An amazing archeological stone plate was placed in front of the building of the Government of our neighbours!



And the amazing thing??
The stone plate is written in GREEK!



http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/free-speech-macedonia-forum/7624-amazing-stone-plate-front-gov-building-skopje.html

So?

this insription prooves two thinks....

-macedonians were Greeks in Roman times(what news)
-only the 2/5 of FYROM territory belongs to historical macedonia and all the finding artifacts were Greeks.

Even and the Episcopal Basilica ( 6th-4th cent AD), the oldest Christian church in FYROM church was Greek...

http://macedonianontheweb.blogspot.com/2008/04/episcopal-basilica-6th-4th-cent-ad.html


any other question as about the Macedonian history ?

They used the Greek language it is known, and of course that church was Greek in the begging only Latin and Greek were allowed in the churches, and the situation in Greece is no better today, ask Nikodimos Tsarknias.

Akritas, in your claim that this church was Greek, can you explain why you use the word "Greek" to describe this church. I ask because at the time period you describe, the Church had not split yet. That did not happen till the 11th century, when the Church split into the Western church (Latin) and the Eastern church (Byzantine). The time period you describe, Christianity was one and the same.

Yes it was the same and the languages were Greek and Latin.

In the 4th-6th centuries the OFFICIAL LANGUAGE of the Roman Empire was LATIN. It was not until the 7th century when Greek became the official language. SO a church built in the 4th-6th centuries with Greek writing means ONE THING; That Greeks were the predominant culture in the region. If they were not Latin would have been used.

The official language of the Eastern part of the empire was Greek. The west still spoke Latin.

"That Greeks were the predominant culture in the region."

That is not accurate. So we should make the statement as:

"The Greek culture and language were predominant in the region"

So now that we know, what is the big deal about the stone?

"The official language of the Eastern part of the empire was Greek. The west still spoke Latin"

Actually that is a inaccurate statement. It should read; The official language of the Eastern part of the Empire BECAME Greeks in the 7th century.

It was the Emperor Heraclius that made it the official language in the 7th Century. SO in order for a Greek inscription dating before that to exist in the Region that means the Macedonians of the time were Greek.

"The official language of the Eastern part of the Empire BECAME Greeks in the 7th century."


??????????

The Holy liturgy was to be held either in Greek or in Latin. In Macedonia it was in Greek, what's problem?

"It was the Emperor Heraclius that made it the official language in the 7th Century. SO in order for a Greek inscription dating before that to exist in the Region that means the Macedonians of the time were Greek."

Actually, one must be quite specific on this subject and state that the ancient Macedonians embraced the Greek culture and language.

Actually, one must be quite specific on this subject and state that the ancient Macedonians embraced the Greek culture and language.


Actually it is only your assumption on that. If you want to get more specific(as you like to play) your statement should actually read;

'...that the ancient Macedonians embraced...' Athenian culture and language even though they already had an existing Greek dialect and culture.

You always dismiss the Pella Katadesmos and several other non-Athenian or Koini inscriptions found in Ancient Macedonia. You also ignore the 1000's of headstones/Grave Stelae from Ancient Macedonia with distinct regional Greek and non-Athenian names dating from the 5th-4th centuries.

Are you saying that they adopted a Northwest dialect of Greek before they adopted Attic/Athenian and later Koini Greek? How is it they spoke a Northwest dialect of Greek before they spoke Attic and later Koini?

Why was it that the Persians in the 6th and 5th centuries B.C.E called the Ancient Macedonians as 'Yauna Takabara' which means Greeks wearing Hats?? Is that propaganda by the Persians? Or were they just confused?

Those were Frigian hats, worn by the Macedonians and the Frigians, since the Frigians were one of the tribes which constituted Ancient Macedonians.

Provide a source for your claim. I have never heard or read anything which makes or supports such a claim. Anyways it is irrelevant as to who's hat it originally was! What is the important aspect of this is what the Persians called the Ancient Macedonians!


Greeks wearing hats.

The Phrygians were inhabitants of the area who were pushed out and migrated to Asia Minor. They did not constitute one of the Ancient Macedonian tribes. Yes there may have been a handful but they were totally absorbed very early on, even before the time of the Argaead dynasty. You must remember that the Mycenaeans had a heavy influence in the region as early as 1200 b.c.e.

I have read a Bulgarian source on that, and the Phyrigians together with the Ilyrians, Thracians, Peonians, Ancient Macedonians, and some Greek tribes, constituted the Ancient Macedonians which got the name from the small tribe of Macedonians, but they were a mix of all this tribes. It is said that when Alexander went to the Phrygians he had no translator.

"For the first appearance of the Glagolitic letters, (glagol signifies in Slavic word, or rather verb,) is still buried in perfect darkness. An almost fabulous antiquity has been ascribed to this alphabet by various old writers. According to some it was derived from the Goths or Getæ; according to others, from the Phrygians and Thracians;"
- Historical View of the Languages and Literature of the Slavic Nations, by Therese Albertine Louise von Jacob Robinson, et al, written in the 1850.

The original Macedonians were of Hellenic stock. It was only through their expansion that various other groups were incorporated. The Illyrians were long time enemies of the Macedonians. The Thracians were subdued by Philip II. The Phrygians/Brygians were pushed out when the Emathians(Later to be known as Macedonians) pushed them out and they settled in Anatolia(Todays Turkey).

The Paeonians was subjugated and consolidated only in 217 B.C.E into the Macedonian Kingdom. There origins are believed to be either Thracian, Illyrian or Mysian, or a combination of both Illyrian and Thracian. They joined the Illyrians in 360-359 B.C.E on attacks against Macedonia.

As you can see there are a few holes in that Bulgarian theory.

Why would a people who were all those combined be attacked by all those groups?

You forget that the Macedonians conquered the Greek cities also. And you see the difference in organization, while the Greeks had their cities sometimes cooperating sometimes going to war against each other, the Macedonians had strong centralized governing. Not, to mention the writings of Demosthenes which lived in that time.

'You forget that the Macedonians conquered the Greek cities also. And you see the difference in organization, while the Greeks had their cities sometimes cooperating sometimes going to war against each other, the Macedonians had strong centralized governing. Not, to mention the writings of Demosthenes which lived in that time.'

Yes they did conquer Greek CITY-STATES. You are also correct as to the differences in organization. You are mistaken on the Macedonians having a strong centralized government. The City-State was a strong centralized government. The Macedonians had a loosely affiliated tribal organization with several 'Kings'. They all vied for power and it was just Philip who manipulated the system to his favor to become the primary king.

Demosthenes is simply an Athenian patriot. He did and said whatever was possible to retain Athenian supremacy over the region. He gave 7 speeches before giving the now infamous 3rd Philippic. In not one single instance in the precious speeches did he make any reference to Philip or the Macedonians as 'Barbarian'. Now why did he wait until that speech to make such claims? It was due to Philip being on the doorstep of Attica(Athenian homeland). He also became more aggressive in his speeches due to the inactivity of the Athenians to stop Macedonian encroachment and hegemony over the Greek lands.


There are only 2, yes 2 instances from all the surviving text from that period that ever mention Philip or the Macedonians as being 'Barbarians'. You know one of them already. What I ask of you is to find out the second one and tell me why he made such a statement.

You must remember that the Context of a speech is always the more important aspect to understanding what is being said.

"He also became more aggressive in his speeches due to the inactivity of the Athenians to stop Macedonian encroachment and hegemony over the Greek lands."

Barbarian is person who does not speak Hellenic plain and simple.

And one of the Macedonian kings Alexander I (480 b.c.) was called Philhellen (the one that is friend whit the Hellenes, which loves the Hellenes). Why would be somebody called Philhellen if he is a Hellen.

Let's see.

"The country on the sea coast, now called Macedonia, was first acquired by Alexander, the father of Perdiccas, and his ancestors, originally Temenids from Argos."and from Herodotus, Book I, 56

"...but the Dorians on the contrary have been constantly on the move; their home in Deucalion's reign was Phthiotis and in the reign of Dorus son of Hellen the country known as Histiaeotis in the neighbourhood of Ossa and Olympus; driven from there by the Cadmeians they settled in Pindus and were known as Macedons; thence they migrated to Dryopis, and finally to the Peloponnese, where they got their present name of Dorians."

In Herodotus (Book 9, paragraph 45.2) Alexander I, king of Macedonia says:
"... I myself am by ancient descent a Greek, and I would not willingly see Hellas change her freedom for slavery ..."

Tell your king who sent you how a Greek, ruler under him of the Macedonians entertained you well at board and bed."
(Herodotus V, 20, 4)

Alexander III (the Great) talking to the king of the Persians says: (Arrian, Anabasis of Alexander II,14,4)
"Your ancestors invaded Macedonia and the rest of Greece and did us great harm, though we had done them no prior injury [...] I have been appointed hegemon (leader) of the Greeks [...] "

Arrian ("Alexander the Great" 1,16,7) describes the following incident: After winning the battle of Granicus ...
"He [Alexander the Great] sent to Athens three hundred Persian panoplies to be set up to Athena in the acropolis; he ordered this inscription to be attached: Alexander son of Philip and the Greeks, except the Lacedaemonians, set up these spoils from the barbarians dwelling in Asia"

Herodotus also states clearly the Greek origin of the Macedonians!

"And that these descendants of Perdiccas are Greeks, as themselves say, I happen to know myself,”
(Herodotus V, 22, 1)

Although there are numerous references from the ancients (and unfortunately there isn’t enough room to mention them all) the most important evidence are the Archaeological discoveries!

Everything that has been found in Ancient Macedonia is only Greek!

All the inscriptions on monuments, coins and other artifacts are written in Greek. Hundred of inscriptions both state and private are all in Greek. The names of the Macedonians written by themselves on their tombs are only Greek! There are no ancient monuments with a different language. Furthermore there are a large number of discoveries in Asia in the route of Alexander the Great. All these monuments, discovered in Persia Egypt Pakistan, Syria, India and many more countries, prove that Alexander’s quest was Greek and that his goal was to spread the Greek civilization all over the world. Don’t forget that Alexander created a gigantic Greek empire and make Greek an international language!

His successors continued his worked and they formed the Hellenistic Greek world!


We have to repeat our self's LOL imagine proto Slavs hi hi hi

Barbarian also had the connotation of 'uncivilized' as well. There are also references to the Athenians calling the Spartans 'barbarian'. So does that mean the Spartans were not Greeks? The Athenians were an arrogant bunch in those day and in a way still are today. They thought they were the center of Greek art, education and science while the not.


'Philhellene' simply means 'Friend' or 'lover' of the Greeks. It does not necessarily denote someone who is non-Greek, that is a common misconception.

Barbarian has a meaning of uncivilized today, it was different in the past. You know very well, that the word Philhellene was used only for foreigners. That is even today. If I am not mistaken, you call the lord Byron Philhellene right?

Diodorus Siculus

For many days the king lay helpless under his treatment, and the Greeks who had been settled in Bactria and Sogdiana, who had long borne unhappily their sojourn among peoples of another race and now received word that the king has died of his wounds, revolted against the Macedonians. They formed a band of 3000 men and underwent great hardship on their homeward route. Later they were massacred by the Macedonians after Alexander’s death. 17.99.5-6.

The Macedonians and Alexander backed Coragus because he was one of them while the Greeks favored Dioxippus. 17.100.4.

Then the Macedonian (Coragus) poised his long lance and charged, but the Greek (Dioxippus), when he came within reach, struck the spear with his club and shuttered it. After these two defeats, Coragus was reduced to continuing the battle with sword, but as he reached for it, the other leaped upon him and seized his swordhand with his left, while with his right hand the Greek upset the Macedonian’s balance and made him lose his footing. 17.100.6-7

He (Alexander the Great) was plainly disappointed at the defeat of the Macedonian. Dioxippus released his fallen opponent, and left the field winner of the resounding victory and bedecked with ribands by his compatriots, as having brought a common glory to all Greeks. 17.101.1-2.

When the Aetolians listened to him gladly they gave him 7000 soldiers, he sent to the Locrians and the Phocians and the other neighboring peoples and urged them to assist their freedom and rid Greece of the Macedonian despotism. 18.9.5.

The decree of the Assembly of Athens: "people should assume responsibility for the common freedom of the Greeks and liberate the cities that were subject to (Macedonian) garrisons; that they should prepare 40 quadriremes and 200 triremes (ships); that all Athenians up to age of 40 should be enrolled; that three tribes should guard Attica, and that the other seven should be ready for campaign beyond the frontier; that envoys should be sent to visit the Greek cities and tell them that formerly the Athenian people, convinced that all Greece was the common fatherland of the Greeks, had fought by see against those (Macedonian) barbarians who had invaded Greece to enslave her, and that now too Athens believed it necessary to risk lives and money and ships in defense of the common safety of the Greeks." 18.10.1-3.

Of the rest of the Greeks, some were well disposed toward the Macedonians, others remained neutral. 18.11.1

This was the situation in Asia and in Greece AND Macedonia. 19.105.4

etc.

Plutarch The Age of Alexander

"Alexander was born on the sixth day of the month Hecatombaeon, which the Macedonians call Lous, the same day on which the temple of Artemis at Ephesus was burned down." [p.254] A Macedonian calendar

Alexander returns from the campaigns at the Danube, north of Macedon. When the news reached him that the Thebans had revolted and were being supported by the Athenians, he immediately marched south through the pass of Thermopylae. 'Demosthenes', he said, 'call me a boy while I was in Illyria and among the Triballi, and a youth when I was marching through Thessaly; I will show him I am a man by the time I reach the walls of Athens.' [p.264]

"Thebans countered by demanding the surrender of Philotas and Antipater and appealing to all who wished to liberate Greece to range themselves on their side, and at this Alexander ordered his troops to prepare for battle." [p.264]

Alexander asks a women, who was being taken captive, who she was, she replied: 'I am the sister of Theogenes who commanded our army against your father, Philip, and fell at Chaeronea fighting for the liberty of Greece.' [p.265]

Cassander's fear of Alexander 'In general, we are told, this fear was implanted so deeply and took such hold of Cassander's mind that even many years later, when he had become king of Macedonia and master of Greece, and was walking about one day looking at the sculpture at Delphi, the mere sight of a statue of Alexander struck him with horror, so that he sguddered and trembled in every limb, his head swam, and he could scarcely regain control of himself.' [p.331]

Soon after his death the people of Athens paid him fitting honours by erecting his statue in bronze, and by decreeing that the eldest member of his family should be maintained in the prytaneum at the public expense. On the base of his statue was carved his famous inscription: 'If only your strength had been equal, Demosthenes, to your wisdom Never would Greece have been ruled by a Macedonian Ares' [p.216]

"While Demosthenes was still in exile, Alexander died in Babylon, and the Greek states combined yet again to form a league against Macedon. Demosthenes attached himself to the Athenian convoys, and threw all his energies into helping them incite the various states to attack the Macedonians and drive them out of Greece." [p.212]

I by no means assent to Demaratus of Corinth, who said that those Greeks lost a great satisfaction that did not live to see Alexander sit on the throne of Darius. That sight should rather have drawn tears from them, when they considered that they have left the glory to Alexander and the Macedonians, whilst they spent all their own great commanders in playing them against each other in the fields of Leuctra, Coronea, Corinth, and Arcadia." [Plutarch "Lives" vol.2 The Dryden Translation. Edited and Revised by Arthur Hugh Clough p.50]

Strabo

"The Thessalians in particular wore long robes, probably because they of all the Greeks lived in the most northerly and coldest region" [11.14.12]. - Macedonia is on Thessaly's north.

etc etc etc

For the meaning in Ancient times of 'Barbarian' please look up the book called 'The Oxford Dictionary of The Classical World. Edited by John Roberts.

Many people have the misconception of the term 'Barbarian' in Ancient Greece! As do they about Philhellene.

Barbarian means uncivilized only in a pejorative manner.
"The word "barbarian" comes into English from Medieval Latin barbarinus, from Latin barbaria, from Latin barbarus, from the ancient Greek word βάρβαρος (bárbaros). The word is onomatopeic, the bar-bar representing the impression of random hubbub produced by hearing a spoken language that one cannot understand, similar to blah blah, babble or rhubarb in modern English." - Wikipedia

I know that Wikipedia is not the best source, I'll try to find the book you suggested, but what I have read about that term it is someone that you are unable to comprehend. For example in some Slavic languages, Polish, Russian, Serbian, Croatian, the Germans are called Nemtsi (Nemci, Njemci, Niemtsev). The word "nem" means someone that is unable to speak. When the old Slavs lived together, near the Germans in the past, they used the word "Nem" to describe them since they could not understand them so it seemed that those people were unable to speak.
As for Philhellene, it is clear that it means a friend to the Greeks, how can a Greek be a frien to the Greeks.
philhellene
One entry found.

philhellene


Main Entry:
phil·hel·lene Listen to the pronunciation of philhellene
Pronunciation:
\(ˌ)fil-ˈhe-ˌlēn\
Variant(s):
or phil·hel·len·ic Listen to the pronunciation of philhellenic \ˌfil-hə-ˈle-nik\
Function:
adjective
Etymology:
Greek philellēn, from phil- + Hellēn Hellene
Date:
circa 1825

: admiring Greece or the Greeks
— philhellene noun
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/philhellene
How can a Greek admire Greece, or the Greeks.

One who admires Greece or the Greeks.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/philhellene

The first that described Philhellene as a Greek patriot was Plato, but Plato lived later.
Modern day, artists, authors, politicians also called themselves philhellenes, and many of them were sympathetic towards the Greek independence war.

Wow wow wait you Slav / Bulgars have nothing to do with the Ancients. Let the Greeks speak about their Greek history and culture here. No need to stoop down to this level of propagadas.

What level of propaganda?

"""Wow wow wait you Slav / Bulgars have nothing to do with the Ancients. Let the Greeks speak about their Greek history and culture here."""

^ Read the rest no need to be selective...You already have stooped low on the last posts before mine.

In what way I stooped low? I have read everything I do not need to answer to your insults and provocations so you could edit my posts.

Why am I insultive to you sir ? When is you people insulting the Greekness of Macedonia...Talk about pot calling the pot black sydrome here...This is the Greek forum remember ?

Yes, I know this is the Greek forum and you use that fact to provoke me.

/Welcome to Hellenic ( Greek ) forum. / In this forum viewers can freely express their opinions and ideas about Hellenism and Greece./
Where it says that the viewers have to be Greek?

Phil = friend or love

Hellene = Greek


So we have friend or lover of Greeks. Now this can mean two different things;

1)A foreigner who loves Greeks

2)A Greek who is a friend to all Greeks. You must remember that the vast majority of the Greeks were always fighting each other at one time or another. So if there was a Greek who did not want to fight with other Greeks and supported all the Greeks in a war against foreigners.

Xenophon, the Spartan Agesilaos general and leader as Philhellene : “It is a honour for a Greek to be friend of the Greeks”
(Xen.Agesilaus, 7.1)

(Note it states 'FOR A GREEK TO BE FRIEND OF THE GREEKS'!!

Quote:
"Again, if it is honourable in one who is a Hellene to be a friend to the Hellenes , what other general has the world seen unwilling to take a city when he thought that it would be sacked, or who looked on victory in a war against Hellenesas a disaster?"

(Note that it says 'IN ONE WHO IS A HELLENE to be FRIENDS TO THE HELLENES.) = Philhellene!

From Plato, Republic 5.470e
“And won’t they be philhellenes, lovers of Hellenes, and will they not regard all Hellas as their own and not renounce their part in the holy places common to all Hellenes ?” “Most certainly.” “Will they not then regard any difference with Hellenes ”

And the following.

5.470c
"Greeks, however, we shall say, are still by nature the friends of Greeks when they act in this way."

(Note it states, 'GREEKS........ are still by nature THE FRIENDS OF GREEKS.......'

So what is the meaning of Philhellene?

AS I know number 1 meaning is the original meaning and the 2 is in use after Plato.

During the time of the Persian Wars(The two times the Persians attempted to invade and conquer Greece) the term did mean 'non-Greek = the language sounded as bar-bar to the Greeks). But starting in the 5th century B.C.E Greeks started to apply it to other Greeks who they deemed to be uncivilized. I.E. Drinking wine un-cut, having Kings, not having slaves, poetry, or the various sciences. This was the period in which the only two ever mentions of the Ancient Macedonians or Philip being 'barbarian' occurred.

From the context of the two occurrences it is quite evident that they were purely politically motivated and not ethnically motivated. It is also known that the two people who ever made such mentions were also ATHENIANS. No other Greek from any other City-State, Kingdom, etc EVER called the Ancient Macedonians by such a term.

So it seems quite clear that, considering the political circumstances surrounding the two occurrences, the term 'Barbarian' was only used to mean uncivilized.


Have you looked up who the ONLY other person to call the Ancient Macedonians as 'barbarian' is?

"But starting in the 5th century B.C.E Greeks started to apply it to other Greeks who they deemed to be uncivilized."

This practice is still applied today.

Funny GS!

Viktor,

Do you not have any comments as to the meaning of Philhellene?