This is a letter written by Teodosij who was a Metropolitan in the Exarchate church in Skopje. He wanted a Macedonian Church in which the language to be used should have been Macedonian.

Please read the letter:



Taken from Discourses of Collective Identity in Central and Southeast Europe (1770-1945) edited by Balázs Trencsényi, Michal Kopeček, page 191-193.



This letter is clearly diffrentiating between Macedonians and the other Balkan nations, it also very clearly highlights the propaganda that is thrown at the Macedonians, especially the Bulgarian one.


I hope you all enjoy the read.

Show and the context please

""Collective Identity in Central and Southeast Europe 1770-1945""

The title of that Church was "Prima Justiniana...ArchBishopric of Ohrid and all Bulgarians"

Did that Teodosij know that Holy Bible states that Macedonians were (always) Greeks??: http://www.network54.com/Forum/415923/message/1175463099

Istor
Solun or Thessaloniki?
Conflict about Macedonian name

Akritas what context are you talking about theese are the original letters translated into english.

Please Akritas show me the context of this document.... please.


You have to understand we were there, if you like it or not.

"The title of that Church was "Prima Justiniana...ArchBishopric of Ohrid and all Bulgarians""

Bulgar had a dual meaning, the newer meant Bulgarian by nationallity the older meant simply Christian and/or Slav.

The term was propagated by Bulgaria as propaganda.

"Bulgar had a dual meaning, the newer meant Bulgarian by nationallity the older meant simply Christian and/or Slav."


This is a modern interpretation backed by you.
Did Dame Gruev know that?

http://hi-story.org.mk/2.htm


Istor
Solun or Thessaloniki?
Conflict about Macedonian name

Arxileas, you obviously avoid other census' during the times which speak for the Macedonian existence, maybe you should do a little reearch into the Greek census of the 20's, I am sure you will be humbly suprised to see that in it are listed MAKEDONOGLOSSA - MACEDONIAN SPEAKERS.


Were you aware of this Arxi? Were you aware of all the other Greeks who refered to my language as Macedonian well before the 40's? If it was OK for them, why is not OK for the modern neo-Hellene to accept?

I mean, we don't go around and strictly refer to your people as Romans even though that was the only identity you had for a couple millenia do we.

Za nea nie se borime, za nea nie umreme, Makedonija, 20 Juli

"""Arxileas, you obviously avoid other census' during the times which speak for the Macedonian existence, maybe you should do a little reearch into the Greek census of the 20's, I am sure you will be humbly suprised to see that in it are listed MAKEDONOGLOSSA - MACEDONIAN SPEAKERS."""

Well if this were true why didn't you supply us some sources of the so called census's you mention which proves your argument, that are some how inviable to all but to you?

I guess they don't exist and you just wasted how many minutes of your life proving what? nothing. Wake up KOMI bre. This Macedonia ethnos as being separate from the Greek identity is a myth created very recently.

There you go again, look here you fool I didn't remove any of your posts from this thread. Except this one for your blatant disrespect of MACEDONIANS.

"""Forget about the rest son, your ancestors called my people MACEDONIANS."""

Did they now? You mean like;

http://www.network54.com/Forum/335372/thread/1160575835/last-1165366998/Emmanuil+Papas-+A+Real+Macedonian+Hero

EMMANUEL PAPAS[1773-1821]

Leader of 1821 in Makedonia


"""So I take it you are not going to address the above GREEK SOURCES THAT SPEAK OF MACEDONIANS AND MACEDONIAN LANGUAGE?"""

You fail to recognise the Turkish cencus etc; and what about Kuzman Shapkarev?

Kuzman Shapkarev was the greatest collector and publisher of ethnographic material in Vardar Macedonia. Born in the city of Ohrid, he spent some 30 years (1855-84) as a teacher in this part of Macedonia. He published
hundreds of articles and monographs on the dialects and folklore in the Periodic Journal of the Bulgarian Academy of Sciences (Bqlgarskoto Knijovno Drujestvo). His major work is "Sbornik ot bqlgarski narodni umotvoreniya" in
three volumes, Sofia, 1891-94.

In a letter to Prof. Marin Drinov of May 25, 1888
Kuzman Shapkarev writes:

"But even stranger is the name Macedonians, which was imposed on us only 10 to 15 years ago by outsiders, and not as something by our own intellectuals... Yet the people in Macedonia know nothing of that ancient name, reintroduced today with a cunning aim on the one hand and
a stupid one on the other. They know the older word: "Bugari", although mispronounced: they have even adopted it as peculiarly theirs, inapplicable to other Bulgarians. You can find more about this in the
introduction to the booklets I am sending you. They call their own Macedono-Bulgarian dialect the "Bugarski language", while the rest of the Bulgarian dialects they refer to as the "Shopski language".
(Makedonski pregled, IX, 2, 1934, p. 55; the original letter is kept in the Marin Drinov Museum in Sofia, and it is available for examination
and study)

So this man is praised by the skopians as a national folk culture hero. the same man that said that the todays macedonians didnt know the term "macedonia" before 1888 AD !!!! They knew the older word..."bugari" !!!

My god .. how more obvious could it be that you are BULGARIANS?

THAT LETTER IS ALSO AVAILABLE FOR EXAMINATION BY ANY KIND OF EXPERTS AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED!

in contrast to that, we proved with artifacts again, that ancient macedonians spoke and wrote greek ! NOT BULGARIAN!

Please note Kuzman Shapkarev clearly is stating the name Macedonia is new to Bulgaria and fyrom meaning it is a Foreign name introduced both to Bulgaria and Fyrom, why would he conspire against his own people, because you guys have nothing to do with Macedonia which is Hellenic.

There you go again, look here you fool I didn't remove any of your posts from this thread. Except this one for your blatant disrespect of MACEDONIANS.

========================================================

I never said you chillax dude, I stated you guy's in your communist forum.

"""Except this one for your blatant disrespect of MACEDONIANS."""

Only if you guy's could take your own advise and do respect the fact the Macedonians worshiped the same Greek Gods, practiced same customs as the Greeks, spread the Greek culture. Then you'll realize your hypocrisy here, because it's you guy's who disrespect the Ancient Macedonians and Alexander the man himself.

It was the Macedonians who united the Greek tribes.......

Komi,

have you ever considered the political reasons why the Greeks would have called the Slavaphone population in the Region of Macedonia as Macedonoslavs? Maybe to make a better claim on the territory over the Serbs and the Bulgarians??

But does that actually mean that there was an Ethnicity known as Macedonian at the time? If there was then all the censuses done during the Ottoman and later after the Balkans War and even later would have shown such an ethnicity. But did they? No.

komi runed over by t-80u

Lets have some fun... Evangelos Kofos your(Greek) best scholar on the topic of Macedonia regognized Macedonia under its constitutional name 1964!!!!!!!













So you havd no problem with our name containing REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA 1964 so why in the name of God do you 2007?????


It is time to wake up from your little dream about the Megali Idea and smell the Turkish Coffee, Grci!

Jordan,

where does it say your people are called "Macedonians"?? It does not. The book discusses the Region as a whole. So I wonder what your people called themselves within the People Republic of Macedonia at that time?

Accepting a STATE thus REGION of a country as Macedonia is the SAME as the Greeks calling their northern province Macedonia! Can you not see that? IT WAS NOT AN INDEPENDENT COUNTRY AND the people were not called Macedonians.

Times have changed and your people have changed their name and just kept the name of the state within Yugoslavia. While Greece is still one nation and still has a state called Macedonia.

Niko:
While Greece is still one nation and still has a state called Macedonia.
*****************************************************************************

What? You are a nation(Greece) with a state(also a nation, Macedonia)...... What?

You have a nation, it is Greece with a province that is called Macedonia.


We WERE A FEDERAL REPUBLIC within Yugoslavia, do you know what that means? To make it easy for you... a STATE in the US of A, is a FEDERAL ENTITY, they are federal states in the union....... You have to know the basics here.....
here is a link for your reading pleasure: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_republic

You(Greeks) have a problem with the name of our STATE not with our ethnicity as per the interim agreement.

Thus you had no problem to refer to us as the People's REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA in 1964 then you have no problem with our constitutional name, REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA, 2007.

So would GREECE like us to revert to our old name which you had no problem with, People's REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA.


Wake up my dear little fooled Greek.

Niko, here is another link for you so you will hopefully understand what I am talking about.......
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federation

Do you get it now...... DO YOU?

Jordan you don't get it do you? A federation since when? And what was it before that? Yogoslavia wasn't it. Anyone who says the Macedonians were proto Yugoslavians or proto SLav is destined to be the laughing stock of the world.

"""You have a nation, it is Greece with a province that is called Macedonia."""

To which it's trying to steal the same name by using the same name as Greece's province isn't that right jordan, and why is the Greek Macedonian province named as such? Let me explain it to you.

Athenians were part of the ancient states as were the Spartans as were the Macedonians and thus we now are not city states anymore were are part of a greater nation called Greece and we now have the provinces called Athens, Sparta and Macedonia, you know Alexandros united us Greeks city states. Did they teach you this at school???? And since your so naive jordan have a look at that book which was part of the propagandistic books of the late 90's what it says. Yugoslav Macedonia as istor and we other Greeks have said Slavomakedonians we referred you as, well it translates to that.


"""We WERE A FEDERAL REPUBLIC within Yugoslavia, do you know what that means? To make it easy for you... a STATE in the US of A, is a FEDERAL ENTITY, they are federal states in the union....... You have to know the basics here.....
here is a link for your reading pleasure: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_republic>"""

But Macedonia was always inside where Greece is not inside Yugoslavia. If it was then this Greek hero "EMMANUEL PAPAS[1773-1821] Leader of 1821 in Makedonia and other Greek Macedonian heroes such as Pavlos Melas would be there BUT we know they were proud of their Greek campaigns .


"""You(Greeks) have a problem with the name of our STATE not with our ethnicity as per the interim agreement."""

Do you???? Honnestley here is where you get slammed and will be a proven liar you guy's.

So would GREECE like us to revert to our old name which you had no problem """with, People's REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA."""

When was this? Jordan ela tell us what year.

KOMITZI it would be nice to debate and answer you unfortunately like many times you delete our replies. Which helps our cause

EDIT BY KOMITADJI: NICE WAY TO WORM OUT, THAT IS A COMPLETE LIE, I HAVE NOT DELETED ANY OF YOUR REPLIES, EITHER RESPOND TO MY MESSAGE OR COME TO TERMS WITH THE FACT THAT A HUNDRED YEARS AGO GREEKS KNEW MACEDONIANS WERE A SEPERATE PEOPLE, AND TODAY GREEK DESCENDANT BUNNIES CONJURE DREAMS OF SOME DELUDED "hellenism" THAT WAS ALIEN TO THEIR GREAT-GRANDFATHERS AS PROOF OF NOTHING MORE THAN THEIR IDIOCY.

Jordan I am using generalizations and do not need a lesson in political entities!

So was the "Peoples Republic of Macedonia" within Yugoslavia a SEPERATE political entity? Yes just as each U.S state has it's own government and the right to secede from the Union. Not much difference. You still could do nothing internationally without approval from all the other "Republics" within Yugoslavia. So tell us Jordan when was your country named PRoM? 1946 after Tito was in power. Was there a separate entity called Macedonia in Yugoslavia before that? NO.

Why in 1946 would Tito create a Republic within a Republic(completely moronic idea and contradictory)? Maybe something to do with the Greek Civil War and access to the Aegean?

You still ignored what your people were called during the period of 1949-1991! I have proof that when people mentioned the term Macedonia for those 42 years they referred entirely to NORTHERN GREECE!

You brought forth supposed "evidence" that "proves" Greece acknowledged your land as Macedonia but you completely ignored the context of the book! The book is discussing ALL OF MACEDONIA(Greece, FYROM, Bulgaria) and NOT A COUNTRY CALLED MACEDONIA. Just because Tito set up a "Republic" within Yugoslavia in the late 40's does not mean you are a distinct ethnicity called Macedonian or that you have exclusive rights to that name and its heritage.

So what was that pat of Yugoslavia called before 1946?

What was the Ethnicity in that part of Yugoslavia called before 1946?

Why would Tito create a Republic within a Republic called Macedonia in 1946?

What is the big difference between a U.S state with it's own government and representatives in the Federal government and the "Republic" called Macedonia within Yugoslavia?

Do you not see any political motivations as to why such a named Republic was created in 1946?

Piperkata.. your old name wasnt "Vardarska Banovina"... means "State of Vardarska"?...

it means the province of vardar river. tito decided to name it Macedonia although skopje, tetovo, veles and most of the territory are outside historical Macedonia.....

Why do you people never learn? Please do some reading about the Banovina system that was in place in the first Yugoslavia and then we can talk about it, ok?

So any comments that are worth giving on the letter of Teodosij?

How would those Teodosij 'Macedonians' say Thessaloniki ???

Did Dame Gruev know that he was one of them?
How many deputies those Teodosij's 'Macedonians' sent to Ottoman Parliament at 1908?

abre Jordan !
Open your eyes, damn it !!

Istor
Solun or Thessaloniki?
Conflict about Macedonian name

Istor, Teodosij's Macedonians most likely said Salonika, Selanik, Solon.

I know this letter is a thorn in the eye for you Istor, you just cant disapprove it....... Teodosij even speaks about Macedonian speaking Greeks, what is that Istor?

My fiend, I think it is better for you to take a front seat and enjoy the show instead of playing the village clown, show yourself some respect.

"It was called Vardarska for only a few years, before that Southern Serbia for a few years - both of these were during occupation by the Serbian Kingdom, which lasted for a mere 27 years, a result of Serb agression against the Macedonians was the death of their king. Tito didn't make the Macedonians, he just gave them recognition."
-------------------------------------------------------
Yes... yes... but that is how it was called! That is how people were calling THEIR place! That is how people ACCEPTED that name for THEIR land!
Now... tell me.. ONE time... that the area of Thessaloniki or in general.. Macedonia in Greece was called with a different name! Just ONE time in its history....?

So dude.... where is the real Macedonia?



"Greece was called by the Slavic name of Morea for centuries. Moreans were called Romans for centuries. The new name for the Moreans, Hellenes, was alien to Moreans before the 19th century."
--------------------------------------------------------
No. Thats misleading information! Morea was called the part of Pelloponesus! Pelloponeseans were called Moreans, Cretans were called Cretans and Macedonians were called Macedonians!

Macedonia was always Macedonia and Thessaloniki was ALWAYS its capital!

The idea of naming your region "Macedonia" and having Skopje as a capital... is a very BRAND NEW idea......and sorry... I think.. we dont agree.. and since we dont agree... it will never happen..

no matter how many historical and archaiological proofs the science community of the world gathers our friend jordan will never change his mind and say OK ancient Macedonians were an Hellenic tribe. even if we find Alexander's grave and resurrect him and he admit that his people were Hellenes, jordan will call him grecoman and continue with his believes. it's ok with me, we have democracy and freedom of speech is part of it. exchanging ideas is what is prefer.
i believe that is very obvious who modern makedonskis are. old officials of their country explained why they stick on the name issue and why they created the story about their connection with the ancient Macedonians. i just cant understand the hate of members of the diaspora from canada and australia. those people never had a bad experience with Hellas and many of them have grandparents that fought in the Hellenic civil war. probably this is one reason they behave badly against us.

well today i think that insecurity is one very strong concern of the ACTUAL citizens of their state. well this is not because of Hellas but because of the 40% of the population of the country the ALBANIANS. why don't u concentrate your efforts on how to save your country from the albanian separatists? even consider as option to return and serve the army rather than trying to find a connection with the ancient Macedonians! i think it's more useful and patriotic than your try to persuade us that u speak a totally different language than the bulgarians for example.

hahahahahahaha !!

Abre Jordan,
Why should I believe Teodosij and not Gruev or Ottoman Parliament?
hahahahahahahahaha !!

If you think that ONE persons' words could make you 'Macedonians' then you really are not Macedonians, my dear.

Open your eyes, damn it!!

Macedonias said always Thessaloniki.

Istor
Solun or Thessaloniki?
Conflict about Macedonian name

Oh yes Tito wanted access to the Aegean sea. HAHAHAHA. Tito didn't give a **** about Macedonia. He was ready to fight for Trieste, and on the other hand left the DAG fighters in Aegean Macedonia to be killed like dogs, from the Monarcho- fascists. He let them to depend on the goodwill of Stalin, who on Yalta agreed Greece to be capitalistic. That's why the truth about the children refugees in Aegean Macedonia is hidden, because everybody got their hands dirty there from England, France and America through The Soviet Union and Tito's Yugoslavia and ending with your fascistic Greek government, which tortured innocent people and expelled them them from their homes, in which they lived more than 1000 years. But,the truth will come out on day, it cannot be hidden forever. It was a genocide and we won't forget that. That's why you Greeks are in panic now, because you now what have you done. And those of you that are the loudest are actually people with Macedonian roots which feel threatened by that, so they have to prove themselves to the "pure Greek" and to themselves. But it's not their fault, it's the great powers and the greek fascists to blame.
На лагата и се куси нозете.

"where does it say your people are called "Macedonians"?? It does not. The book discusses the Region as a whole. So I wonder what your people called themselves within the People Republic of Macedonia at that time?

Accepting a STATE thus REGION of a country as Macedonia is the SAME as the Greeks calling their northern province Macedonia! Can you not see that? IT WAS NOT AN INDEPENDENT COUNTRY AND the people were not called Macedonians.

Times have changed and your people have changed their name and just kept the name of the state within Yugoslavia. While Greece is still one nation and still has a state called Macedonia."
- Nikilianos
............................................................
Serbs 8,137,000 (8,143,246)
Croats 4,428,000 (4,526,782)
Moslems 1,999,000 (1,729,932)
Slovenes 1,753,000 (1,678,032)
Macedonians 1,341,000 (1,194, 784)
Montenegrins 577,000 (508,843)

Yugoslavian census in 1981
http://www.osa.ceu.hu/files/holdings/300/8/3/text/85-4-120.shtml