NHL Home Ice has him in top 10 all time below:
1. Orr. 2. Harvey 3. Potvin 4. Shore 5. Horton 6. Robinson 7. Bourque 8. Chelios 9. Niedermayer 10. Stevens

cavaet is Lindstrom goes in when he retires

arguements for leetch, pronger, coffey, macinnis, clancy, park, kelly, savard, white

is niedermayer top 5? top 10? or top 20?

Top 3 orr harvey and potvin who all could dominate hockey games at will when they were on ice in different eras. After that I like Stevens but it is a style thing to me. Nidermayer won at every level of hockey he played. definite top 15 in my books.

Top 5 toughest dmen who could play d, hit, fight, score
1. Stevens 2. Shore 3. Harvey 4. Pronger 5. Bouchard

That list is a joke.... Pronger is just outside the top-20, and Niedermayer is around 40


1. Bobby Orr
2. Doug Harvey
3. Ray Bourque
4. Nicklas Lidstrom
5. Eddie Shore
6. Red Kelly
7. Denis Potvin
8. Vyacheslav Fetisov
9. Larry Robinson
10. Chris Chelios
11. Sprague Cleghorn
12. Brad Park
13. Paul Coffey
14. King Clancy
15. Pierre Pilote
16. Hod Stuart
17. Earl Seibert
18. Tim Horton
19. Bill Gadsby
20. Dit Clapper
21. Al MacInnis
22. Borje Salming
23. Chris Pronger
24. Mike Grant
25. Brian Leetch
26. Bill Quackenbush
27. Eddie Gerard
28. Mark Howe
29. Valery Vasiliev
30. J.C. Tremblay
31. Zdeno Chara
32. Jack Stewart
33. Ernie Johnson
34. Serge Savard
35. Rod Langway
36. Guy Lapointe
37. George Boucher
38. Ching Johnson
39. Scott Niedermayer
40. Larry Murphy

Whoops, forgot Scott Stevens. Put him right after Chris Pronger

Bourque and Lidstrom come on f*ck get real they were both pussy puck movers.

I never saw shore so cant comment but Orr Harvey and Potvin could control games by themselves. When they were on ice nobody else could stop them.

Stevens was tough no doubt but lacked skill to play with best all time.

Robinson I would put 4th.

Niedermayer ONLY player EVER to win

Memorial Cup, World Junior, World Championship, Worl Cup, Olympic gold and 4 Stanley Cups

Because he is very understated and private he never got attention he deserved. He dominated in his own way. He is right up there in top 5 with Harvey Orr Potvin and big bird.

Who is Best today with shot to get on list? doughty?

Niedermayer only had 4 good seasons. Other than that, he was just an average #1 defenseman.

Bourque and Lidstrom ar so far out of his league that it is an insult to even compare them.

Top 60 Defensemen of All-Time
Rank No. Player Height Weight Born Died Career Nationality
1 4 Bobby Orr 6'0" 199 1948 1966-1979 Canada
2 2 Doug Harvey 5'11" 190 1924 1989 1947-1969 Canada
3 77 Raymond Bourque 6'0" 219 1960 1979-2001 Canada
4 2 Eddie Shore 5'11" 194 1902 1985 1924-1944 Canada
5 5 Nicklas Lidström 6'2" 190 1970 1991-Present Sweden
6 5 Denis Potvin 6'0" 205 1953 1973-1988 Canada
7 4 Leonard "Red" Kelly 6'0" 195 1927 1947-1967 Canada
8 2 Viacheslav Fetisov 6'1" 215 1958 1974-1998 Russia
9 19 Larry Robinson 6'3" 220 1951 1972-1992 Canada
10 24 Chris Chelios 6'1" 190 1962 1983-2010 USA
11 22 Brad Park 6'0" 190 1948 1968-1985 Canada
12 7 Francis "King" Clancy 5'7" 155 1903 1986 1921-1937 Canada
13 7 Paul Coffey 6'0" 200 1961 1980-2001 Canada
14 3 Pierre Pilote 5'10" 178 1931 1955-1969 Canada
15 6 Sprague Cleghorn 5'10" 190 1890 1956 1910-1928 Canada
16 17 Earl Seibert 6'2' 198 1911 1990 1931-1946 Canada
17 7 Tim Horton 5'10' 180 1930 1974 1949-1974 Canada
18 2 Al MacInnis 6'2" 204 1963 1981-2004 Canada
19 4 Scott Stevens 6'2" 215 1964 1982-2004 Canada
20 44 Chris Pronger 6'6' 220 1974 1994-Present Canada
21 4 Bill Gadsby 6'0' 180 1927 1946-1966 Canada
22 21 Börje Salming 6'1" 193 1951 1970-1993 Sweden
23 2 Brian Leetch 6'0" 185 1968 1987-2006 USA
24 5 Aubrey "Dit" Clapper 6'2" 195 1907 1978 1927-1947 Canada
25 6 Valeri Vasiliev 5'11" 187 1949 1966-1984 Russia
26-T 2 Mark Howe 5'11" 185 1955 1973-1995 USA
26-T 11 Bill Quackenbush 5'11" 190 1922 1999 1942-1956 Canada
28 18 Serge Savard 6'3" 210 1946 1966-1983 Canada
29 5 Rod Langway 6'3" 218 1957 1977-1993 USA
30 8 Eddie Gerard 5'9" 168 1890 1937 1913-1923 Canada
31 2 Jack Stewart 5'10" 190 1917 1983 1938-1952 Canada
32 5 Guy Lapointe 6'0" 205 1948 1968-1984 Canada
33 27 Scott Niedermayer 6'1" 194 1973 1992-2010 Canada
34 3 Marcel Pronovost 6'0" 190 1930 1950-1970 Canada
35 Lionel Conacher 6'2" 195 1901 1954 1925-1937 Canada
36 William "Hod" Stuart 6'0" 190 1879 1907 1902-1907 Canada
37 3 Ivan "Ching" Johnson 5'11" 210 1898 1979 1926-1938 Canada
38 2 Jacques Laperrière 6'2" 190 1941 1962-1974 Canada
39 7 Alexei Kasatonov 6'1" 215 1959 1976–1997 Russia
40 3 Jean-Claude Tremblay 5'11 170 1939 1994 1960-1979 Canada
41 Ernest "Moose" Johnson 5'11 185 1896 1963 1905-1931 Canada
42 33 Zdeno Chára 6'9" 255 1977 1998-Present Slovakia
43 5 Ebbie Goodfellow 6'0" 175 1907 1985 1929-1943 Canada
44 4 Rob Blake 6'4" 220 1969 1990-2010 Canada
45 3 Emile "Butch" Bouchard 6'2" 205 1919 1941-1956 Canada
46 2 Carl Brewer 5'9" 180 1938 2001 1958-1980 Canada
47 1 Albert "Babe" Siebert 5'10" 182 1904 1939 1925-1939 Canada
48 Georges "Buck" Boucher 5'9 169 1896 1960 1915-1932 Canada
49 17 Jan Suchý 5'8 169 1944 1963-1983 Czech
50 55 Larry Murphy 6'2" 210 1961 1980-2001 Canada
51 17 Ken Reardon 5'10" 180 1921 2008 1940-1950 Canada
52 10 Tom Johnson 6'0" 180 1928 2007 1950-1965 Canada
53 Lester Patrick 6'1" 180 1883 1960 1903-1927 Canada
54 2 Art Coulter 5'11" 185 1909 2000 1932-1942 Canada
55 24 Doug Wilson 6'1" 187 1957 1977-1993 Canada
56 2 Sylvio Mantha 5'10" 178 1902 1974 1923-1936 Canada
57 Harry Cameron 5'10" 155 1890 1953 1912-1926 Canada
58 60 František Pospíšil 6'0" 176 1944 1961-1978 Czech
59 26 Allan Stanley 6'1" 170 1926 1948-1969 Canada
60 Harvey Pulford 5'11" 200 1875 1940 1893-1908 Canada

Bourque and Lindstrom were not complete defense. A great defense needs to hit people and fight occasionally. Same with Niedermayer. They are all great players but I'd rather have Niedermayer on my defense. Flat out he is a winner. His record stands out alone.

I am an oldtimer so I know Orr could skate through any team whenever he wanted but Shore and Harvey could do it all. Potvin and Robinson next closest.

Bourque and Lidstrom ar so far out of his league that it is an insult to even compare them.

Bourque
What have his teams ever won because of him? sfa

Lidstrom
His teams won because of the players on the team not him

Chara will be higher up that list after a few more good years, especially if the Bruins stay together. Look at how many of the greats were on the Habs teams of the 50's and 60's. What an embarrassment of riches! It'll be nice to see a few of the kids who we loved in the GTHL the last few years make it on this list in the years to come.

^^ Lidstrom His teams won because of the players on the team not him


Not the dumbest comment all time on N54 but pretty damn close.

Bourque's was one of the best play-off performers of all time. His teams were not good enough to win. His 19 post season all-star selections are almost double the next guy. Only a few guys have 10 or more.

11:36 0 for 2

11:36 has the right stuff to replace Dudley as Burkie's new assistant.

Brad Park was far superior to Borque & in his day 2nd only to Orr

Even if you erase Orr from the Norris voting, Park doesn't even approach Bourque's level of dominance.

Bourque was a 5-time Norris winner and a 19-time post-season All-Star... and he did that during the best era for defensemen ever.

May 30, 7:37

Bourque and Lindstrom were not complete defense. A great defense needs to hit people and fight occasionally.

Oh I thought a great D needed to minimize the other teams scoring chances, create offense when possible and lead their teams to victory. In Lidstrom's case the 7 Norris wins, 1 Conn Smythe win and 1142 points confirm he can do the first 2 better then anyone in his era and the 4 Stanley Cups and 20 straight playoff appearances confirm the 3rd. And to quote someone, Scotty Bowman, way smarter in hockey then either of us:

Bowman says Lidstrom and Raymond Bourque were two of the best at patrolling the offensive blueline.

“They always made right decision to keep the puck in, to take the right shot at the net,” Bowman said. “Very seldom did they take chances. Their stats are so good offensively and it was not just fabricated from taking chances.”

Bowman coached both Lidstrom and the man he is usually compared with in the argument about who was the second-best defenceman of all time, Doug Harvey. It is hard to compare them, Bowman said, because they played in different eras, with Harvey spending most of his Hall of Fame career with the Montreal Canadiens in the 1950s before finishing up in 1969 at the age of 45 with Bowman and the St. Louis Blues. Those were mostly the pre-Orr years, when NHL coaches did not allow their defencemen much latitude to play offensively.

However, Bowman said, there were similarities in that neither player was caught up the ice, both rarely made the wrong decision with the puck along the blueline and both were skilled passers.

“They controlled the game,” Bowman said. “They both had the same concept: The resulting play they made was not to give the puck away. They made plays. They had the ability to control the game, mainly because of their ability to pass the puck at the right time and play the point.

“When I look at a defenceman, when he gets the puck, what is the resulting play? Does his team keep the puck or does the other team get it? Over 95 per cent of time, when Lidstrom had the puck, one of his teammates got it.”

Guy Lapointe should be higher. He was every bit as good as Larry Robinson. No wonder those Hab teams in the 70s dominated. No team in history had top 3 D who could compare with:

Guy Lapointe
Larry Robinson
Serge Savard

I'd put all 3 in the top 20,

328 bang on Habs rule
Lindstrom and Niedermayer both top 10
Bourque very good but not top 10

Here is where Ray Bourque ranked in Norris Trophy voting: 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 4th, 4th, 7th, 7th

The only guys who are even close to that are Bobby Orr, Doug Harvey, and Nicklas Lidstrom. Eddie Shore obviously has no Norris record, since he played long before it was introduced, but he did play most of his career with All-Star voting, and his All-Star voting record is good enough to get him into this group.

That is your essentially undisputable top-5. (Orr, Harvey, Bourque, Lidstom, and Shore)

Denis Potvin, Red Kelly, Larry Robinson, Brad Park, anc Chris Chelios have very impressive voting records, but nothing like the 5 above them. Vyacheslav Fetisov is tough, since he played in Russia, but he went head to head with guys like Bourque and Coffey, and looked just as good.




Just to show how weak Niedermayer really is copared to those guys, here is his voting record: 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 5th, 10th, 10th. That's it.

^ hard to argue with that other then how to place 2 through 5. Bobby Orr is not only the best D man of all time but possibly the best player.

agreed but norris trophy is an nhl decision based on pick of 3 guys to get it. It is given not earned. Stanley cups much better indicator of a hockey player. borque is NOT top 5 material.

Stanley Cup has nothing to do with an individual player. The best teams win championships.

Bourque was an animal in the play-offsn leading defenswmen in scoring 4 times. He carried his teams to the finals twice. He was, at 40 years old, Colarado's #1 defenseman when they won the cup.

Is Bob Turner better than Bourque? He has lots of cups!

8:14 is clearly a Leaf Nation zombie.

...knows SFA about hockey.

There are VERY VERY few guys who are great players, control flow of games by themselves and carry their teams to CUPS. When you apply those charateristics you get down to a very select few - shore, harvey, orr and potvin - thats it. potvin is slightly iffy.

There are many great players - they are in the Hall of Fame for the most part although their are some wierd choices there to - you are talking about players who can best be described as one of a kind in their generation or exceptional or players that define their position. And no - Potvin wasn't one of them - he was just fucking great!

dude, you've been smoking way too much potvin.

What about Jim McKenney, Brian Glennie and Mike Pelyk?

drunks of all time list for them

^ Sanderson

Please do not mention Stevens in any TOP list, come on now ! Bill Hajt was better than him

Stevens was a head hunter, it's easy to do when you're a big guy.

Come on Stevens was pretty good. Not top 25 like they rate him but pretty good.

I'm a big Lidstrom fan but to me he is sort of like the Jean Belliveau of his generation. Pure class and dignity, a winner, an excellent leader, gives and exudes respect.

But Belliveau was no Richard. No Howe. Certainly no Lemieux or Gretzky. You'd love your kid to be like Belliveau and Lidstrom as a human being, but you realize that a small number of players were better.

Take Shore. He won 3 league MVP awards. Pure game changer. Orr won 2 cups and scored the cup winning goal both times. Harvey had the ability to single handedly dictate the speed of the game. Potvin decided what a game needed and brought it with apparent ease. You name it, he brought it.

Richard, Howe, Gretzky and Lemieux had the capacity to own games. Among defenceman, Shore, Harvey, Orr and Potvin
also could own games.

I love Lidstrom but he's second tier.

Oh, and Niedermayer doesn't rate. He's somewhere between 25-50 all time.

Shore had 4 MVPs, not 3.

Agree with much about what you said but Lidstrom is no 2nd tier. He is top 5 all time even if you concede the 4 you mentioned are all better..............and I don't. I would put him 3rd overall behind Orr and Harvey. No one in the top 5 or 6 is 2nd tier.

who started this thread?

niedermayers mother?

Is this the Niedermayer we are talking about?

yep

Lindstrom and niedermayer are both great players and pure gentlemen. Not in top 5 though. Top guys could do it all. These 2 had no physical presence.

Lidstrom was elite offensively and defensively. Physicality is a part of the game, but not nearly as important as the first two.

Niedermayer was not elite in any aspect of the game other than skating.

What about Barry Melrose?

best hair and bubble gum chewer ever!!

6:24 Lindstrom and niedermayer are both great players and pure gentlemen. Not in top 5 though. Top guys could do it all. These 2 had no physical presence.

OK this is getting dumber by the minute. Who cares if Lidstrom has a "physical presence" if you can't get the puck by him and can't score when he's on the ice and he played against the best on the other team AND he scores going the other way. Is Don Cherry writing your comments? Lidstrom isn't top 5.......he is top 3. You are right about neidermayer though. He's top 35 at best.

Mark Howe finished his career with a totally insane career plus/minus of something like plus 450. If your measuring stick is nobody scores when he's on the ice, you'd take Howe.

But there's more to it. And the "more" is why Howe doesn't crack the top 20. Just as Lidstrom doesn't belong with Orr, shore, Harvey and potvin.

Potvin top 5? Larry Robinson and even Salming were better than Potvin. Potvin is top 5 where the list includes Coqauvin.

lol

usa today senior writer published his top 5 yesterday
1. orr 2. harvey 3. lindstrom 4. shore 5. potvin
lindstrom and potvin both in top 5

do not forget bourque who got an honorable mention at 6th

June 5 8:54 said "Mark Howe finished his career with a totally insane career plus/minus of something like plus 450. If your measuring stick is nobody scores when he's on the ice, you'd take Howe.

But there's more to it. And the "more" is why Howe doesn't crack the top 20. Just as Lidstrom doesn't belong with Orr, shore, Harvey and potvin."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You don't need to take my word for Lidstrom being in a category with all of those guys (except Orr who should have his own category). Every knowledgable hockey writer, coach, commentator and player puts him there. 7 Norris wins, 1 Conn Smythe and 4 Stanley Cups put him there, his +/- puts him there, his regular season and playoff points totals put him there. Simply put there is no single category he is weak in and he excels in every measurement except throwing big hits. BTW Howe is + 400 His PIM are 455 and Lidstrom is + 450 with 514 PIM. Potvin was + 460. You are right +/- is not an all inclusive stat but it forms part of the players overall picture.

I was listening to Howie and some loaf from Jersey today on Home Ice and those guys know nothing about hockey. They think Niedermayer is top 10 all time including all positions. Potvin then says well i dont know about that one but he was an all time top 10 exceptional skater with speed of orr.

Those guys have orr, lindstrom, potvin, niedermayer, robinson and borque as top 6 of modern era.

that looks pretty good.

Todd Gill, top ten!

lol!

Home Ice is Sirius radio US based. They like the skaters and puck movers.
I would agree with Potvin, Niedermayer is one of best edge skaters the nhl has ever seen.