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SRBI SU ILIRI !

July 15 2007 at 4:11 PM
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Zecanin  (Login Zecanin)
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SRBI SU ILIRI !

Profesor Djordje Vojnovic, zajedno sa ekipom strucnjaka raznih profila, tokom protekle decenije vrsio je antropoloska istrazivanja na osnovu kojih je dosao do saznanja da su Srbi, Hrvati, Slovenci i Albanci ustvari ILiri

Mi smo izdanci ovog podneblja i stanujemo ovdje milenijumima, tvrdi autor nove knjige "Ilirska krv" koja ce razbiti vjekovnu zabludu da su pripadnici srpskog naroda porijeklom Sloveni. Knjiga je multidisciplinarna studija o porijeklu ljudi koji zive na podrucju zapadnog Balkana, a njeni autori su eminentni strucnjaci: istoricari, arheolozi, antropolozi, geneticari, lingvisti i sociolozi. Idejni tvorac knjige je Djordje Vojnovic, profesor na Gutembergovom univerzitetu u Majncu, u Njemackoj.

-Najveci dio stanovnistva bivse Jugoslavije pripada tzv. dinarskom antropoloskom tipu cije je porijeklo autohtono i koje ne treba traziti van balkanskih prostora- kaze Vojnovic.

-Ovdje obitavamo u stvari vise od osam hiljada godina. Nazivu naseg dominantnog antropoloskog tipa (dinarski) kumovali su francuski antropolozi krajem 19. vijeka, na osnovu cinjenice da ljudi ovog tipa zive hiljadama godina duz dinarskog planinskog sistema. Karakteristika ovog tipa je, strucno receno, brahikranizacija, sto jednostavnim rjecnikom znaci kratkoglavost. Poredjenja radi Nordijci ili Mediteranaci su dugoglavi, odnosno jajoglavi. Na osnovu visedecenijskih ispitivanja, dosli smo do zakljucka da se prve lobanje ovakvog oblika na ovim prostorima pojavljuju jos u neolitskom periodu, znaci prije osam hiljada godina. U bronzanom dobu, prije cetiri do pet hiljada godina, one su brojnije, dok se u starijem gvozdenom dobu, pocetkom prvog milenijuma stare ere, vec identifikuje jezgro brahikranizacije na centralnom dijelu Balkana. Taj proces formiranja karakteristicnog oblika lobanje nije poremecen ni vladavinom Rimljana na ovim prostorima, niti velikom seobom naroda u 4. vijeku, a kamoli mdolaskom slovenskih plemena, vec kontinuirano traje i danas.
Savremeno stanovnistvo bivse Jugoslavije odlikuje se navecim indeksom brahikranizacije u Evropi. Takodje je pogresna i teza da je osmanlijska vladaviana ostavila dubok trag u genetskom smislu. Istoricari tvrde, a genetika ce to i dokazati, da smo mi i Turci zivjeli vise jedni pored drugih, nego jedni sa drugima.-

Sto se tice granica na kojima se prostire nas dinarski ili, kako se to cesto kaze, ilirski tip. Vojnovic istice:

-Jos tridesetih godina proslog vijeka, engleski antropolog Kun je utvrdio da se dinarski (ilirski) tip prostire na jugu do rijeke Mati u Albaniji, dok se dalje od te rijeke prostire meditreanski tip. Na sjeverozapadu gornju granicu rasprostiranja cine Alpi.
Dakle od Alpa do rijeke Mati u Albaniji, svi smo iste gore list - Ilirske!-

Na primjedbe nekih lingvista da mi govorimo slovenskim jezikom, te da je to bitan pokazatelj naseg slovenskog porijekla, Vojnovic kaze:

-Mi jesmo linvoslavi, ali taj jezik je jedino sto smo dobili od Slovena. Sa njima nemamo druge veze, jer su Sloveni drugi (dugoglavi) antropoloski tip koji se lako razdvaja od nas sarosjedelaca. Sve do 12. vijeka, na ovim prostorima nema mijesanja sa novopridoslim Slovenima. Do populacionih mijesanja dolazi tek sa osmanlijskom okupacijom, ali i tada ne u potpunosti.-

Zanimljivo misljenje Vojnovic iznosi i o naucnim zabludama koje su se provlacile kroz vjekove:

-Konstantin Porfirogenit, vizantijski car i istoricar, pominje da su Sloveni doselili na Balkansko poluostrvo krajem 6 i pocetkom 7. vijeka, ali zaboravlja na pomjeranje starosjedelackog stanovnistva na zapad i u planine. Mnogi istoricari isticu da se to starosjedelacko stanovnistvo u srednjem vijeku utopilo u Slovene. Pri tom oni misle na Vlahe koji su se kao stocari povukli u planinske predjele. Dogodilo se upravo suprotno, ti Vlasi, odnosno brahikefalni dinarci su u migracijama tokom 18. i 19. vijeka preplavili Srbiju. Nas cuveni naucnik Jova Cvijic govori o najjacoj selidbenoj struji koja je tekla iz planinskih djelova Hercegovine, Crne Gore i Raske na prostore danasnje Srbije.

Poznati istoricar Ivan Bozic takodje je jedan od rijetkih koji je opisao doprinos Vlaha (dinaraca) u oblikovanju Crne Gore. On takodje spominje povlacenje starosjedelaca pred najezdom Slovena i daje podatke o priticanju "vlaskih stocara" iz Hercegovine u Crnu Goru i njihovom dominantnom uticaju u formiranju crnogorskog drustva, a putem vec pomenutih migracija - i srbijanskog drustva. Poslije tog perioda, njihova etnicka posebnost se ne priznaje, i smatra se da su se oni utopili u Slovene. Izuzetk cine samo malobrojni neasimilovani Vlasi koji su naselili poducje uz rumunsku granicu.

Interesantno je da se u zakonima Srbije, iz ranog srednjeg vijeka, Vlasi spominju i kao etnicka kategorija i kao stocarsko stanovnistvo, dok se u Dusanovom zakoniku pominju samo kao stocarski zivalj.

Analizirajuci porijeklo bar jednog roditelja i pri tom ispitujuci zastupljenost markera HLA-B gena, genetska istrazivanja dokazuju da je najveci procenat stanovnistva zapadnog Balkana (74 odsto) ima dinarski antigen. Populaciona genetika je tek u povoju, ali i na sadasnjem nivou se moze zakljuciti da je broj gena karaktersican za slovensko stanovnistvoi, bar po Vojnovicevim podacima, na ovim prostorima minimalan.

-Svaka grupa naroda sadrzi neke karakteristicne gene, prije svega zbog toga sto se mijesaju medjusobno, pa dolazi do genetskih ekvilibrijuma, zbog cega ljudi u okviru jedne zajednice po nekim crtama pocinju da lice jedni na druge i bivaju prepoznatljivi. Tako se kaze da su Sloveni mahom plavi, a Mediteranci tamnije puti. Mi Iliri, odnosno Dinarci, takodje imamo svoj geneticki ekvilibrijum, pa shodno tome i svoje specificnosti, koje je Cvijic bez poznavanja genetike otkrio. Ova istrazivanja iz oblasti populacione genetike bice krunski dokaz da nijesu Sloveni asimilirali Ilire, vec se dogodilo sasvim obrnuto.-

---------------------------------------

-Srbi i Albanci su braca - tvrdi profesor Vojnovic, - I mi i oni, kao sto sam dokazivao, starosjedelackog (ilirskog) smo porijekla. Jedino sto ne govorimo istim jezikom, a to je s toga sto su Albanci bili manje u dodiru sa Slovenima, te nijesu primili njihov jezik. Nedavno je izasla knjiga cuvenog svjetskog albanologa Petera Bartla koji ponovo dokazuje, da postoji vise nego jasan kontinuitet izmedju Ilira i danasnjih Albanaca. Slovenska najezda je i nas i njih potisnula za neko vrijeme u nepristupacne planine i natjerala nas da se bavimo stocarstvom. Vremenom smo i mi i oni poceli da se sirimo. Arheoloska i antropoloska istarzivanja nijesu dokazala nikakvu razliku izmedju Srba i Albanaca. Naprotiv, zajedno smo svrstani u isti tip koji se sa Mediterancima "sudara" tek na vec pomenutoj rijeci Mati u juznoj Albaniji.

--------------------------------------------

-Istoricari vecinom pogresno smatraju da izraz Vlah nema nikakvo nacionalno znacenje i da on zapravo oznacava sve balkanske nomadske stocare, i da su stoga pravoslavni stocari iz zapadnih djelova Balkana, zapravo pravi Sloveni - istice Djordje Vojnovic.

-Ali istoricari mogu i da pogrijese , a dokaz za to je i potpuno ispravan naziv hrvatskog nacionalnog pokreta iz 19. vijeka - Ilirski pokret. Zvanicna istoriografija smatra da je to nesrecan izbor naziva, jer je u to vrijeme, po njihovom misljenju, vladala zabluda da su svi narodi sa ovih prostora potomci Ilira. Ironija je da su Hrvati prije 200 godina bili blizi istini, nego savremena istoriografija.-

-------------------------------------------------

V. Arsenijevic

http://forum.krstarica.com/archive/index.php/t-69240.html


Dinarska Rasa


    
This message has been edited by Zecanin on Jul 15, 2007 4:12 PM


 
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Origins of the Serbs !

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January 21 2008, 8:27 AM 

Serbs are a South Slavic people, living mainly in Serbia, Montenegro and Bosnia and Herzegovina. The ethnonym Serbs possibly has a different root. There are several theories about the origin of the Serb people, which could be roughly divided into Slavic theory and non-Slavic theories. Among the non-Slavic theories, most widely accepted is the Iranian theory , since the first mention of a tribe called Serboi in history locates them in the northern Caucasus among the Iranian peoples.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theories_on_the_origin_of_the_Serbs

 
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Re: SRBI SU ILIRI !

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January 21 2008, 8:29 AM 

Earliest historical records of names similar to "Serb"

Here are a few of the earliest quotations from well known ancient geographers and historians:

* Rig Veda - ancient religious Sanskrit text (3000-1500 b.c.)in book VIII., 32., 2.:

"2 Strong God, he slew Anarsani, Srbinda, Pipru, and the fiend, Ahisuva, and loosed the floods." From all the European peoples the Serbs are the only race from the construction of the wording of their name, according to the Austrian sanskritologist Walter Wust who are composed in the Vedic hymns as the characteristic SRBINDA, in which almost letter to letter is identical to the modern form SRBENDA used by Balkan Serbs.

In the Vedic manuscripts, Wust interprets, SRBINDA as its own original to say patented name with a predetermined meaning. Which is in complete harmony to thinking of today’s SRBENDA expression in Serbs, because Srbenda is always the best, the most respected, most brave, the greatest for respecting tradition: in short a man who is used and shown as an example to others.

* Herodotus (11,6) (5th century BC), and Diodor from Sicily (1,30) mention the lake named Serbonis (Σερβυνιδοζ) in lower Egypt. However taking the large distances into the account it is highly unlikely that today's Serbs have anything to do with that particular toponym.

* Strabo (63 - 19 BC): "the river Kanthos/Skamandros is called Sirbis (Sirbika) by the natives." ( Strabonis rerum geographicarum libri septendicini, Basileza 1571 s. 763).

* Tacitus (ca. 50 AD): described the Serboi tribe near the Caucasus, close to the hinterland into the Black Sea. Many consider this theory as a very probable one taking some distant linguistic similarities with today's Caucausus people's such as Ingushi, Chechens etc.

* Pliny (69-75 AD): "beside the Cimerians live Meotics, Valians, Serbs (Serboi), Zingians, Psesians." (Historia naturalis, VI, c. 7 & 19 Leipzig 1975). It coincides with the Tacitus's view on Serbian ancient homeland among the Iranian peoples of the Caucasus.

* Ptolemy (150 AD): "between the Keraunian mountains and the river Pa, live the Orineians, Valians and Serbs." (Geographia V, s. 9). Ptolemy also mention the city in Pannonia named Serbinum (present day Gradiška in Republika Srpska, Bosnia and Herzegovina). This well known ancient scientist one more time points out to the Caucasus placing Serbs close to Black Sea riviera.

* In the third century Roman emperor Licinius referred to the Carpathians as 'Montes Serrorum' ("Serb mountains"). This also sounds reasonable taking that South Carpathians end in Eastern Serbia, colliding with the Balkan Mountains.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theories_on_the_origin_of_the_Serbs

 
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Re: SRBI SU ILIRI !

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January 21 2008, 8:29 AM 

The Slavic theory about the origin of the Serb name

There is a theory that the name Serbs was a designation for all Slavic peoples in history. The earliest possible association of Serbi with Slavs is from Procopius (6th century), who says that Antae and Sclavenes (Slavs) originally had the common name Sporoi, which has been claimed as a corruption of Srbi (Serbs). The Serbs came from the north from what is now the Czech Republic region. Serb may trace back to the Altai root word Ser-dust, sand. [1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theories_on_the_origin_of_the_Serbs

 
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Re: SRBI SU ILIRI !

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January 21 2008, 8:31 AM 


 
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Re: SRBI SU ILIRI !

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January 21 2008, 8:34 AM 

The Iranian theory of the origin of Serb people

The original Serboi were probably Sarmatian (Iranian) tribe, who lived in Eastern Europe (Sarmatia Asiatica), to the north of the Caucasus. The earliest historical records about these Sarmatian Serbs dates from the 1st century, in the works of the historian Tacitus (ca. 50 AD) and geographer Pliny (Plinius) (69-75 AD).

In the fourth century, these Sarmatian Serbs, together with Huns and Alans, moved to Central Europe, and were found dwelling near the Elbe, in a region designated as White Serbia, in what is now Saxony (eastern Germany) and western Poland. The Sarmatian Serbs, it is argued, intermarried with the indigenous Slavs of the region, adopted their language, and transferred their name to the Slavs. Since the white colour was designation for the west, name White Serbia actually could mean 'Western Serbia'.

Byzantine sources report that part of the Serbs (already a Slavic people by that time) then migrated southward in the seventh century and eventually settled in the lands that now make up southern Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia, and Herzegovina. In this region, Serbs mixed with other Slavic tribes (which settled there in the sixth century) and with descendants of indigenous peoples of the Balkans.

Rival chiefs, or župani, vied for control of the Serbs for five centuries after the migration. Župan Vlastimir formed a Serbian principality under the Byzantines around 850, and the Serbs soon converted to Christianity. The Serbs had two political centers in the eleventh century: Zeta, in the mountains of present-day Montenegro, and Raška, located in modern southwestern Serbia.

Another part of the Serbs did not migrate southwards, but remained in the Elbe region. Descendants of these Serbs are the present day Lusatian Serbs/Sorbs, who still live in the Lusatia (Lužica, Lausitz) region of eastern Germany.

It is possible that the proto-Serbs in Sarmatia were similar to other Sarmatian/Iranian peoples on the northern Caucasus, such as the Alans, and spoke an Indo-European Iranian language similar to present-day Ossetian. At some point in the history of the Serbs, this Old Serb language stood side by side with the Slavic language in White Serbia (mentioned by the Byzantine emperor, Constantine Porphyrogenitus), and likely even in the first 300 years leading up to the formation of the Serb state in the Balkans in the 9th century. Even to this day, the Serbian language has at least a third as many words in its vocabulary than other Slavic languages. This is because of the influence of Old Serb and Illyrian as well as Turkish on the Slavic language spoken by the Serbs today.

What was the origin of the Sarmatian Serbs? Since the modern Ossetian language derived from ancient Sarmatian, we can search for the origin of Sarmatians if we compare relationships between languages of Iranian stock. The Ossetian language is a member of Eastern Iranian branch of Iranian languages, along with Pashtun, Yaghnobi and languages of the Pamir. The original homeland of the Sarmatians was probably in the region where these eastern Iranian languages are spoken today, somewhere between Afghanistan, Tajikistan and Pakistan.

The Byzantine Emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogenitos, in his Book Of Ceremonies, calls the Croats and Serbs "Krevatas and Sarban", who were located between Alania and Tsanaria. Ṣārbān is also the name of a Pashtun tribe in Afghanistan, who are believed to be - at least in part - of Scythian descent.

Today it is suggested that the modern Serbs and Croats were Slavs living in modern Poland who assimilated the upper-class of the migrating Sarmatian tribes, who subsequently lent their names (Hrvat/Croat and Srb/Serb). Early in Polish history, the Polish nobility claimed to be direct descendants of the historic Sarmatian people. White Serbia and White Croatia, the original homelands of the Serb and Croat peoples before their migration to the Balkans, were located, respectively, in the territories of modern Poland, Bohemia, and eastern Germany (see Sorbs). This suggests an immediate link between the two Sarmatian-origin theories, but fails to provide a confirmation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theories_on_the_origin_of_the_Serbs

 
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Re: SRBI SU ILIRI !

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January 21 2008, 8:35 AM 


 
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Re: SRBI SU ILIRI !

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January 21 2008, 8:36 AM 

Alarodian theory

Some theories dismisses the Iranian theory because it is based solely on the fact that the area where the Serboi ethnonym is first mentioned (near the Sea of Azov) was home to the Iranian Sarmatians, and this led historians to falsely jump to the conclusion that the Serboi themselves were also Iranian. Mandić notes that Pliny himself does not state that the Serboi are of Iranian stock. If the Serbs were an Indo-Iranian people, Pliny probably would have said so. Furthermore, the non-Slavic substrate in modern Serbian is not Iranian.

In the Balkans during Roman rule, there was a city called Gordoserbon, which was assumed to derive from "city of the Serbs", gord being the Slavic word for city. However, it seems unlikely the Latin-speaking Romans would use the Slavic word for city to name one of their cities. Mandić proposes that Gordoserbon actually gets its name from the city of Gordium, the capital of Phrygia, which he claims is the ancient homeland of the Serbs. Gordium was situated near the ancient Lydian city of Sardis. Sardis was the capital of Lydia, an ancient empire located in present day Turkey. The Lydians spoke an Anatolian language.

The Alarodian languages include two long extinct languages, the Hurrian language and the Urartian language. The Hurrian language is believed to have had a strong influence on some of the Anatolian languages, notably the Hittite language, and it is believed that Hurrians were actually not indigenous there, but were new arrivals who assimilated an earlier people who called themselves the Subar-tu. The language of these Subar-tu, whose name is not recorded, is called Subarian by linguists today, and it is believed that there was a Subarian substratum in the Hurrian language. Sumerian records mention the Subartu. Much later, Persian records mention the Sabarda, and the ancient Greek historian Herodotus mentions the Sabir in the same area, although it is not clear what, if any, connection the Sabir/Sabarda have to the Subar-tu, or if the similar-sounding names are just coincidental. According to Mandić, the Serbs get their name from those ancient Subartu.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theories_on_the_origin_of_the_Serbs

 
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Re: SRBI SU ILIRI !

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January 21 2008, 8:37 AM 

Traces and possible migrations of Serbs

The Serbs were mentioned as Serboi by Pliny the Younger in his Geographica in the first century AD (69-75) as living on the Black Sea and the Sea of Azov. In the 5th century, Herodotus writes in his Persian Wars that Serbs (Serboi, Sirboi) live behind the Caucasus, near the hinterland of the Black Sea. In the fourth century the Carpathians are mentioned as Montes Serrorum (Serb mountains?) by the Roman emperor Licinius.

In the Caucasus, the homeland of the Sarmatian Serbs, they left their traces around the river Volga (Araxes in Greek). In modern Georgian, that river is called "Rashki". This name was used by Balkan Serbs as a name for their first state and is found wherever the name Serb is found in clusters indicating settlements. It is often used to designate hydronyms and likely meant 'river' or 'water' in Old Serb.

The Serbs possibly migrated in two directions from the Caucasus, northwest and northeast. Those who went northwest became overlords of the Slavs. There they established a mighty empire and became slavicized. Konstantine Porfirogenitus called this "White Serbia". Their descendants are known as Lusatian Serbs today and despite Germanization, a few thousand still remain on the territory of former East Germany. These we can also call 'White Serbs'.

There is a theory that the other branch of Sarmatian Serbs maybe moved northeast to the southern base of the Urals, and settled there for a time. We can call them 'Volga Serbs'. They possibly moved eastwards, deep into Siberia, leaving traces in the names towns along the coast of the Sea of Japan. They faded out with the onslaught from the Mongols. These we can call 'Siberian Serbs'. It is even possible that Siberia was named after this Old Serb tribe.

The White Serbs were probably completely Slavicized by the 6th century. Their Slavicized descendants are today's Lusatian Sorbs. One branch of these White Serbs have left White Serbia, and according to Porfirogenitus, came to the Balkans (7th century), invited by Heracleus, defeated the Avars and were given Macedonia to inhabit. There they took the already settled Slavs (who began arriving in the 5th and 6th centuries) under their control and mixed with them to form the modern Serb nation.

These Slavs, who came before the Serbs, had already assimilated the Illyrians, who were an Indo-European people. Many historians agree that the old Serbs were not Slavs, but a non-Slavic caste that ruled over the Slavs, though the Serbs who entered the Balkans in the 7th century, were mainly Slavs who had adopted the Serbian name.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theories_on_the_origin_of_the_Serbs

 
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Re: SRBI SU ILIRI !

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January 21 2008, 8:38 AM 

Relation with Sorbs

While Ukrainians and krajischniks (their names coming from Slavic word for "borderland") or Slovaks and Slovenes (obvious variations of "Slavs") need not be related, Serbs and Sorbs may well be. Some have taken this to the extreme, creating theories that link Serbs with Sarmatians, Sirmium, Serbona, Siberia and so on. Such theories do, however, tend to represent something of a fringe view.

The obvious similarities in their names leads some to conclude that Serbs and Sorbs are related peoples. Indeed, in the Serbian language Sorbs are called Lužički Srbi (Serbs of Lusatia) some historians call Sorbs White Serbs (if dichotomy exists Serbs are called "Red Serbs"; during The Great Migration Croats had a similar white-red dichotomy).

Exactly what the relations are between Serbs and Sorbs is not certain:

1. Some believe that Serbs came to the Balkans from Sorbia.
2. Some believe that Serbs came to the Balkans and Sorbs to Sorbia from a joint ancient fatherland. Where this fatherland might be is also uncertain.
3. Some believe that Serbs and Sorbs were one people at sometime but had separated before they moved to Serbia/Sorbia.
4. If we accept the claim that all Slavs have called themselves Serbs, then Serbs and Sorbs may not have anything more in common than any other two Slavic peoples.

Regardless of which is correct, the Serbs and Sorbs of today are very different peoples, with different customs, traditions and religions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theories_on_the_origin_of_the_Serbs

 
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Re: SRBI SU ILIRI !

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January 21 2008, 8:39 AM 

Possible connection with names of Sarmatians and Sabars

Some historians suggest the connection between the name of Serbs and names of Sarmatians and Sabars, though these theories are controversial.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theories_on_the_origin_of_the_Serbs

 
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Re: SRBI SU ILIRI !

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January 21 2008, 8:40 AM 

Name of Sarmatians

Some suggest that the name "Serb" is derived from the ancient homeland of Serbs, Sarmatia, an ancient country between the Vistula River and the Caspian Sea, occupied by the Sarmatians [Lat. Sarmatae] from the 3d cent. B.C. through to the 2d cent. A.D. The term is vague and is also used to refer to the territory along the Danube and across the Carpathians where the Sarmatians were later driven by the Huns. The Sarmatians, who until c.200 B.C. lived East of the Don River, spoke an Iranian language and were a nomadic pastoral people related to the Scythians (see Scythia), whom they displaced in the Don region. The main divisions were the Rhoxolani, the Iazyges, and the Alans or Alani. They came into conflict with the Romans but later allied themselves with Rome, acting as buffers against the Germans. They were scattered or assimilated with the Germans by the 3d cent. A.D.

The common Indo-European phonetic mutation possible allowed -m > -mb > -b from Sarmoi > Serboi. The name of Sarmatians may be derived from PIE Root / lemma: ker-6 and k̂er- : 'dark colour; dirt, etc'. ahd. horo, Gen. horawes, mhd. hor, hurwe `ordure, smut' (*kr̥-u-); ags. horh, Gen. horwes, ahd. horg `dirty, filthy' (*kr̥-k-u̯-o); aisl. horr m. ` nasal mucus, snot, smut'; ags. hrot m. ` snot ', ahd. hroz ds., asächs. hrottag `snotty'; ahd. ruoz, rouz, mhd. ruoz, ruost, asächs. hrot `smut'; ags. hrum m. `smut', asächs. hrum, mhd. PN Rum-olt;

Maybe Sarmoi > Serboi, Srb from lit. sarma `gray, white weasel' [common PIE b > w mutation]. Both root names Hrv (Croat) and Srb (Serb) are interchangeable: s > h, b > v phonetic mutations. Srb (Serb) could be the origin of the latter Hrv (Croat).

lit. šir̃vas `gray, greyish-blue' (*k̂r̥-u̯o-s), šir̃mas ds. (*k̂r̥-mo-s), lett. sirms `gray' (compare ai. śyā-má- `black, dark' besides śyā-vá- ds.); lit. šir̃vis `hare'; in addition lit. šarmà f. ` hoarfrost', lett. sarma, serma ds., lit. šarmuõ, šermuõ `ermine' (:ahd. harmo, ven.-illyr. carmō); šarmuonỹs m. `weasel', with ablaut ostlit. širmuonė̃lis ds., lett. sermulis m. `ermine'; The Indo-European root/lemma Root / lemma: ker-6 and k̂er- : 'dark colour; dirt, etc' could be a collective name for Sarmatea 'dark people'.

The origin of the name Sarmat could be also an Indo-European interpretation of Sabar (Sabat) common PIE b > mb > m phonetic mutation].

Serbs and Croats would retain their sumptuous Iranian names. Bosnia was populated by an Illyrian tribe called Besoi. Montenegro would be called by Serbs as Crna Gora 'black mountain'.

The origin of the name Serb from an Indo-European root seems most probable. Serbian toponyms in their homeland in the Caucasus are often remote to Slavic tongues, but close to Iranian.

Both names Serboi (Serb) and Hrvat (Croat) seem to have originated in ancient Iran. Even today, there is a Pashtun tribe in Afghanistan named Sarbans. They could be ancestors of the old Sarmatian Serbs.

Most probably, the origin of Serbs and Croats is Indo-European. Although they adopted the language of the Slavs and mixed with them, they preserved their original Iranian names. Franks, a Germanic tribe who had conquered Gaul also lost its ancient language against a numerically superior native population.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theories_on_the_origin_of_the_Serbs

 
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Re: SRBI SU ILIRI !

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January 21 2008, 8:41 AM 

Name of Sabar

Some suggest that the names of the Turkic Asian tribes Sabar and Kavar (*Havar) - Avar derived from the same root [common shift b > v, also allophones s/ h]. Thus, Sabars and Avars could be also descendants of Iranian Serbs (*Sabar) and Croats (Hrvat).

The remnant of Sabar, Avar excellent horsemanship in Turkish language was stamped in the cognate: tr. süvari ' cavalier, cavalry, cavalryman, chevalier, mounted troops, man'.

In the mid 5th C., Priskos Rhetor was the first to deal with the Sabar tribe which existed in the Western Siberian region. This supports the theory of the Sabar origin from the Balkhash region which is further supported by Chinese records concerning the related Hua tribes. According to Priscos's account, the Avar-Huns forced the Sabirs out of this land and over the Volga around 461-463CE because "a fog rose from the sea scaring people" and this was followed by countless "vultures descending upon the people". Then in 550, Zakharias Rhetor the church historian mentioned an "Avar" community in the west. Also in the mid 6th century, Menandros wrote about Avars. At the same time Procopius made a distinction in his History of the Wars, Books I and II, between White Huns and European Huns which Simokattes in the early half of the 7thC. defines as the real- and pseudo- avars respectively.

Based upon Simokattes's and other information, the Avars who entered Europe are thought to have been a combination of a Uyghur people called Hund[citation needed] and (because of the anthropological evidence as well as etymology on Avar Khagaan names like Bayan meaning "prosperous" in Mongol but meaning female in most western Altaic tongues) a Mongolian people called Var who united around Balk sometime between 410-470CE.

It has been determined through the unorganized information in various foreign resources that the Sabar Turkish community had played an important role in the Western Siberia and the northern region of the Caucasus in the 5th-6th centuries BC. This Turkish community were named as Sabar, Sabir, and Savir in the Byzantine resources and as Savır, Sabr, S(a)bir, Sibir, etc. in the Armenian, Syrian Christian, and Islamic resources.

There are allegations, which state that the Sabar people were of Slav or Mongolian or Finno-Ugrian origin. Recently, it has been suggested that they were Turks in origin in respect of the names that they hold and the historical and cultural characteristics. As a result of the labial attraction in various languages, the word of Sabar has been observed in various forms.

However, it is not very likely that the name of the Sabars come from the names of Sarbans or Serbs, which have Indo-European roots. The word of Sabar can be identified with Turkish language, and it was formulated as the addition of the suffix of +ar to the verb of "sab+ar" (=sap-ar= sapmak/ violate, deviate) (Some other examples are: Khazar, Bulgar, Kabar, etc). It has the meaning of "deviationist, defector, uncontrolled, free" and it is in compliance with the naming procedures among the Turks. Furthermore, the personal names pertaining to Sabar people are also Turkish. Balak, İlig-er, Bo-arık =Buğ-arık, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theories_on_the_origin_of_the_Serbs

 
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Re: SRBI SU ILIRI !

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January 21 2008, 8:42 AM 

Theory of modern-day Serbs origin

According to the theory based on the history, anthropology, and genetics, modern-day Serbs are an ethnic mix of three major different "peoples" and "races":

* Sarmatians (Serboi - Old Serbs, who mixed with Slavs in Lusatia, and who gave their name to the Slavs).
* Slavic peoples, including Slavic tribes which settled in the Balkans during the Avar invasion in the 6th century
* White Serbs (Sorbs of Lusatia), who settled in the Balkans in the 7th century, and who gave their name to the present-day Serbs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theories_on_the_origin_of_the_Serbs

 
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January 21 2008, 8:43 AM 

Literature

* Aleksandar M. Petrović, Kratka arheografija Srba, Novi Sad, 1994.
* Živko D. Petković, Prve pojave srpskog imena, Beograd, 1996.
* Lazar Šebek, Stari Srbi, Serbi sveske 2, Izdavač: Krim, Beograd, Ložionička 4.
* Lazo M. Kostić, O srpskom imenu, Srbinje - Novi Sad, 2000.
* Sava S. Vujić - Bogdan M. Basarić, Severni Srbi (ne)zaboravljeni narod, Beograd, 1998.
* Nikola Jeremić, Srpska zemlja Bojka, Zemun, 1993.
* Relja Novaković, Baltički Sloveni u Beogradu i Srbiji, Beograd, 1985.
* Relja Novaković, Još o poreklu Srba, Beograd, 1992.
* Relja Novaković, Srbi, Beograd, 1993.
* Relja Novaković, Srbi i njihovi pradavni srodnici, Beograd, 2000.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theories_on_the_origin_of_the_Serbs

 
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January 21 2008, 8:44 AM 

References on Ancient and Medieval Serbs

* Ernst Schwartz, Das Vordringen der Slawen nach Western, Südost-Forschungen, Band XV, Mönchen 1956
* Ernestus Brotuff, Chronica von den Salz-Bornen und Erbauung der Hall an der Sala... (Weiland J.J. 1554) in zwei Büchern Verfaset und Fleiss beschrieben. Hall in Sachsen 1679
* Franz Martin Pelzels Geschichte der Böhmen, von ältesten bis auf die neuesten Zeiten. Aus den besten einheimischen und auswärtigen Geschichtsschreibern, Kroniken und gleichzeitigen Handschriften zusammen getragen, Erster Theil, Vierte fortgesetzte Auflage, Prag 1817
* Franz Grabler. Aus dem Geschichtswerk des Laonikos Chalkokondilos. Europa im XV. Jahrhundert von Byzantinern gesehen. Byzantinische Geschichtsschreiber, Graz-Wien-Köln (1954)
* Friderici Wideburgii, Origines et antiquitates Marggraviatus Misnici... Halae Salicae 1734
* Franc. Xav. El. B. De Pejacsevich, Historia Serviae seu colloquia XIII de Statu Regni et religionis Serviae ab exordio ad finem, sive a saeculo VII ad XV. Auetore F.X. El. B. de Pejacsevich. Colocae MDCCXCVI (1796)
* Howorth. The Spread of the Slaves, The Journal of the Antropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland, vol. IX, London 1880, Part III The Northern Serbs or Sorabiens and the Obodriti
* Martin Kromer, De origine et rebus gestis Polonorum Iibri XXX (1555)
* Mauro Orbini, II regno De gli Slavi Hoggi corrottamente detti Schü-voni... In Pesaro MDCI (1601)
* Monumenta Germaniae Historica... Edidit G.H. Pertz. Tomus I-VI 1826-1844
* Nikolaus Volrab, Chronica von den Antiquiteten des Keisrlichen Stiftes/der Römische Burg und Stadt Marseburg... (Budišin 1556)
* Neuve Chronica Türkischer Nation von Türken selbst beschrieben Frankfurt am Mayn 1590
* Pomponii Melae de Chorographia Iibri tres recognovit Caroli;:- Fnck. Lipsiae 1880
* P.J. Schafariks, Slawische Alterthümer, II, Leipzig 1844
* Heinrich Kunstmann, Über die Herkunft der Polen von Balkan. Die Welt der Slawen, Halbsjahresschrift für Slavistik, Jahrgang XXIX, Heft 2, IV F. VIII, 2. München 1984
* Hana Skalovä, Topografickä mapa üzemi Obodricü a Veletu-Luticu ve svetle mistnfch Jmen. Vznik a pocätky Slovanü. Pracha 1965
* Joan Christopori de Jordan... De originibus Slavicis... Vindobonae MDCCXLV (1745)
* Joannes Simoni Vandalia a 1598. scripta. Mon. Ren germ, praecipue Cimbricarum et Megapolensium... T. I, Lipsiae 1739
* Joannis Bacmeisteri... Animadversiones Genealogico-Chronologico-hi-storico in Mareschalci Thurii Annalium Herulorum et Vandalorum Hbros septem. У збирци: Mon. ined. R.G. praecipue Cimbricarum, et Megapolensium... erui... Ernestus Joachim de Westphalen... Tomus I, Lipisae 1739
* Johann Georg Essigs Kurze Einleitung zu der allgemeinen und besonderen Welthistorie, aufs neue übersehen, vermehrt, und bis auf gegenwärtige Zeit fortgesetzte, von M. Johann Christian Walz, Prof. der Historie am Her-zogl. Gimnasio. Zehnte Ausgabe, Stuttgart 1777
* Karl Gottlob Anton, Erste Linien eines Versuches über die alten Slawen Ursprung, Sitten, Gebräuche, Meinungen und Kenntnisse. Ausgearbeitet von K.G. Anton, D. Leipzig 1783
* Karl Gottlob Anton, Geschichte der Teutschen Nazion, Erster Theil... Geschichte der Germanen, Leipzig 1793
* Karl Penka, Origines Ariacae, Linguistisch-ethnologische Untersuchungen zur ältesten Geschichte der arischer Völker und Sprache. Wien und Te-schen 1883
* Laskaris Kananos, Die Nordlandreise des Laskaris Kanons (Byz. Geschichtsschreiber)
* Ludwig Giesebrecht, Wendische Geschichten von der Karolingerzeit, Baltische Studien, Sechsten Jahrgang, Zweites Heft, Stettin 1839
* Lubomir E. Havlik, Einige Fragen der Ethnogcnese der Slawen im Lichte der römischen und byzantinischer Historiographie (1. Hälfte des 1. Jahrtausends), Berichte II (1970), Band III, Berlin 1973
* Blondi Flavii Foroiuliensis Historiarum de inclinatione Romanorum. Impressarum Venetiis Thomam Alexandrinum anno Salutis MCCCCLXXXiiii (1484) Kalendis Julii. Tu i Abreviatio Pii Pont max. supra decades Blondi ab Inclinatione Imperii usque ad tempora Joannis Vicesimi tertii Pont. max.
* Chronica von dem Antiquiteten des Stifftes/der Romische Burg und Stadt Marseburg/an der Salach by Türingen/mit viel alten schöne Historien und Geschichten/als sich etwan vor alten Zeiten in Sachsen/Türingen/Meis-sen/und zu Wenden begeben... Gedruckt zu Budisin durch Nicolaum Wolrab MDLVI (1556)
* Chronicon HoIIandiae de Hollandorum Repub. et Rebus Gestis com-mentarii Hugonis Grolii, Jani Dovsae patris, Jani Dovsae filii, Lugduni Ba-tavorum 1617
* Conjectus introduetionis, in notitiam Regni Hungriae Geographicam, Historicam, Politicam et Chronologicam, inde a prima Gentis et Regionis Hungaricae Originibus usque ad aetatem nostram. Breviter et succinte, per successions temporum, produetam Studio et Opera Joannis Tomka Szäszky, Posonii 1759
* Caroli Sigoni Histriarum de Occidentali imperio, libri XX... Cum Indice copiosissime rerum et Verborum, Basileae MDLXXIX (1579)
* Christophori Cellarii Smalkandcnsis Geographia Antiqua... 1687
* Chronici Zelandiae libri duo. Auetore Jacobo Eyndio. Domino Haem-stode et Midolburgi. Ex officino moulertiana MDCXXXIV (1634)
* Codex Pomeraniae diplomaticus. Herausgegeben von D. Karl Friedrich Wilhelm Hasselbach... und D. Johann Gottfried Ludwig Kosegarten, Greifswald 1862
* Chronicon Mundi (Correct Title): Regisrum huius operis libri chroni-corum cum figuris et imaginibus ab initio mundi. Norimbergae MCCCCXCIII (1493)
* Chronici Carionis a Philippo Melanthone aueti et expositi... (1532). Anno 1581, 1593 [Wittebergae] MOXCIII (1593)
* Cyriacus M. Spangenberg, Quenfurtische Chronica. Historischer Bericht, von der Aelten und Loblichen Herrschaft Quernfurt in Sachsen... vor und nach der Geburt Christi... In vier Bücher zusammengebracht durch M. Cyr. Spang. MDXC (1590)
* Dauidis Chytrej Chronicon Saxoniae et vicini orbis aretoi. Pars prima. Ab anno Christi 1500 usque ad 1524 cum indice. Rostochii anno CIDIDXCII (1592)
* Dissertatio de Lecho et Slavorum origine video meliora, proboque. Acta Societatis Jablonovianae de Slavis Lecho Czechoque. Item de Veris Zichis. Anni CIDIDCCLXXI (1771)
* C. Desjardins: Physisch-Statistisch und Politischer Atlas von Europa, C. Desjardins, Wien, 1838.
* Über die Abkunft der Slawen nach Lorenz Surowiecki von Paul Joseph Schaffarik, Doct. der Phil. und der f. k. Mag., Prof. am Gymnasium der Griech. n. un. Gemeinde in Neusatz, und der kön. Ges. der Freunde der Wiss. in Warschau, der Gel. Ges. an der Univ. in Krakau und der Gross-herz. lat. Soc. in Jena corr. Mitgliede. Leipzig, 1843
* Kiepert's Handatlas, Dietrich Reimer, Berlin, 1860.
* A. Stieler: Handatlas, Justus Perthes, Gotha, 1866
* Kiepert's Atlas Antiques, Geographisches Institut, Weimar, 1884
* Nikodim Milaš: Православна Далмација (OrtodoxDalmatia), Izdavačka knjižarnica Novi Sad, 1901
* Кonstantin Jeriček: Историја Срба (History of Serbs), I-II, (photoiphya), Слово љубве, Београд, 1978
* Early references to Serboi: Alexander Kazhdan, Oxford Dictionary of Byzantium (1991), vol.3, pp.1875f.
* Ivo Vukcevich: Rex Germanorum Populos Sclavorum (An Inquiry into the Origin and Early History of the Serbs/Slavs of Sarmatia, Germania and Illyria), Universiyu Center Press, Santa Barbara, 2001
* Aleksandar J. Vukosavljević: Neka zapažanja o 30. glavi De administrando imperio — analiza izvora i osvrt na jedan dio istoriografije, Cape Town, 2004

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theories_on_the_origin_of_the_Serbs

 
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Re: SRBI SU ILIRI !

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January 21 2008, 8:46 AM 


 
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