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Smarts
(Login GREECEROX)
Greece Forum Mods Group

Re: Atheism in Greece

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May 13 2009, 5:50 AM 

Does it matter what people believe in?

Simply because no matter what other people believe in... Its no ones business.

 
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Epicurus
(Login panos01)

Re: Atheism in Greece

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May 15 2009, 7:30 AM 

When religion rears its ugly head in public matters; Abortion, abstinance, stem-cell research, endorsing political candidates, threatening politicians/business leaders to tow-the-line, etc
It goes from a private belief to a public belief and therefore is free to be critised to the full extent.
Religion does not deserve special treatment, ND supports critise PASOK and vice-versa. Religion does not deserve any less criticism than the normal discourse associated with politics or football.

However the power and corruption of religion has bullied others into believing it deserves to be left-alone, to go unscrutinised no mater what it does. This is not true, and this brain-washing must end.

People must not mistake respecting peoples rights to have beliefs versus respecting the beliefs themselves. No one belief deserves any respect more than another. But the right to free conscience does not entail non-questioning and non-criticism from others. Just because you believe your religion to be sacred does not mean I have to, or anyone else for that matter.

 
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Niklianos
(Login Nikilianos)
Greece Forum Mods Group

Re: Atheism in Greece

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May 24 2009, 10:30 PM 

I agree with Panos. To have faith and religion in ones life is a personal issue and it doesn't matter to me what you believe in, BUT once you start to criticize others beliefs and religions and attempt to force them upon others through politics then you open up your own to counter-criticism and questioning. One can make their beliefs public without receiving criticism by just expressing your beliefs. The problem is that most do not do that, instead they attempt to manipulate the media and the government so that it is only their beliefs and religion which predominates PUBLIC life. I cannot and will not accept such a thing.

 
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Feral Tribune
(Login JasamBozo)

Should I laugh or cry ?

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June 21 2009, 12:05 PM 

Dear Friends,
As a former Catholic I want to quote a very telling fragment from Richard DAWKINS's famous book "God Delusion".
On the surface it is funny and entertaining but deep down it makes me rather sad that this kind of medieval, infantile superstition (or rather nonsense - to be more accurate) is dressed up as something to be respected or even revered.

"Late John Paul II had a special affinity with the Virgin Mary. His polytheistic hankerings were
dramatically demonstrated in 1981 when he suffered an assassination attempt in Rome, and attributed his survival to intervention by Our Lady of Fatima: 'A maternal hand guided the bullet.' One
cannot help wondering why she didn't guide it to miss him altogether. Others might think the team of surgeons who operated on him for six hours deserved at least a share of the credit; but perhaps
their hands, too, were maternally guided. The relevant point is that it wasn't just Our Lady who, in the Pope's opinion, guided the bullet, but specifically Our Lady of Fatima. Presumably Our Lady of Lourdes, Our Lady of Guadalupe, Our Lady of Medjugorje, Our Lady of Akita, Our Lady of Zeitoun, Our Lady of Garabandal and Our Lady of Knock were busy on other errands at the time."


Yasu

 
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Feral Tribune
(Login JasamBozo)

Was the World Made for Man ?

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September 15 2009, 3:29 PM 

Mark Twain's "Was the World Made for Man?
I came across an essay today that I throughly enjoyed. Its from none other than Mark Twain in response to Alfred Russell Wallace's revival of the theory that this earth is at the center of the stellar universe. Wallace, that whom had been a co-author of the theory evolution by natural selection, had become convinced that the world and the universe had been created for man. This is Mark Twain's written response:

Was the World Made for Man?
Mark Twain
1903

Alfred Russell Wallace's revival of the theory that this earth is at the center of the stellar universe, and is the only habitable globe, has aroused great interest in the world." -- Literary Digest

"For ourselves we do thoroughly believe that man, as he lives just here on this tiny earth, is in essence and possibilities the most sublime existence in all the range of non-divine being -- the chief love and delight of God." -- Chicago "Interior" (Presb.)

I seem to be the only scientist and theologian still remaining to be heard from on this important matter of whether the world was made for man or not. I feel that it is time for me to speak.

I stand almost with the others. They believe the world was made for man, I believe it likely that it was made for man; they think there is proof, astronomical mainly, that it was made for man, I think there is evidence only, not proof, that it was made for him. It is too early, yet, to arrange the verdict, the returns are not all in. When they are all in, I think they will show that the world was made for man; but we must not hurry, we must patiently wait till they are all in.

Now as far as we have got, astronomy is on our side. Mr. Wallace has clearly shown this. He has clearly shown two things: that the world was made for man, and that the universe was made for the world -- to steady it, you know. The astronomy part is settled, and cannot be challenged.

We come now to the geological part. This is the one where the evidence is not all in, yet. It is coming in, hourly, daily, coming in all the time, but naturally it comes with geological carefulness and deliberation, and we must not be impatient, we must not get excited, we must be calm, and wait. To lose our tranquility will not hurry geology; nothing hurries geology.

It takes a long time to prepare a world for man, such a thing is not done in a day. Some of the great scientists, carefully deciphering the evidences furnished by geology, have arrived at the conviction that our world is prodigiously old, and they may be right, but Lord Kelvin is not of their opinion. He takes a cautious, conservative view, in order to be on the safe side, and feels sure it is not so old as they think. As Lord Kelvin is the highest authority in science now living, I think we must yield to him and accept his view. He does not concede that the world is more than a hundred million years old. He believes it is that old, but not older. Lyell believed that our race was introduced into the world 31,000 years ago, Herbert Spencer makes it 32,000. Lord Kelvin agrees with Spencer.

Very well. According to Kelvin's figures it took 99,968,000 years to prepare the world for man, impatient as the Creator doubtless was to see him and admire him. But a large enterprise like this has to be conducted warily, painstakingly, logically. It was foreseen that man would have to have the oyster. Therefore the first preparation was made for the oyster. Very well, you cannot make an oyster out of whole cloth, you must make the oyster's ancestor first. This is not done in a day. You must make a vast variety of invertebrates, to start with -- belemnites, trilobites, jebusites, amalekites, and that sort of fry, and put them to soak in a primary sea, and wait and see what will happen. Some will be a disappointments - the belemnites, the ammonites and such; they will be failures, they will die out and become extinct, in the course of the 19,000,000 years covered by the experiment, but all is not lost, for the amalekites will fetch the home-stake; they will develop gradually into encrinites, and stalactites, and blatherskites, and one thing and another as the mighty ages creep on and the Archaean and the Cambrian Periods pile their lofty crags in the primordial seas, and at last the first grand stage in the preparation of the world for man stands completed, the Oyster is done. An oyster has hardly any more reasoning power than a scientist has; and so it is reasonably certain that this one jumped to the conclusion that the nineteen-million years was a preparation for him; but that would be just like an oyster, which is the most conceited animal there is, except man. And anyway, this one could not know, at that early date, that he was only an incident in a scheme, and that there was some more to the scheme, yet.

The oyster being achieved, the next thing to be arranged for in the preparation of the world for man, was fish. Fish, and coal to fry it with. So the Old Silurian seas were opened up to breed the fish in, and at the same time the great work of building Old Red Sandstone mountains 80,000 feet high to cold-storage their fossils in was begun. This latter was quite indispensable, for there would be no end of failures again, no end of extinctions -- millions of them -- and it would be cheaper and less trouble to can them in the rocks than keep tally of them in a book. One does not build the coal beds and 80,000 feet of perpendicular Old Red Sandstone in a brief time -- no, it took twenty million years. In the first place, a coal bed is a slow and troublesome and tiresome thing to construct. You have to grow prodigious forests of tree-ferns and reeds and calamites and such things in a marshy region; then you have, to sink them under out of sight and let them rot; then you have to turn the streams on them, so as to bury them under several feet of sediment, and the sediment must have time to harden and turn to rock; next you must grow another forest on top, then sink it and put on another layer of sediment and harden it; then more forest and more rock, layer upon layer, three miles deep -- ah, indeed it is a sickening slow job to build a coal-measure and do it right!

So the millions of years drag on; and meantime the fish-culture is lazying along and frazzling out in a way to make a person tired. You have developed ten thousand kinds of fishes from the oyster; and come to look, you have raised nothing but fossils, nothing but extinctions. There is nothing left alive and progressive but a ganoid or two and perhaps half a dozen asteroids. Even the cat wouldn't eat such. Still, it is no great matter; there is plenty of time, yet, and they will develop into something tasty before man is ready for them. Even a ganoid can be depended on for that, when he is not going to be called on for sixty million years.

The Palaeozoic time-limit having now been reached, it was necessary to begin the next stage in the preparation of the world for man, by opening up the Mesozoic Age and instituting some reptiles. For man would need reptiles. Not to eat, but to develop himself from. This being the most important detail of the scheme, a spacious liberality of time was set apart for it -- thirty million years. What wonders followed! From the remaining ganoids and asteroids and alkaloids were developed by slow and steady and pains-taking culture those stupendous saurians that used to prowl about the steamy world in those remote ages, with their snaky heads reared forty feet in the air and sixty feet of body and tail racing and thrashing after. All gone, now, alas -- all extinct, except the little handful of Arkansawrians left stranded and lonely with us here upon this far-flung verge and fringe of time.

Yes, it took thirty million years and twenty million reptiles to get one that would stick long enough to develop into something else and let the scheme proceed to the next step.

Then the Pterodactyl burst upon the world in all his impressive solemnity and grandeur, and all Nature recognized that the Cainozoic threshold was crossed and a new Period open for business, a new stage begun in the preparation of the globe for man. It may be that the Pterodactyl thought the thirty million years had been intended as a preparation for himself, for there was nothing too foolish for a Pterodactyl to imagine, but he was in error, the preparation was for man, Without doubt the Pterodactyl attracted great attention, for even the least observant could see that there was the making of a bird in him. And so it turned out. Also the makings of a mammal, in time. One thing we have to say to his credit, that in the matter of picturesqueness he was the triumph of his Period; he wore wings and had teeth, and was a starchy and wonderful mixture altogether, a kind of long-distance premonitory symptom of Kipling's marine:

'E isn't one O'the reg'lar Line,
nor 'e isn't one of the crew,
'E's a kind of a giddy harumfrodite [hermaphrodite] --
soldier an' sailor too!

From this time onward for nearly another thirty million years the preparation moved briskly. From the Pterodactyl was developed the bird; from the bird the kangaroo, from the kangaroo the other marsupials; from these the mastodon, the megatherium, the giant sloth, the Irish elk, and all that crowd that you make useful and instructive fossils out of -- then came the first great Ice Sheet, and they all retreated before it and crossed over the bridge at Behring's strait and wandered around over Europe and Asia and died. All except a few, to carry on the preparation with. Six Glacial Periods with two million years between Periods chased these poor orphans up and down and about the earth, from weather to weather -- from tropic swelter at the poles to Arctic frost at the equator and back again and to and fro, they never knowing what kind of weather was going to turn up next; and if ever they settled down anywhere the whole continent suddenly sank under them without the least notice and they had to trade places with the fishes and scramble off to where the seas had been, and scarcely a dry rag on them; and when there was nothing else doing a volcano would let go and fire them out from wherever they had located. They led this unsettled and irritating life for twenty-five million years, half the time afloat, half the time aground, and always wondering what it was all for, they never suspecting, of course, that it was a preparation for man and had to be done just so or it wouldn't be any proper and harmonious place for him when he arrived.

And at last came the monkey, and anybody could see that man wasn't far off, now. And in truth that was so. The monkey went on developing for close upon 5,000,000 years, and then turned into a man - to all appearances.

Such is the history of it. Man has been here 32,000 years. That it took a hundred million years to prepare the world for him is proof that that is what it was done for. I suppose it is. I dunno. If the Eiffel tower were now representing the world's age, the skin of paint on the pinnacle-knob at its summit would represent man's share of that age; and anybody would perceive that that skin was what the tower was built for. I reckon they would, I dunno.

 
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Niklianos
(Login Nikilianos)
Greece Forum Mods Group

Re: Atheism in Greece

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October 1 2009, 8:12 PM 

That was a great response by Twain! It really all comes down to a matter of perspective, doesn't it!?

 
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Epicurus
(Login panos01)

Re: Atheism in Greece

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October 27 2009, 7:54 AM 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjSjpNe1-Vc



This guy, Pat Condell, is excellent. If you're not familiar with him, he does videos on youtube on the issue of atheism and democracy. I recommend that you all subscribe to his channel.

This video talks about the spineless and anti-democratic resolution of 'Islamic Human Rights'. He aptly points out that the nations who are proponents of this bill (Saudi Arabia mainly) know nothing of human rights and should not be granted their own special conditions. They must obey the existing UDHR as Sharia law is barbaric. It is not the law of God, it is the law of cruel and twisted human-beings.

It's high time that the West cared more about truth and freedom instead of group cohesion. These Islamic extremists do not belong in the group, the West should be aiming to crush them - not include them. Sharia law is the antithesis of freedom and therefore deserves no respect. It's time to call it what it is, the law of cruel men who lie that it is the law of God.

 
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Carla
(Login CARLADELPONTE)
Albania Forum Mods Group

Who is Hamza Andreas Tsortzis

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October 29 2009, 9:38 AM 

There is a new convert on the religious scene who caught attention of international media.
His name is Hamza Andreas Tzortzis.
He is considered as one of the most prominent contemporary Islamic theologians and philosophers.
He attracts huge numbers of followers and his debates are renown for zealous and devastating arguments against non-believers .

I found a very lengthy one quite recently on the You TUBE.


"Hamza Andreas Tzortzis, a convert to Islam, is an international public speaker, author, lecturer and intellectual activist. He is particularly interested in Islam, politics and philosophy. Hamza has debated prominent academics and intellectuals on various topics; including the existence of God, political philosophy and society. He delivers presentations across the world on various topics including the Qur'an, the mechanisms of the Islamic way of life, the philosophy of religion and more. "


Do you know anything about this misterious guy who makes waves in the West big time ?
Is it possible he is Greek ?

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Feral Tribune
(Login JasamBozo)

New Book by a Nobel Prize Winner

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October 31 2009, 11:09 AM 

Portuguese 1998 Nobel literature laureate José Saramago has openly criticized Catholic Church describing The Bible as "a manual of bad morals," and a "catalogue of cruelties and of the worst of human nature."
"He says in his latest book "Caine": read the Bible and you'll lose your faith,
there is nothing "divine" in the Bible. It depicts a "cruel, spiteful, vengeful, jealous and unbearable God. Without the Bible, we would be different, probably better, people," and that he could not understand how the Bible became a "spiritual guide, when it's so full of horrors, incest, betrayals and slaughter."
He states : "the human brain is a great creator of absurd notions, and God is the most absurd one of all."
He openly attacks Pope Benedict XVI, for invoking God to reinforce his universal neo-medievalism and the accumulation of wealth "in the name of the Lord.
His 181-page book "Cain", which he wrote in four months is according to Saramago, is "an insurrection, an exhortation for everyone to dare to look for what is on the other side of things," aimed at getting readers to think and reflect, because "we are manipulated all the time. We have to fight against that."
Saramago responded to his religious critics by saying he was surprised by "the superficiality of the gentlemen of the Church, who did not read the book, but with unusual speed began to spread opinions and dismissive insults about it and its author. "In terms of a lack of intellectual rigor, you could not ask for worse answer" said the writer.
At the same time, Saramago said it is not against God that he is writing, "because he does not exist," but that his stance is against religions, "because they do not, and have never, helped bring people together."
In the writer's view, "God only exists in our minds."
His book points out that in the Old Testament, Cain killed his younger brother Abel in a fit of jealousy after God preferred his brother's sacrifice of sheep to his.
"None of that happened, it's obvious that they're myths invented by man, just like God, a creation of men. All I do is lift up the stones and show the reality hidden beneath them," said Saramago.
He said that the book is "against any and all religions," because throughout history, "all religions, without exception, have done humanity more bad than good."
"Cain" points to injustices, cruelties, limitations of free will and incongruities in the book of Genesis. Saramago concludes: "Yes, reader, that's what it really says. The Lord ordered Abraham to sacrifice his own son, as casually as someone asking for a glass of water when they're thirstyThe logical, natural or simply human thing would have been for Abraham to tell the Lord to go to hell."

 
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Feral Tribune
(Login JasamBozo)

Estonia the most atheist nation in the world.

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November 2 2009, 2:06 AM 

Estonia the most atheist nation in the world.

Just 14% of Estonians answered positively to the question: "Is religion an important part of your daily life?", according to a poll, released byGallup.
Estonia is followed by Nordic countries Sweden and Denmark, where 17 and 18% of those asked answered positively to the same question, reports EU Observer/LETA.
The Czech Republic comes fifth at 21%, just after Norway (20%), while France is ninth with a quarter of French people declaring religion important in their daily life.
The UK, Finland, the Netherlands, Lithuania, Latvia and Bulgaria were also among the countries where most people did not consider religion to be such an important part of their lives.
Among the countries "commonly seen as part of the developed world," some 38% consider religion important in their daily lives, while on the other hand, "eight of the 11 countries in which almost all residents (at least 98%)" replied positively to that question, "are poorer nations in sub-Saharan Africa and Asia."
The US, where two thirds of those asked replied positively, is the most religious "rich-world" country, with Mississippi being its most devout state (85%) and Vermont the least so (42%).
Interestingly enough : more civilized and economically developed countries declare less reliance on religion and a concept of god.

 
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