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A positive Greek initiative towards Balkan reconciliation

March 17 2009 at 7:21 AM
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Carla Del Ponte  (Login CARLADELPONTE)
Albania Forum Mods Group

 
The Greek government has announced it would try to right some of the wrongs committed against ethnic Macedonian political refugees who were exiled from Greece after the Greek Civil War of 1946-1949.

In a new age of European Union standards of human rights, the government will allow those refugees to return home after 55 years in exile, Greek Deputy Foreign Minister Andreas Loverdos said in an 8 June interview with the Greek daily Eleftherotypia.

Approximately 60,000 ethnic Macedonians--28,000 of them children between two and 14 years old--were expelled or forced to flee from Greece after the Greek Civil War. Stripped of their Greek citizenship and their properties confiscated, the expellees were not permitted to return to Greece for even a brief visit unless they denied their own ethnic origin and declared themselves Greek.

A few days after Loverdos 8 June interview, Greek Foreign Ministry spokesperson Panaiotis Beglitis confirmed the governments decision. The spokesperson said that Foreign Minister Yorgos Papandreou wants the political refugee problem resolved as soon as possible and has managed to come to an agreement on the return with opposition parties and local authorities in northern Greece.

The agreement is expected to be a hot topic when, between 15 and 20 July, thousands of the refugees--now living in the Republic of Macedonia, Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania, Uzbekistan, Bulgaria, Canada, the United States, and Australia--are expected to come to the northern Greek town of Florina (Lerin, in Macedonian) to attend the third gathering of Macedonian political refugees.

The first two such gatherings were organized in the Macedonian capital of Skopje in 1988 and 1998.

The preparations for the third world reunion of the refugees in Lerin (Florina) began immediately after the second reunion in 1998 ended. In the words of Georgi Donevski, the executive secretary of the organizational committee of the reunion, the intention from the beginning was to organize the third gathering in northern Greece.

I have to admit that Greeces decision to open its borders this summer came to us as a cold hand on a fevered brow, Donevski said in a 20 June interview with TOL.

The exiled Macedonian emigrants hope they will be able to enter Greece this summer without visas--a measure likely to only be temporary.

Asked if the Greek government was considering the possibility of eliminating visas altogether for the citizens of the Republic of Macedonia, Loverdos told Eleftheroptypia, We are trying to find a solution to the visa problem in any way we can. I consider it a high priority that we immediately resolve such problems.

OWNING UP TO MISTAKES

Until 1912, Macedonia--a territory much larger than the present-day Republic of Macedonia--was part of the Ottoman Empire. During the first Balkan War of 1912, it was liberated from Turkish rule with the help of Greece, Serbia, and Bulgaria. The following year, however, the three liberators sought repayment for their assistance, fighting each other in the second Balkan War of 1913, and partitioning Macedonia.

The northern part, also known as Vardar Macedonia because it stretches along the valley of the River Vardar, was annexed by Serbia. The eastern part, or Pirin Macedonia, became part of Bulgaria, while the southern part, Aegean Macedonia, stretching along the northern coast of the Aegean Sea, was annexed by Greece.

When the Republic of Macedonia (Vardar Macedonia) proclaimed its independence from the former Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (SFRJ) in 1991, Greece perceived it as an expansionist claim over its territory based on the fact that the state of Macedonia bears the same name as Greeces northern province. Considering the size and military capacity of the Republic of Macedonia, many believed Greeces fears to be out of place.

According Loverdos, the recent decision to open the borders to the ethnic Macedonian refugees has nothing to do with the name dispute.

We do not consider this [political refugees] a subject of our bilateral relations. I repeat that the only unresolved issue in our bilateral relations is the question of the name, said Loverdos, calling the political refugee problem a thorn in Greek-Macedonian relations that must be uprooted.

Our own disposition is to offer a solution, and in particular, not in the distant future but immediately, Loverdos said.

In his view, a technical solution should be found for these people to be able to return after 55 years of exile.

This will not become, however, a prelude to the resolution of the name dispute, Loverdos warned.

Speaking about Greeces policy toward the Western Balkans, Loverdos said that one of the priorities of Greek foreign policy is to improve the countrys relations with its neighbors.

I truly believe that FYROM [the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, the name Greece and other countries use to refer to Macedonia, at Greeces insistence] as a strong, European-oriented country, will be of benefit to the region. It is a viable country, and we must strengthen its existence in any way we can, said Loverdos.

ABOUT FACE

In 1982, Greece passed a law on repatriation of political refugees that were Greek by genus. The recognition by the senior Greek official that Greece had discriminated against the ethnic Macedonians by leaving them out of the 1982 repatriation law received much attention in Macedonia.

This decision is a result of the constructive policy of the Greek government, whose new strategy nurtures a European approach in its foreign policy toward neighboring countries. Only a few months ago, we could not have even imagined that such delicate issues would be raised, Macedonian Ambassador to Greece Blagoj Handziski said in a 9 June statement.

Metodija Tosevski, a member of the Association of Refugees from the Aegean Part of Macedonia, looks at the development from historical perspective.

I believe historical injustice cannot be undone. Thousands of lives were lost, thousands were displaced, and families were torn apart. Of course, the new generation of Greek politicians should not be held accountable for the wrong policy of the past. Therefore we want to look at this as a new beginning and new relations with new people that have views different from those of the past, Tosevski told the Macedonian daily Utrinski vesnik.

On 27 May, Greek Parliament ratified the Stabilization and Association Agreement (SAA) that Macedonia had earlier signed with the European Union--an agreement that makes Greece even more eager to sort out the political refugee problem.

Though it is now evident that Greece has softened its rigid policy toward its northern neighbor, the turnabout has a history that reaches further back than at first glance.

Borjan Jovanovski, a distinguished Macedonian journalist, long-standing analyst of the Macedonian-Greek relations, and former spokesman for Macedonian President Boris Trajkovski, says that when Kostas Simitis became Greek prime minister, Greece changed the way it perceives the Balkans and the EU.

Right from the beginning, said Jovanovski, Simitis government adopted a pragmatic approach, which implies accepting reality the way it is, and part of that reality is the Macedonians living in Greece. Greece wanted to realize the ambitions of its foreign policy, and those ambitions involved becoming a factor in the Balkans and obtaining recognition by the EU that Greece is the leader of the region, which would certainly make the EU hold Greece in high esteem.

PART OF SOCIETY

According to Jovanovski, Greece has realized it cannot argue for promotion of human and minority rights elsewhere while turning a blind eye to what is happening in its own backyard. Simitis government managed to resolve the conflict between Greeces foreign and domestic policy.

Jovanovski also said that Greece could find no way out of undoing the injustice against the political refugees once it discovered that its ethnic Macedonian minority was not politically radical.

[They] are European-oriented; they understand the European context of minority rights. There are no nationalists among them that would try to take advantage of the granted minority rights to eventually demand the breakaway of Greeces northern province, Jovanovski said.

Vinozito (Rainbow), the political party of the Macedonian minority in Greece, has been taking patient and very cautious steps over the years to prevent its struggle for greater minority rights from being understood as an attempt to violate Greeces territorial integrity or disrupt its national and social order.

We do not want separate schools as some ethnic communities in other countries have. We want the Macedonian language to be taught within the framework of the national educational system. We do not want to be separated from Greek society. Therefore we are cooperating with the Greek political parties. We are part of this society, but for the sake of respecting the democratic right of distinction, the Macedonian ethnic minority should be recognized., Pavlos Vaskopulos, a member of Vinozitos presidency, told the Macedonian daily Dnevnik.

As regards human rights, the change in Greeces policy toward the Macedonian minority has also reverberated among the public. Macedonians in northern Greece can now more freely use Macedonian, not fearing prosecution.

A tombstone inscribed in the Macedonian Cyrillic alphabet has recently appeared in one of the Macedonian-inhabited villages, while a billboard bearing the name of Vinozito, written in Macedonian, has just recently been posted in the heart of Lerin (Florina).

Greeces implementation of such European values in the Balkans is hopefully a sign that more positive change is to come, Jovanovski said, adding that it is better that the process of change remain a slow and cautious one, as radical changes could instigate resistance.

The agenda of the third world reunion of the refugees foresees visits to a number of towns and villages in northern Greece, the birthplaces of the political emigrants.

What some of the refugees will see, however, will not at all fit in with the pictures that have lingered in their memories for half a century. Many of the villages whose rebellious residents fought for the Resistance--the Greek Democratic Army--against the monarchists in the Greek Civil War were burned to the ground. One of those is the village of Dmbeni near Kostur.

Though Dmbeni no longer exists, its memory is still alive in the Skopje neighborhood of Butel II, where architect Andrej Andreevski created a miniature model of the village with astonishing precision based on a few photographs and his memory.

Andreevski left Dmbeni in 1949 never to return. Dmbeni was then burned and flattened to the ground with bulldozers. Even the village cemeteries were not exempt from the monarchists vengeance.

Once he heard of the destruction, Andreevski gave up his desire of ever going back. He wanted to remember his birthplace the way he left it. He died a few years ago, but the model in his Skopje home is the only birthplace the one-time residents of Dmbeni, now scattered all over the world, can return to.

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This message has been edited by CARLADELPONTE on Mar 25, 2009 12:20 PM


 
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Arxileas
(Login Arxileas)
Greece Forum Mods Group

Re: A positive Greek initiative towards Balkan reconciliation

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March 17 2009, 10:59 AM 

Greetings Carla.

Can you at least provide a link to the article please.

As far as I am concerned this is pure propaganda, right from the beginning when it states "ethic Macedonians" fyi there is no such thing as an ethnic Macedonian. ALL Macedonians are Greeks the rest of the Greeks are either Spartans from Sparta, Cretans from Crete, Thessylians from Thessaly and more to give you a hint, but they are Greeks formost.

As for the 28 thousand children, have you seen the U.N archives ? The majority of them were stolen from their parents and is all recored in the U.N archives.

Try and going to the Turkish forum and post an article on Mustafa Kemal Ataturk being a Jew as some people claim him to be which is false offcourse and see how the Turks react, and you do this to us with this utter rubbish ? "excuse my manner this time" but this is an unacceptable topic and is asking for trouble from Greek members, are you aware of this ?.

--------------------------------------------

http://www.hellenicplanet.com/forums

 
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Arxileas
(Login Arxileas)
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Re: A positive Greek initiative towards Balkan reconciliation

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March 17 2009, 11:27 AM 

"""Approximately 60,000 ethnic Macedonians--28,000 of them children between two and 14 years old--were expelled or forced to flee from Greece after the Greek Civil War. Stripped of their Greek citizenship and their properties confiscated, the expellees were not permitted to return to Greece for even a brief visit unless they denied their own ethnic origin and declared themselves Greek."""


Innocents' Day

Peace had come to battered, impoverished Greece; the Communist guerrillas had been driven out, perhaps for good. But last week, on Innocents' Day (the Church calendar's anniversary of Herod's Slaughter of the Innocents in Judea), Greece had a day of mourning for 28,000 children abducted by the bandits and now living on foreign, Communist soil.

A two-gun salute from Mount Lycabettus woke Athenians at dawn. Church bells tolled and flags drooped at half-mast. Newspapers appeared with black-framed front pages. Places of amusement were closed all day, and for half an hour all traffic stopped, streets emptied, doors were closed and blinds drawn.

Queens Do Not Beg. Earnest young Queen Frederika, mother of three, broadcast a poignant message from the royal palace. She begged for the return of the 28,000 children living in exile "as a motherbecause queens are not supposed to beg." Added Frederika: "The civilized world has remained silent too long."

The civilized world had made some well-meaning but ineffective protests. UNSCOB (the U.N.'s Special Committee on the Balkans) had verified the mass deportation of Greek children. The U.N. General Assembly had called on Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, and Rumania for the return of the children. These governments had finally agreed to return any children called for by petition of their parents. Up to last week the Greek Red Cross had forwarded 8,000 petitions, but not one child had been sent back.

Not Even Goodbye. In the palace with Frederika was a group of black-clad peasant women huddled at her side. Kaliroe Gouloumi, from Gorgopotamos, in Epirus, remembered how the Communists took her children: They were in our village for a year. First they took our animals, then our food, then our children. I had three." Kaliroe wiped her eyes with her black shawl. "They did not even let me say goodbye. They said they were no longer my children but their children."

Said Kleoniki Kiprou from Monopilo Kastoria: "First they hanged the priest, then they cut off his mother's hands, and then they ordered us to follow them. What could we do?" In Albania her eight-year-old girl and five-year-old boy were taken from her and a rifle was thrust into her hands. Tapping the weapon, the rebel capetdnias said: "This is your husband, this your child." Kleoniki was forced into the battle of Vitsi. She deserted and got back to her villagewithout her children. In Fourka Konitsa, the villagers learned in advance of the guerrillas' abduction plans. They hid the children in ditches. The guerrillas, frustrated, took Sofia Makri and 20 other mothers to the mountains and tortured them. Said Sofia last week: "They hung us from pine trees. They burned our feet with coals. They beat us. When we fainted they revived us with cold water from the spring. Fourteen of us died up there but we did not tell. When the Greek army entered our village they found the dead living, for out of the earth came our children."

There is no evidence that the Greek children living in Communist countries are physically abused. International Red Cross investigators have seen some of the children and reported that they are well fed. They are being schooled as young Communists and they are expected to feel and show enthusiasm. Said a U.N. delegate in despair: "In ten years there will be no abducted Greek children; they will have been absorbed."

Time Magazine;
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,811653,00.html?promoid=googlep





And from the U.N........


RESOLUTION ADOPTED BY THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF THE U.N DURING ITS FOURTH SESSION.

THREATS TO THE POLITICAL INDEPENDENCE AND TERRITORIAL INTEGRITY OF GREECE - 288 (IV) (18 November 1949)


Noting the report submitted by the International Committee of the Red Cross and the League of the Red Cross Societies on the question of the repatriation of Greek children on the question of the repatriation of Greek children and expressing warm appreciation of the efforts made by the two International Red Cross organizations to facilitate the implementation of General Assembly resolution 193 (III) C,


Noting that the Greek children have not as yet been returned to their homes....

...2.Urges all the Members of the United Nations and other States harbouring the Greek children to make all necessary arrangements, in consultation and co-operation with the international Red Cross organizations,for the early return to their homes of the children with the aforementioned resolution;





They can come back as Greeks as they used to be, not as Tito's makiniods.

--------------------------------------------

http://www.hellenicplanet.com/forums


    
This message has been edited by Arxileas on Mar 17, 2009 11:30 AM


 
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akritas
(Login akritas2)
Greece Forum Mods Group

Re: A positive Greek initiative towards Balkan reconciliation

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March 17 2009, 3:23 PM 

Carla as I see you continue to act as flamerator and not as moderator.
Why ?

You post an article of 2003 with out to give a link.

Well here the link....

http://www.maknews.com/html/articles/begalci/out_of_exile.html

Is the nationalist Skopjan site of Lubi Uzunovski that promote racism and hate among the people.








 
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Epicurus
(Login panos01)

Re: A positive Greek initiative towards Balkan reconciliation

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March 19 2009, 5:57 AM 

Without getting into the petty "there are no ethnic Macedonians" lets be clear that it obviously is in reference to the people who are not Greek Macedonians but elect to go by the same name.

It is always good when a nation can look back at its history and admit to making mistakes, especially without being forced by the international community to do so.

There were people exiled from Greece and there was a Greece for Greeks only sentiment for a while, allowing refuges to return is a positive step and all Balkan, and European nations who have not already done so should take similar steps.

The future of Europe, if it is to have one, is through harmony and integration. Not nationalism and ethnocentrism.

 
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Carla Del Ponte
(Login CARLADELPONTE)
Albania Forum Mods Group

Epicurus - a perfect candidate for a new mod on the Balkan Forums

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March 24 2009, 11:32 PM 

Dear Epicurus, Yasu

Thank you for you well balanced and OBJECTIVE response. I truly appreciate it.
You are a breath of fresh air on the slowly wilting Balkan Forums. Unfortunately lack of freedom of expression is gradually leading to self-annihilation of our forums. I must admit we moderators are partially responsible for this sad state of affairs.


Dear ZATAMAN , Dear fellow moderators,

I put forward the candidacy of EPICURUS for ALL BALKAN MODERATOR as a recognition of his respect for democracy and freedom of speech.
His unique moderating/diplomatic skills coupled with excellent command of English will certainly eradicate solipsistic, flavored with parochial nationalism monologues which seem to replace a constructive debating on our - once very vibrant - Balkan Forums.

Please, feel free to post your expressions of support to my proposal.

Kind regards,
Carla

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Anonymous
(Login Ellinaki)

Re: A positive Greek initiative towards Balkan reconciliation

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March 25 2009, 1:13 AM 

No thanxs Carla. We know nothing about him we dont want reapeats of greekslav again, maybe he is greekslav? happy.gif current moderators are good & best ever why change?. The turkish forum needs help happy.gif

I vote you out carla youre a trouble maker & you are no Greek

 
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Carla Del Ponte
(Login CARLADELPONTE)
Albania Forum Mods Group

Regarding Epicurus

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March 25 2009, 6:56 AM 

Dear Greek friends, guests and fellow-moderators,

Thank you very much for expressing your opinion in a fair and democratic manner.
I commit myself to respecting it.

Vote for EPICURUS becoming a new moderator on the Balkan Forums:

for the motion -1
against -1


regards,
Carla

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Niklianos
(Login Nikilianos)
Greece Forum Mods Group

Re: A positive Greek initiative towards Balkan reconciliation

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March 25 2009, 11:05 PM 

2 votes against!

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the mods we have right now!

Why is it you continue to make postings without doing a little and simple research first? If you did you would have known that what you have posted is an insult to TRUE DEMOCRACY and CIVILITY! You posted an article that mentions 28,000 'Ethnic Macedonian' children being forced from Greece. This is pure propaganda from the FYROM extreme diaspora and sad that someone from Italy would even post such a thing. It is well known and HEAVILY documented that these children were GREEK children and they were abducted.

Almost every article you have posted in this forum the past several months has been of this kind and we are tired of it. It is one thing to dislike Greeks but to pretend to be a neutral party when it comes to the issues between Greece and FYROM is something quite laughable.

I have always been one of the voices of civility in this forum and plan to continue as such, but I cannot stand by and watch you continuously throw something in the Greeks faces!

We expect an apology for this post, at least, due to your ignorance on the matter if for nothing else!

 
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akritas
(Login akritas2)
Greece Forum Mods Group

Re: A positive Greek initiative towards Balkan reconciliation

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March 26 2009, 2:00 AM 

3 votes against
+1 for Nikilianos post.

 
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Carla Del Ponte
(Login CARLADELPONTE)
Albania Forum Mods Group

Zetaman - the ultimate decison maker on these forums

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March 26 2009, 8:52 AM 

Dear fellow moderators,

Thank you for your participation.
Of course I will respect your votes although I am somewhat surprised you are not prepared to give him/her a chance.

Please, keep in mind that the final decision regarding Epicurus's nomination belongs to the Owner and Chief Administrator of these forums - ZETAMAN.

Dear Epicurus, would you drop a line or two about yourself, please.

Best regards to you all,
Carla

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Arxileas
(Login Arxileas)
Greece Forum Mods Group

Re: A positive Greek initiative towards Balkan reconciliation

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March 26 2009, 11:48 AM 

Dear foreign guest Moderator Carla.

Why are you going to fast ?

We havent addressed the keys issue here. The vote for an additional Mod is irrelevant here and am against it also so its a NO, as we are full as it is and its the other forums who need new or active additional Mods not the Elliniko forum.

Key issues here is YOU now Carla.

1) You posted propaganda articles without providing a links or sources to them in order to insult us and your behaviour on here breaks the forums rules see the rules also you did it out of the blue which is unlike you, so it smells of an agenda.

2) Youre not complying with us and you are not complying with the Moderator rules on Moderators behaviour, nor did you ever when you were called by us to address key issues as a neutral moderator (I doubt it youre even neutral now). But you have with the Fyromian and Turkish Mods why ? Smells of biased moderating on your part when blind eye is turned on others, the key instigators of the Elliniko forum.

3) Your refusing to acknowledge this honest mistake ? or was it a driven agenda ? I mean nothing else seems to explain your behaviour now.

4) Foreigners do not vote like all the designated forums, so your vote doesn't count because you are a foreigner. You're supposed to be a neutral one ???


I also agree with Nikilianos's last post 100 %


4 votes against




Let's address the key issues now.


    
This message has been edited by Arxileas on Mar 26, 2009 12:44 PM


 
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Arxileas
(Login Arxileas)
Greece Forum Mods Group

Re: A positive Greek initiative towards Balkan reconciliation

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March 26 2009, 11:50 AM 

Further more, do we need to remind you of the Moderator rules on Moderator behaviour to follow ?


    
This message has been edited by Arxileas on Mar 26, 2009 12:34 PM


 
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Epicurus
(Login panos01)

Re: A positive Greek initiative towards Balkan reconciliation

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March 26 2009, 2:36 PM 

I believe we need less moderators, some need to go. In the Greek forum it appears there are more moderators than members. This is true of other forums to.
I certainly do not want the responsibility to moderate, I am quite content with posting my piece. I also am not on often enough to moderate, my time constraints would make me ineffective. Besides, I do not believe in censorship - even for comments that may raise eyebrows, because how does one discharge the power of censorship responsibly? We all have biases, we cannot act as if we don't, nor can we know the extent of our ignorance (Huxley for example was a great and enlightened mind at the time, but was a racist by today's standards). So all must be free to say as they will, that is the only way we can have true free speech.

That aside, I would like to see an open thread where we can discuss the rules that moderators should be governed by: I think too many things are censored just because of peoples personal beliefs or political sensitivities, or history with a particular person.
Moderators often use there position to settle feuds with members and often act in there interest rather than the interest of honest and free discourse.
I personally believe nothing should be censored or deleted no matter what, unless the following are broken:
- Peoples personal details are given without consent, or
- A post is made that exclusively makes derogatory comments about a person. (This does not include 'attacking' of ones beliefs, but only the person). Or to summarise, no idea is sacred and beyond criticism.

Perhaps people would like to discuss what they like or dislike about this proposal.

 
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Arxileas
(Login Arxileas)
Greece Forum Mods Group

Re: A positive Greek initiative towards Balkan reconciliation

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March 26 2009, 2:55 PM 

Dear fellow Greek Mods.

The real and only issue here is the behaviour of a Foreign Moderator these past months which blatantly violates the Balkan forum rules as a Moderator and is unacceptable between civilized people and nations. And this person refuses to cooperate.

We abide from the owners rules being ZETAMAN, we do not create our own rules to suit then start a poll to avoid blame by shifting the agenda, like it has happened here I suspect.


Additional;

Epicurus we aren't ignoring you, we strongly believe the real issue here is with the topic starters blatant disregard for our culture without doing a proper research nor providing any source or links when requested """not co operating"" and at the same time violating the rules as a Moderator with anti Hellenic propagandas one example.




    
This message has been edited by Arxileas on Mar 26, 2009 3:38 PM


 
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Carla Del Ponte
(Login CARLADELPONTE)
Albania Forum Mods Group

ZETAMAN - homo nulli coloris

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March 26 2009, 3:42 PM 

Dear Epicurus,

Thank you for your poignant post confirming my high opinion about your respect for the moral and intellectual values. In a few sentences you encapsulated all shortcomings of the way these forums are run.
Considering your impartiality, broadmindedness and brilliance in articulating your thoughts I hope you will reconsider becoming a moderator on ALL BALKAN FORUMS. You are a true champion of democracy, humanism and freedom of speech. Your presence and opinions would immensely enrich all of us despite our occasional disagreements. People like you are desperately needed here to revive our forums. Your ethnic origin is irrelevant. Applying any restrictions based on the ethnic origin of moderators on any forum bears hallmarks of the infamous Nuremberg Laws.

Kind regards,
Carla






Dear Arxileas,

Thank you for casting your vote.
I profoundly appreciate your personal opinion about "modus operandi" of the Balkan Forum and its moderators in a civil, non-confrontational manner.
I would like to emphasize that I do not discriminate against any ethnic group. Zetaman is very well aware of that and entrusted me with very difficult and demanding moderating duties across all Balkan Forums.
I do respect all moderators on the Balkan Forum regardless of their ethnicity or faith (or lack of). I am sure that as my fellow-moderator, fellow-European and gentleman you can reciprocate the same attitude.
I would like to assure you that I respect your views and it is not my intention to undermine your
(or anybody's for that matter) position on this forum.

Knowing Zataman's impartiality and his unshakable adherence to the principles of democracy and justice I AM ABSOLUTELY CONVINCED that he will take into consideration your remarks regarding my proposal to elevate Epicurus to the role of a moderator on ALL BALKAN forums.

Kind regards,
Carla



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Niklianos
(Login Nikilianos)
Greece Forum Mods Group

Re: A positive Greek initiative towards Balkan reconciliation

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March 26 2009, 7:35 PM 

Why is there a need for any new moderator in the Balkans Forums, except for the Mak and Turkish forums. Those forums have extremist and racist moderating them who have continuously entered the Greek forum to insult our members and Greeks in general!

Epicurus,

believe me when I say this is not a personal issue we have with you, quite the contrary. This forum is very slow right now and that is the reason there are more mods than members participating. This forum went through the ringer and back not too long ago and we cleaned it up. We were continuously bombarded with personal and racist attacks by members and mods from the Mak and Turks forums and absolutely NOTHING was done by our dear Carla. They were not just attacking beliefs but us personally. They even attacked myself and I have always remained civil and never once insulted them. They don't really care about that though. Those same people who continuously insulted us and made continuous racist remarks against Greeks are what drove this forum to the ground and not the lack of freedom of speech. We were and are the only forum which had a 'No Deletion' policy so that way Zetaman and Carla could see the post being made against the Greeks. We even gave a 3 warning system to the instigators and asked them to remain civil while posting. Did they? NO! Did Carla act in support of us against these racist? No!

For a very long time in this forum we have required that if you were going to post an article that it be provided with a source, as that is the only way to allow for others to check it for accuracy and the only way for proper discourse to occur.

Don't judge the forum by what you see today but judge it by the b.s we had to endure just for being Greeks over the past 5 years in this forum!

 
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Niklianos
(Login Nikilianos)
Greece Forum Mods Group

Re: A positive Greek initiative towards Balkan reconciliation

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March 26 2009, 7:46 PM 

Why is it Carla that you are ignoring my post? Was it insulting? Was it racist? NO to all!

We have always asked for sources to be given in order to be fair and balanced and to see if the article is from a legitimate news or academic source or just one from a propaganda source! What you posted was shown by Akritas to have been from one of the ultra national sources. Arxileas even posted a neutral source referring to the 28,000 children who were kidnapped from Greece and their parents. Yet, you completely ignored the issue! Why? I have been wrong about something before on this forum and I was the first to admit it!

Why can't you, a neutral, observer take the step to admit you were wrong about it and to post such an extremist and propagandist article from a known propagandist site?

You talk of civility but yet you ignore and cannot enter into civil discourse? If you believe the article is not from a propagandist site or the "Paidomazoma(Child taking)" is as the article states, then why do you not defend your position?

I challenge you to discuss this issue further instead of ignoring it. If you are truly a neutral party then you should also be able to defend your posting of an article which was written by a FYROM extremist of their diaspora and one that is directly insulting to ALL Greeks.

 
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Carla Del Ponte
(Login CARLADELPONTE)
Albania Forum Mods Group

Et volia justement comme on ecrit l'historie !!!

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March 27 2009, 2:11 AM 




Dear Guests and moderators regardless of your ethnic origin,

I salute the Greek government for this brave, humanitarian decision of allowing those displaced people (who had to leave their homeland for whatever reasons - please respect my neutrality) to return to the country of their birth.

It should send a strong and clear message to all Balkan states especially in former Yugoslavia where I worked for UNHCR and IRC in the 90's experiencing first hand pathological/irrational destructive consequences of inter-Balkan tribal hatred and nationalism in its most primitive and barbaric forms.

Kind regards,
Carla


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Niklianos
(Login Nikilianos)
Greece Forum Mods Group

Re: A positive Greek initiative towards Balkan reconciliation

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March 27 2009, 6:47 AM 

Carla,

if you would have only posted an article discussing the loosening of restrictions against those former communist fighters and their offspring, we would not be having this discussion right now! Instead you posted an article which stated that the 28,000 children of the Paidomazoma(Child Gathering) were actually forced by the Greek government out of their homes and away from their parents into the Communist Block countries.

This is a blatant lie and pure propaganda emanating from the Former Yugoslav Republic. As Arxileas has already posted you can see neutral sources on the reality of the situation! Those children were kidnapped from their homes and parents and were taken to various Communist Block countries to be brainwashed into good little communist who hated the west and Greece. The argument from the FYROM side is that the Greeks have always forced assimilation on non-Greeks and that the Greeks are in fact not Greeks but Turks, Albanians, Slavs, etc.

If this is the case then why would the Greek government in 1949 force 28,000 children out of their homes and send them to communist countries and especially Yugoslavia where much of the support from the communist side during the Greek Civil War originated? Wouldn't it make more sense to keep those 28,000 children and turn them into good Greeks? It would be completely counter-productive for the Greek government to commit such an act!

So once more I appeal to your human decency in the matter and ask for a simple apology for the mistake. If you are truly neutral this will be an easy gesture for you to perform. If you do not, then we know how 'neutral' you really are and that you are a hypocrite.

 
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