But you already knew that. Didn't you?

Here, let me turn other cheek toward you. You can hit a little harder if you wind up first. Put your shoulder into it this time.

A house devided against it self cannot stand. How does evil drive out evil? It can't.

Stalin drove Hitler out of Russia.

Russia drove the Tatars (Mongols) out of their lands after suffering a few centuries under their brutal rule.

The slave-owning colonists in America drove out the British.

A murderer of homosexuals strangled Father Geoghan in jail in Massachusetts a week or two ago.

Shall I go on?

If the vanquishing of anything evil automagically conferred goodness upon the victor, then yes, your rationale would hold an ounce of water. If wishes were horses, we'd all ride.

NO good thing can come from evil. Well, if that's the case, if we follow a certain somebody's logic, most of the Bible can't exist. It was written by some very eeeeeeevil people.


Either the Bible is the One True Word of God, divinely inspired AS IT CLAIMS TO BE, or... indeed it was written by men and holds no special magic, merely a collection of writings that, like the men who wrote it, contain both truth and falsehood, both goodness and evil, both right and wrong.

You seem to have confused me with a Christian, Doc. Did you lapse into some automatic response mechanism and forget who you are arguing with here?

Besides, I never claimed that no good thing can come from evil. That's just another one of those illogical blanket mechanisms you use to dismiss inconvenient truths and shield yourself from scrutiny. That won't play with me.

I claimed that good is stronger than evil, which is something you CLEARLY do not believe. At last we have that right out in the open, with you openly defending evil as stronger. You even claim that god favors evil men through which to do all his bidding, because the "good" ones are too weak to get anything done.

Wow, what a tangled web you weave. Been shoveling shit for so long, you can't tell the difference any more. But shit don't shine, Doc, and I know it when I smell it. You will not so easily dismiss me, now that I have your core and fatal flaw right out in the open where we can have a look at it together.

Yes, while it would be nice to put them to the sword, and have them gutted, their heads placed on spikes around my home, I would rather not. That's out of my reach. I guess I am not quite evil enough, nor manly enough, to be like an Old Testament Hero.

Evil as hero. Doc's philosophy in a nutshell. Got his own rationale, ole Doc does, behind which he can hide, using sarcasm to fend off questions, using insults and scorn to deter anybody who would dare to hold him accountable for his methods.

If I am so evil, might as well not be candy coated evil

Ooh, there it is again! Maybe if you repeat this straw man to yourself enough times, Doc, you can ignore what I have to say and keep on pretending I'm saying something else instead. Go ahead, argue against that straw man, beat up on him. Impress the yokels. When you get done whipping on the dummy, I will still be here, and you will still believe that evil is stronger and more effective than good.

If I am so evil, might as well not be candy coated evil, but instead Campbells Mmm Mmm Mmm Good Evil™. Why then, my star could be so much brighter!

Only weak evil craves outside validation. Insidious evil is stealthy evil, content to pretend to be good on its face so it can better infiltrate, to manipulate and control, to dominate more effectively. The worst kind of evil is content to know that it is superior without needing the approval of inferiors to confirm it. That evil gloats quietly, in its own mind.

We all have a streak of that in us. That is what makes this game of life so interesting. And the fact that I have wrestled so often with mine, made it my business to improve my character, to grow, to strive toward choosing to reject the temptations, means I've learned how to spot its games, its lies, its schemes and little skits -- in myself, and thus by extension in others, too.

So who are you trying to fool here? Me? Keep trying. Yourself? Maybe to some extent. But no, not that much, because you can't have this complex of a rationale for your own shit unless you've dragged it out into the open before and DECIDED to embrace it, excuse it, prop it up and dress it up and parade it around, pretending it is something else.

But it still comes back to a firm, rooted belief in the power of evil. What doesn't add up is, if you think so highly of evil, why do you fight so strongly against some types of evil? What? Your brand of evil is secretly chosen of god? All one needs is a belief in the nobility of the cause, and suddenly any method is OK to use to get there?

No, your position is not quite so simple. I understand that, so don't mistake ME for posing a straw man when I am not. Your position is that if the net total is good, then the evil was worth using. So when you pursue an important good, like preventing someone from starving to death or freezing to death, that's a strong enough good to "warrant" the use of a certain amount of evil.

And you construct these little skits. You set up melodramatic hypotheticals to rationalize it. "If I don't feed this person, they will starve!" Maybe true here or there, but not across the board for all that you do.

And that's the trouble with evil. You can't just take a little bit. It grows on you. You take a shortcut and justify it as worthwhile, but the mind is prone to twisting reality to fit with its own beliefs. So... in order to justify all the shortcuts you have grown accustomed to taking, you NEED a world full of evil to battle against. You NEED emergencies, crises blowing up all around you. You NEED problems, because without the intensity, the severity, you lose the justification for the crap stunts you pull, to which you are addicted. You crave the cheap power hits you get when you dominate and manipulate others. That's the dark side of you that seizes control briefly, in between the times when the real Doc is working at something good. Jekyll and Hyde, you slip in and out of your monster costume as you pick up or set down your whip.

And that's where the problem comes in, Doc. That's where you start propping up evil instead of banishing it. That's where you end up defending evil, insisting on its power, its effectiveness. You NEED that insistence to cover your own ass, because without it, you'd HAVE TO CHANGE. And change is the last thing you want.

I'll get it on my To Do List. I'll get around to it someday. **Note to self, plant battleaxe in the Old Battleaxes**

Go ahead, dismiss me. Insult me. Pretend my remarks are so absurd, so far off the mark, you can rightly scorn the entire concept. Persecute me.

If I've overestimated you, that will come out here soon enough. And if so, then I'll stop. You can cling to your rationale if it means that much to you. I will never forcably rip it away from you. Jury's still out on that one, though, so I wait and I watch, looking for openings. I'm patient. I will wait years for the right opening, then rush in and seize the day before you can sort out what hit you.

All I ask is that you take a little time, look past the initial self-defense mechanisms you're tossing out at me here, and sit with it a while.

Not everybody who shovels shit can keep their hands clean. Old Southern Proverb.

Another straw man. I'm not looking at your hands, fool. Since when did stable work stain the heart?

You are full of cliches and short on wisdom. About time you started challenging more of your core assumptions. Put a few of those old beliefs to the test, you might learn they aren't up to the job. Or does that prospect scare you too much? You are certainly acting scared. Got the hatches battoned down and guns loaded. Not sure where to aim, though, are you? This isn't how the fight usually goes....

- Sirian

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